Prayer before meetings?

[Koala]

Prayer is not ever appropriate before public, political meetings. Even the watered-down inclusive prayers to "Higher Power" or "Father/Mother." Plenty of people don't believe and/or don't pray, and prayer sets the tone for division, rather than reflection or community-building. I'm a Christian who prays regularly, but I would never be comfortable participating in a prayer with people whose faith I don't know, or who may be feeling coerced/silenced.

I'll even be the fly in the ointment and say that I wouldn't be comfortable with a pledge, either. Forced participation, no matter how innocuous, just rubs me the wrong way.

Well said.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This debate has come up in my local paper because the local council and the Scottish Parliament both start off their sittings with a prayer or "reflection" from some religious type. Usually a Christian, not always. But the English made a new rule banning this. There's been calls for us to follow suit up here, especially as we might face a legal challenge.

FJists' views on prayer starting a political meeting?

I do not think civic meetings should start with a prayer of any kind.

My local county board starts every meeting with a prayer and in fact they will ask for God (and occasionally explicitly Jesus) to give them wisdom. They do this at the start of the meeting, so those of us there for public comment have to sit through it. I just don't look down or close my eyes, and wait for it to end.

All I can say is, considering the track record of that board, Jesus is not listening :)

[nimerha]

I'll even be the fly in the ointment and say that I wouldn't be comfortable with a pledge, either. Forced participation, no matter how innocuous, just rubs me the wrong way.

I actually agree with that - in any other setting. Companies, government agencies, schools (especially schools!) - none of these should ever have any kind of a forced pledge, imho. Politicians are a whore another ballgame though. These people - especially high profile ones like members of the parliament or even higher, and depending on where you are - already have to do some kind of a promise (sorry, not a native speaker and the correct wording is escaping me) at the beginning of their terms, and this pledge and commitment should be (in a perfect world) the first focus and driving force for everything they do in office. So, I see nothing wrong in requiring them to acknowledge and remember that first thing every day. At any point, if they are uncomfortable or unwilling to do this, well - nobody is stopping them from stepping down and away.

[snarkbillie]

They do it here. My friend who is a Christian minister got all bent out of shape when he was asked because he was handed a list of rules, one of which said you can't mention Jesus. I think it annoyed him. I don't understand how it's not still a Christian prayer when you're allowed to say God every 30 seconds if you want to. They said saying "God" was more inclusive. I think we should be really inclusive and just quit praying during pubic stuff, but that won't fly here.

[margiebargie]

I actually agree with that - in any other setting. Companies, government agencies, schools (especially schools!) - none of these should ever have any kind of a forced pledge, imho. Politicians are a whore another ballgame though. These people - especially high profile ones like members of the parliament or even higher, and depending on where you are - already have to do some kind of a promise (sorry, not a native speaker and the correct wording is escaping me) at the beginning of their terms, and this pledge and commitment should be (in a perfect world) the first focus and driving force for everything they do in office. So, I see nothing wrong in requiring them to acknowledge and remember that first thing every day. At any point, if they are uncomfortable or unwilling to do this, well - nobody is stopping them from stepping down and away.

Oh they certainly are.

[dawbs]

I actually agree with that - in any other setting. Companies, government agencies, schools (especially schools!) - none of these should ever have any kind of a forced pledge, imho. Politicians are a whore another ballgame though. These people - especially high profile ones like members of the parliament or even higher, and depending on where you are - already have to do some kind of a promise (sorry, not a native speaker and the correct wording is escaping me) at the beginning of their terms, and this pledge and commitment should be (in a perfect world) the first focus and driving force for everything they do in office. So, I see nothing wrong in requiring them to acknowledge and remember that first thing every day. At any point, if they are uncomfortable or unwilling to do this, well - nobody is stopping them from stepping down and away.

You may not realize that the US pledge was changed, intentionally, during the 'red scares' of the 50's to be worded in such a way that it would force anyone who was an atheist to 'step down' and walk away.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The pledge was written by a socialist, right? With no God bit originally?

Yes. It originally came with a Nazi-esque right hand salute in many places, too. The God bit was added in the 50's to make sure that everyone knows that we Americans aren't godless like those evil Commies in the USSR.

That said, in 2012 a lot of the rhetoric about the pledge has to do with the God bit. If you are willing to say the pledge but stay silent for that line, and people notice, that's already subversive. Heaven forbid you say you think that line should be taken back out, because normal Americans are Christian, dammit, and you shouldn't have a problem with it.

I have a problem with forcing the pledge in schools partly because overt patriotism just disturbs me often anyway[1] and the plain fact is that lots of students in the schools, perfectly legal residents of our community and fully permitted to attend the schools, are NOT US citizens and it makes no sense for them to pledge allegiance to the US flag.

[1] Lately there's been heated letters to the editor about some comments a local radio broadcaster made against saying the pledge and singing the anthem at every single event ever, pointing out that in plenty of other countries, such as Germany (where he's lived much of his life) it's just an alien concept nowadays or it's controversial, due to historical reasons. Hordes of letter writers just cannot seem to believe that in fact, yes, in lots of places, the idea of expressing patriotism and nationalism at every opportunity is just not a "thing" that's done. We all know what country we're in. We're not in danger of forgetting.

[nimerha]

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand I find it...unsettling, because I don't like when Church & State are mixed. I wouldn't be comfortable if I felt like I had to participate in someone else's culture or prayers so why should they be made to potentially feel the same way? However, I wonder if it will ever come to pass that prayer is absent from public life. Perhaps having a simple moment of silence would satisfy both sides? People who wanted to do some praying could and those who didn't wouldn't have to.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Once the church as an entity gets involved, things go to hell in a handbasket. My geekery might be showing with this quote, but...

“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's to late.â€

Frank Herbert

On the other hand, and saying this as a completely lifelong non-religious person, I still strongly believe in the power of silent moments and reflection, especially in a group setting. For some this is fulfilled by prayer, which I don't share but respect. Now if someone wanted me to recite a prayer with them for the sake of participation, I would find that gross and offensive; but somebody praying next to me whilst I am left to my own thoughts is fine.

Obviously others' mileage will vary and I am really interested in this discussion. Too bad it's almost midnight here :(

[darareaksmey]

I favor the moment of silence, in which a person is free to contemplate the glory of the Christian God, or the stench of the BO of the person standing next to them, or--and here's a novel idea--the things that are going to be discussed at the meeting, the reason everyone turned out in the first place. As a praying Christian myself, I think that's the absolute most I could ask for, under the Constitution, in a public or government setting. Christians who think that isn't sufficient should be treated to prayers of other faiths, led by clergy of other faiths, to see how they like having to endure prayers that don't comport with their beliefs.

[Sola]

Absolutely against. You can pray at home before the meeting if you want.

[xDreamerx]

I'm noticing people are saying that they would be uncomfortable with the pledge being said as well. Could someone who is American maybe give some reasons as to why? Is it because of the added 'under God' phrase (thanks Ike) or something else? Because if you take that out it's really just a pledge to one's country. I don't really see it as much different than a national anthem, but maybe I don't fully appreciate it because I don't live in your culture. Your sense of nationalism is on steroids. No offense.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm noticing people are saying that they would be uncomfortable with the pledge being said as well. Could someone who is American maybe give some reasons as to why? Is it because of the added 'under God' phrase (thanks Ike) or something else? Because if you take that out it's really just a pledge to one's country. I don't really see it as much different than a national anthem, but maybe I don't fully appreciate it because I don't live in your culture. Your sense of nationalism is on steroids. No offense.

No, you got it just fine - the US sense of nationalism is on steroids, and that's what I find disturbing. Most mainstream Americans, however, don't seem to find it disturbing at all. When people of a foreign background say they find the flag plastered all over everything and endless "God bless America" and singing the national anthem before just about every event to be a bit over the top, plenty of average people are just baffled, because they're just used to it.

[nimerha]

You may not realize that the US pledge was changed, intentionally, during the 'red scares' of the 50's to be worded in such a way that it would force anyone who was an atheist to 'step down' and walk away.

I indeed did not know that. And, that is gross and awful (though not really surprising). I am just kinda playing with the abstract idea of "would this work/be morally right" in theory,, on the topic of shared reflection/quiet time in a public political setting, and the pledge that I am considering would have to be from an ideal word: about the commitment to serve the community, and free of any religious content. I did not mean to refer specifically to the US pledge (I don't even know the wording or content of that). Sorry about the confusion, I should have been clear.

[Sola]

I'm noticing people are saying that they would be uncomfortable with the pledge being said as well. Could someone who is American maybe give some reasons as to why? Is it because of the added 'under God' phrase (thanks Ike) or something else? Because if you take that out it's really just a pledge to one's country. I don't really see it as much different than a national anthem, but maybe I don't fully appreciate it because I don't live in your culture. Your sense of nationalism is on steroids. No offense.

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

Here in the US that same tune is used for "My Country 'Tis of Thee" which opens up with "My country, 'tis of thee... sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing!" which I remember from elementary school.

Mainly I remember that I had no idea what the word "tizuvthee" was about, but just sang it anyway. Much later, sometime around 30ish, I happened to hear the tune again played on some bells, ran the words through my head, and had an "OH!!! So THAT's what that's about!" moment.

[fluttershies]

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

Especially with the BBC (supposedly impartial) using that advert with the little girl all the time. The jubilee has ruined bunting for me forever. Blegh.

/anti-royalist Christian socialist who also hates the UK national anthem

[alba]

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

Oh, God, not the jubilee. Last year there was the wedding, this year the jubilee; what next?!

I dislike the national anthem for the same reasons you mentioned. Thus as a resident of Scotland I prefer to think of the national anthem as either "Flower of Scotland" or "Scotland the Brave" :D

[dawbs]

Here in the US that same tune is used for "My Country 'Tis of Thee" which opens up with "My country, 'tis of thee... sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing!" which I remember from elementary school.

Mainly I remember that I had no idea what the word "tizuvthee" was about, but just sang it anyway. Much later, sometime around 30ish, I happened to hear the tune again played on some bells, ran the words through my head, and had an "OH!!! So THAT's what that's about!" moment.

I remember a short-story in middle school about an American girl in a British run school (in India? maybe) who refused to sing the Brit. Anthem and her dad points out she can sing her own song and no one will be the wiser and she won't be beaten to a bloody pulp behind the woodshed...

Now I'm wondering about that story--wonder if I still have that book. I remember it being well written, but I was about 12, so, grain of salt :-P

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

I'm not American but the under God part would piss me off too. I hate that our national anthem here has the word God in it. But beyond elementary school no one sings it, and beyond highschool it's not really played anywhere. At baseball games and the Olympics, but I guess that's it? So schools would be the only thing to worry about.

[jaynie]

No, you got it just fine - the US sense of nationalism is on steroids, and that's what I find disturbing. Most mainstream Americans, however, don't seem to find it disturbing at all. When people of a foreign background say they find the flag plastered all over everything and endless "God bless America" and singing the national anthem before just about every event to be a bit over the top, plenty of average people are just baffled, because they're just used to it.

I was in Denmark recently and they plaster their flag all over everything too (our grocery store is having a sale? carpet the ceiling in flags! roll out the flag giftwrap and paint flags on the faces of the children!), but from this outsiders perspective it comes off totally differently than the same thing in the USA. The distinction I draw in my mind is basically summed up by this quote: "Patriotism is loving your country, nationalism is hating everyone else’s." In Denmark the flag seemed to be saying "Yay! Denmark is a cool place!" whereas in the parts of the USA I've visited the flag seems to be saying "The rest of the world sucks! They wish they were as awesome as us!". I think that might partly be tied up in my perception of American Exceptionalism though. :?

I'm not American but if I were the 'under god' part would piss me off.

I see it as the same thing as our national anthem. Hell will freeze over before I sing that again. Twofold really; one I am very much anti-royalist (I may or may not have been known to utter 'they should do to them what they did to the Romanovs'), and I am also an atheist. The idea that a 'god' should save our queen (someone I really do not wish to have imposed on me) is an anathema to me. When I was at school we used to have to sing God Save the Queen in assemblies sometimes. Even then in my teens I would refused to sing a word. As you can probably imagine, I am really fed up with all the jubilee crap that is going on here at the moment.

That reminds me of the first part of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfjUburw ... re=related . I find the very minor god reference in our own national anthem (Canada's) irritating enough, and that's easy to skip over (we'll keep our land makes perfect sense to me, and seems more patriotic besides) (not that it comes up very often anyway). I can't imagine if the entire point of my anthem was asking a being I didn't believe in to protect people I can't stand.

[xDreamerx]

I'll keep my very royalist feelings to myself then :P. There is a minor reference to God in our anthem, but it has never bothered me considering when it was written and the worldview of that time.

[emmiedahl]

I remember a short-story in middle school about an American girl in a British run school (in India? maybe) who refused to sing the Brit. Anthem and her dad points out she can sing her own song and no one will be the wiser and she won't be beaten to a bloody pulp behind the woodshed...

Now I'm wondering about that story--wonder if I still have that book. I remember it being well written, but I was about 12, so, grain of salt :-P

I remember reading a book about a girl in one of the British colonies in the Caribbean (maybe it was Barbados?) and they sang Rule Britannia in their schools. The song is about Britain's God-given right to take dominion over the world and includes a line that Britons never shall be slaves. But the character was the descendant of slaves and was living in a country that was victim of the dominionist beliefs, she saw the irony.

[xDreamerx]

I believe you mean the book Annie John by Jamaica Kincaid :)

[constantgardener]

Especially with the BBC (supposedly impartial) using that advert with the little girl all the time. The jubilee has ruined bunting for me forever. Blegh.

/anti-royalist Christian socialist who also hates the UK national anthem

Don't get me started on the jubilee. I work for a well-known heritage organisation and of course we are having to trumpet the jubilee at every possible turn. In fact we are selling (reasonably tasteful) bunting! My kids have also had it constantly drummed into them at school but my 7 year old is well aware of my anti-monarchy views and we have had some quite in-depth discussions - dread to think what he's saying about me to his teacher! I ordered myself a t-shirt for the big day from the Republic organisation - it says 'Citizen not subject'. I intend to stalk round the village street party wearing it.

[JesusFightClub]

In Scotland we don't give a fuck about the jubilee. You could forget all about it. Not much time for the monarchy here.

However, (Scottish, not UK) nationalism is strong. We are ruled by a nationalist party. There's a pretty dark side too. I would say most of the Nats are welcoming of different races, tho the English don't always find favour ;) But there's a hardcore, well actually three.

1. The sectarians. I''m opposite of a Nat but considering the amount of IRA songs I can sing and amount of Provo history I know, I'm kinda guilty too. But I see it as a purely political thing. I come from the opposite background, and would never hate someone for their religion. But loads of folk here do.

2. Dark side of Nats. In their ideal Scotland no one without "pure Scottish ancestry" would be allowed. That means no black or Asian faces. Everyone to be white. No "English taint". No gays either. These lot called me a halfbreed for having one English parent and painted "Fuck off back to England" on my door. I do not love them.

3. "Scottish Defence League." Who are fascists. The law gave them permission to march. They will not, if I and comrades have anything to do with it.