Prayer before meetings?

[JesusFightClub]

This debate has come up in my local paper because the local council and the Scottish Parliament both start off their sittings with a prayer or "reflection" from some religious type. Usually a Christian, not always. But the English made a new rule banning this. There's been calls for us to follow suit up here, especially as we might face a legal challenge.

FJists' views on prayer starting a political meeting?

[Witsec7]

I was a Labor Council Trustee (labor councils are coalitions of unions under the AFL-CIO) and caused abject hell when I voiced my disproval of 1) prayer at the meeting, 2)reciting the pledge of allegiance. I lost on the prayer but won on the pledge.

[alba]

I'd say I was surprised to hear this, but then again members of the Church of England sit in the UK parliament :roll: As a presbyterianesque-Protestant-turned-atheist, this doesn't sit well with me.

I am, however, vehemently opposed to religion and politics mingling at all. Religion is a private matter, and shouldn't affect the lives of others. Politics are by their nature public.

[MrsYoungie]

I live just east of Toronto and our council stilll has prayer before their meetings. I am totally against it, but this small town seems to be more in love with tradition than common sense.

I have not noticed any better governing in politics due to the presence or absence of prayer at their meetings. Also, we are becoming more multi-cultural lately and it is always a Christian prayer. I can't imiagine how many heads would explode if someone offered a Jewish, Muslim or Hindu prayer.

[JesusFightClub]

Hmm, interesting experiencedd! The pledge was written by a socialist, right? With no God bit originally?

Was the prayer always Christian? We have imams and suchlike folk

[nimerha]

I am intrigued by the fact that it's not necessarily a christian prayer. What kind of religions come up? Just Judaism, Christianity off-shoots and Islam, other major religions (Hinduism, Buddhism...) or even something a bit more out there? I have to say that I find the idea of a Parliament meeting starting off to a Hare Krishna chant absolutely irresistible :)

On one hand, the idea of a respectful time of reflection or meditation before politics, especially if it calls to reflect upon things like compassion, responsibility, human dignity, etc... sounds like a fantastic idea. On the other hand, if it becomes politics giving religion a platform, or conflating politics, morals and religion, my gut reaction is KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[Witsec7]

Hmm, interesting experiencedd! The pledge was written by a socialist, right? With no God bit originally?

Was the prayer always Christian? We have imams and suchlike folk

The prayer was always xtian, although there were a couple of Jews on the council. I argued against the pledge by citing Wobbly history and union reaction to the anti sedition acts in the PNW. Since the council was hung up on prayer I worked on getting a moment of silence, that didn't work. My big concession was a recitation of the Beatitudes but they hung onto the the Our Father.

[JesusFightClub]

alba, you make a good point. I'm an atheist but usually saw the prayer as inoffensive at worst, rather sweet at best. But is it just a bad precedent?

MrsYoungie, we do have Jewish, Muslim etc prayers here. It's a lot rarer but not unknown. Would you generally feel more comfy with it if that happened?

[Koala]

FJists' views on prayer starting a political meeting?

Vehemently against.

[alba]

On one hand, the idea of a respectful time of reflection or meditation before politics, especially if it calls to reflect upon things like compassion, responsibility, human dignity, etc... sounds like a fantastic idea. On the other hand, if it becomes politics giving religion a platform, or conflating politics, morals and religion, my gut reaction is KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Yeah, there is a big difference between meditation and influencing politics with religion.

We actually do something called "mokuso" at karate, which is basically the Japanese word for mediation. It probably has religious roots, but it doesn't bother me because it is, quite simply, taking the time to focus and reflect at the beginning/end of class. I'd be totally cool with the entire parliament getting down on their knees, closing their eyes, and doing mokuso at the start of every session!

[alba]

alba, you make a good point. I'm an atheist but usually saw the prayer as inoffensive at worst, rather sweet at best. But is it just a bad precedent?

MrsYoungie, we do have Jewish, Muslim etc prayers here. It's a lot rarer but not unknown. Would you generally feel more comfy with it if that happened?

Yeah, I see it as bad precedent, because starting off a political session with religious prayer sets the tone for the discussion, and it allows religion to further permeate politics because if it's OK to have a Christian prayer at the start of a sitting, then why isn't it OK to allow the Kirk to influence debates or bills?

[Koala]

If they want to pray or meditate they should do it at home or to themselves. Hell, they can go to their churches for that matter. It should not involve a captive audience who is there for reasons completely unrelated to religion.

[nimerha]

Yeah, there is a big difference between meditation and influencing politics with religion.

We actually do something called "mokuso" at karate, which is basically the Japanese word for mediation. It probably has religious roots, but it doesn't bother me because it is, quite simply, taking the time to focus and reflect at the beginning/end of class. I'd be totally cool with the entire parliament getting down on their knees, closing their eyes, and doing mokuso at the start of every session!

Exactly. And this can be done - if you invite speakers of various faiths and traditions, and if they make an effort to concentrate on issues or concepts that are shared and bring the community together. But, it also seems that it would be very difficult and requiring a lot of restraint for everybody to stick to their manners and not preach. A moment of silence, meditation or some kind of a non-religious pledge ("I commit to serve my country/voters/community here today to the best of my ability...") just seems like a much better and safer idea.

[JesusFightClub]

I am intrigued by the fact that it's not necessarily a christian prayer. What kind of religions come up? Just Judaism, Christianity off-shoots and Islam, other major religions (Hinduism, Buddhism...) or even something a bit more out there? I have to say that I find the idea of a Parliament meeting starting off to a Hare Krishna chant absolutely irresistible :)

On one hand, the idea of a respectful time of reflection or meditation before politics, especially if it calls to reflect upon things like compassion, responsibility, human dignity, etc... sounds like a fantastic idea. On the other hand, if it becomes politics giving religion a platform, or conflating politics, morals and religion, my gut reaction is KILL IT WITH FIRE.

It's normally a Christian, but AFAIK there have been rabbis, Sikhs (large, for Scotland, population here) and imams. They aren't normally political as such. They say a bit about recent events but not like party political. It'll be vague stuff. And asking the politicos to think about things (victims of disasters, etc)

[JesusFightClub]

Love the idea of a pledge to do duty to your community! It would be a good reminder.

[contrary]

Where's Leslie Knope when you need her?

[fluttershies]

I'm a Christian, Anglican even (so it's members of my church who sit in the House of Lords, not that I like that much) and I really dislike prayers before meetings, especially political ones. Prayer is too private for that and as someone with faith who does pray, I don't like reducing prayer to just another thing to get through on the agenda. Unless you're a religious company then prayer is inappropriate.

I like the idea of a pledge to do your duty to your community though.

[Veronica Mars Rover]

Prayer is not ever appropriate before public, political meetings. Even the watered-down inclusive prayers to "Higher Power" or "Father/Mother." Plenty of people don't believe and/or don't pray, and prayer sets the tone for division, rather than reflection or community-building. I'm a Christian who prays regularly, but I would never be comfortable participating in a prayer with people whose faith I don't know, or who may be feeling coerced/silenced.

I'll even be the fly in the ointment and say that I wouldn't be comfortable with a pledge, either. Forced participation, no matter how innocuous, just rubs me the wrong way.

[constantgardener]

I think this shows that although the UK in general is less 'showy' about its religion than many other countries, Christianity and in particular the CofE continues to permeate our society and institutions. My Dad used to be on his local town council and in fact he was the mayor (only a little country town!) for a term. But he is an atheist and although he never mentioned anything about prayers before meetings, he did have to represent the council in church services for days like Rememberence Sunday. I was very proud of him when instead of doing a Bible reading in church, he chose to read out the lyrics of Bob Dylan's 'Masters of War' (with the vicar's full support, I might add).

A daily act of Christian worship is still required in state schools, I believe.

[Tanaqui]

I'm totally against it. Do it on your own time. There's nothing stopping a person from praying in their own head before or even during the meeting. If you need to be seen praying or require group participation, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

[dawbs]

I used to work for state g'vt and would be standing on 'the floor' during prayers.

I got grief(not from a boss, from a co-worker) because I refused to close my eyes and bow my head.

Said Co-worker knew I 'was religious' (I"m christian and it's usually a Christian prayer)--but it wasn't right.

Not only was it imposing religion (even if it was 'vauge', it was still a religion, insulting to atheists in our state) on people on g'vt time, it was also taking something meaningful to me--a Chrsitian prayer, and watering it down into a pulpy mess that I actually found offensive.

The latter is what made people quit bugging me.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm extremely against prayer before meetings, no matter what kind of prayer. Religion has no place anywhere near politics, and no matter how many different religious prayers you include sometimes, you'll always be excluding someone and basically holding someone captive to experience beliefs that are not their own. Religion should be a private thing that's up to the individual.

[geniebelle6901]

If it is a private organization that is not receiving any government funding meeting on non-government owned property, then you run into freedom of speech and freedom of religion issues. The government cannot and should not interfere in these cases.

[MrsYoungie]

alba, you make a good point. I'm an atheist but usually saw the prayer as inoffensive at worst, rather sweet at best. But is it just a bad precedent?

MrsYoungie, we do have Jewish, Muslim etc prayers here. It's a lot rarer but not unknown. Would you generally feel more comfy with it if that happened?

I don't know that it would make me feel "comfy", but at least it would be a bit more inclusive. I would be most happy if a secular meeting was conducted as such and prayer was not included at all. It's irrelevant to the matters at hand.

[xDreamerx]

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand I find it...unsettling, because I don't like when Church & State are mixed. I wouldn't be comfortable if I felt like I had to participate in someone else's culture or prayers so why should they be made to potentially feel the same way? However, I wonder if it will ever come to pass that prayer is absent from public life. Perhaps having a simple moment of silence would satisfy both sides? People who wanted to do some praying could and those who didn't wouldn't have to.