I honestly cannot understand this about fundies

[SpeakNow]

Why are fundies/the religious right so damn focused on gay marriage and abortion? Those aren't even the 2 most important laws in the Bible. Why aren't they focused on legalizing the 10 commandments (making lying illegal, banning coveting, requiring people to keep the Sabbath day holy)? Why not focus on divorce laws, since the Bible also disapproves of divorce? I honestly cannot comprehend why they focus so heavily on 2 issues.

[QAF_Rocks]

I think they focus on LGBT people because they're an easy scapegoat. It's much harder to deal with divorce because that's an issue that affects many conservative Christians, so if they tried to outlaw divorce, they would be making their own lives harder. And I also think that a lot of leaders of the anti-gay movement are furious because they perceive LGBT people as getting away with something. They see them making choices that they believe are bad/sinful and not being punished. Since they're not content to leave the judging to their god, they want to make them sorry for living the "wrong" life. What better way than to pass draconian laws that ensure same-sex couples have a really hard time of it? I think it's about stigmatization and discouragement. Maybe they think that they can force gay people back into the closet, if only they make their lives difficult enough.

[abba12]

Abortion and Gay marriage are things that have been illegal in the past and people are trying to make them legal, so christians are trying to defend the laws that already exist and stop a law from being changed, or have it changed back to something it was recently, a much easier task than making a new law and having it passed, something the general person can rarely do, instead relying on voting in politicians who will do it.

Christians have debated divorce law fiercly in the past, mostly in the 90s when divorce was made easier to obtain. Right now no one is trying to change divorce law to make it easier to divorce, so people are ignoring it in favour of other issues, but there is still a group that is trying to make divorce harder to obtain, they're just quieter.

Also remember that you see what the media decides to report. Some churches work hard to defend the rights of disabled people, but that dosen't make a sensational story does it? Some churches are working hard to change laws regarding censorship, but the only time you hear about that is when a school bans a list of books or a particular popular video game is attacked. And I know for a fact some churches have been involved in a huge push against 7 day trading and sunday work hours, 7 day trading for anyone but fuel stations and corner stores was not allowed in my hometown until some 5 years ago and the churches in the area were among the biggest opponents. But most young people only know the national news stories on the hip news stations, how often do young people read the local paper these days? Those national news outlets have decided abortion and gays are valuable topics, they bring strong opinion, sensationalism, and money in the form of sponsors. People are more likely to buy a paper with a front page headline of 'church sending women to the dark ages' than a front page headline of 'church opens disability work center', and people are more likely to remember the first headline because it brings in more emotion. I remember laughing sadly one night when one of the first stories on the news that night was about gay abortion protestors and how the church was so evil and horrible, and the very last, hang on story at the end was about the church christmas free food drive that people lined up all the way down the street for, and it didn't mention that this drive happens every 3 months, in fact they barely mentioned it was a church drive, just a christmas charity event that is a masive help to the community, so much so that people line up before the sun rises to get in. Societies view of anything is tainted by the media they subscribe to. People that night came away from watching the news angry at the church, and glad that some charity is supporting their community, never making the connection it was the exact same people doing it. (in this case it was different churches but I know the church who does the free food drive has very strong man/woman marriage ideas too, and at other times have petitioned or has members that have petitioned)

As for the other issues you mentioned, how do you intend for coverting to be policed? It isn't a law because there's no way to uphold the law, it would be absurd to try. As for lying, firstly the bible dosen't say not to lie, there are numerous instances in the bible showing people who lie without repucussion including jesus himself (though some christians will argue this isn't the case), it says do not bear false witness, often thought to relate specifically to the process of prosecution during an age where forensic evidence did not exist and most court cases were a matter of 'he said, she said', and two or three witnesses were considered reasonable evidence. Honesty is certainly a christian character trait to be encouraged, but a lot of fundies especially don't feel that the bible explicitly says never to lie. Lying in court, bearing false witness, IS illegal in various forms. And again, even if you believe lying is always sinful, how are we going to police that one, most people lie daily whether they realise it or not, white lies count, exagerations count, half truths count. That would be a nightmare to do actually charge anyone for.

That's my view of it anyways. Laws are easier to defend than create, some laws are inpractical in any society, even biblical society, the bible never specifies a punishment for coveting, it's a personal standard, and finally, the media has made it look as if those are the only two subjects the church cares about, and really, they're kinda not (there are exceptions, some churches seem to exist just to fight these issues, but most don't)

[User123456]

.....because they are Paulists and not Christians. By far the largest problem I have with "fundemental Christians" is that they fail to understand that they are legalist following the teachings of Paul. If they actually, followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, they would be much more in line with what we know as modern diesm, modern quakerism, or the universalists.

I actually don't care if they want to have their favorite issues, but don't do it in the name of Christ, who said nothing on the subject.

[Patsy]

Also remember that you see what the media decides to report. Some churches work hard to defend the rights of disabled people, but that dosen't make a sensational story does it?

Abloobloobloo. Whether politics, news or the churches set it, fucking up gay rights and banning abortion are the two things conservative churches are obsessed with.

[So Many Lies]

....it's evidence the rest of the world is evil. Sure they can try to ban covetting or something but it lacks the sex factor.

[Buba]

....it's evidence the rest of the world is evil. Sure they can try to ban covetting or something but it lacks the sex factor.

Yeah, they are obsessed with anything related to sex. When I was attending a baptist church I questioned why only unmarried pregnant girls were excommunicated. The answer was "because the sin is too obvious in this case".

[QAF_Rocks]

I remember laughing sadly one night when one of the first stories on the news that night was about gay abortion protestors and how the church was so evil and horrible, and the very last, hang on story at the end was about the church christmas free food drive that people lined up all the way down the street for, and it didn't mention that this drive happens every 3 months, in fact they barely mentioned it was a church drive, just a christmas charity event that is a masive help to the community, so much so that people line up before the sun rises to get in. Societies view of anything is tainted by the media they subscribe to. People that night came away from watching the news angry at the church, and glad that some charity is supporting their community, never making the connection it was the exact same people doing it. (in this case it was different churches but I know the church who does the free food drive has very strong man/woman marriage ideas too, and at other times have petitioned or has members that have petitioned)

So because this church does some nice things, people shouldn't be angry when they do terrible things? If this church is working to ban same-sex marriage, then they are working to hurt people I love and care about. They are working to stigmatize and de-legitimize my family. And that's not okay with me, no matter how many charity drives they do.

I'm sure lots of segregated churches in the South held charity drives, too. That didn't make their racism any less horrible. It didn't excuse their support for laws that didn't let people of different races attend the same schools, use the same drinking fountains, or marry one another. Just because those churches occasionally did good deeds, that didn't erase their negative actions.

[ophelia]

.....because they are Paulists and not Christians. By far the largest problem I have with "fundemental Christians" is that they fail to understand that they are legalist following the teachings of Paul. If they actually, followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, they would be much more in line with what we know as modern diesm, modern quakerism, or the universalists.

I actually don't care if they want to have their favorite issues, but don't do it in the name of Christ, who said nothing on the subject.

I actually never saw it that way.. thank you for that new perspective. I'm going to re-read Paul I gues..

[saraelise]

I think it's easy for them to remain in the "right" in their own eyes if they focus on abortion and homosexuality. They know they'll always be able to hold themselves up as the moral right (again, in their own eyes) no matter whether they succeed in banning abortion/gay marriage. They'll always be right and the secular world is just out to get them!

[2xx1xy1JD]

I wonder how much of it is a desire to get really judgmental about something that doesn't involve them personally? That way, you can feel righteous without actually having to change your own behavior.

[Peas n carrots]

I wonder how much of it is a desire to get really judgmental about something that doesn't involve them personally? That way, you can feel righteous without actually having to change your own behavior.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Isn't it always easier to get judge-y about a group or behavior you don't participate in? I also think it is about punishment....I think its pretty clear it isn't about saving babies because if it was there would be more support for mothers and babies. Same for gays, they are more open in society and are being punished for being uppity and asking for rights.

[So Many Lies]

I think all these posts are true.

[So Many Lies]

Yeah, they are obsessed with anything related to sex. When I was attending a baptist church I questioned why only unmarried pregnant girls were excommunicated. The answer was "because the sin is too obvious in this case".

If you look at it that way, a pedophile would be less offensive....

[debrand]

Sorry abba, I have to disagree

I think that the harm that conservative Christianity does in America outweighs the good that they do and until more liberal Christians begin to speak out LOUDLY against the takeover of their faith, Christians are going to be judged by the bad actions of a large minority. I do think that that the bad apples are a minority in Christianity, however, that doesn't mean that their aren't many of them or that they don't have power.

The passing of amendment one in my state is a good example. Yes, there were Christians who spoke out against it, however, one of the reason that it passed was because of pastors pushing it in their church.

[FlorenceHamilton]

.....because they are Paulists and not Christians. By far the largest problem I have with "fundemental Christians" is that they fail to understand that they are legalist following the teachings of Paul. If they actually, followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, they would be much more in line with what we know as modern diesm, modern quakerism, or the universalists.

I actually don't care if they want to have their favorite issues, but don't do it in the name of Christ, who said nothing on the subject.

I totally agree with this. Paul is a cult leader. There have been many in each generation who attempt to become another Paul. Many of the folks we discuss here on FJ model themseves as a latter day Paul....from Joseph Smith to Bill Gothard. I also want to mention that Doug Phillips it a tool.

Edited for riffle.

[So Many Lies]

I totally agree with this. Paul is a cult leader. There have been many in each generation who attempt to become another Paul. Many of the folks we discuss here on FJ model themseves as a latter day Paul....from Joseph Smith to Bill Gothard. I also want to mention that Doug Phillips it a tool.

Edited for riffle.

I must say this pov has been eye opening to me. Thanks!!

[bananacat]

Abortion and gay marriage are threats to Patriarchy, and that is all they care about. Abortion gives women some control over their fertility, so they have a choice in how dependent they are on a man. Marriage equality threatens the Patriarchy because at least on of the partners in a same-sex couple has to be following the non-traditional gender role, and yet many of these partnerships last long-term, even longer than plenty of hetero marriages. It makes it that much harder to convince women that strict gender roles are necessary for a "successful" marriage and well-adjusted kids.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here's a post about a charming would-be fundie who assumes that rules are just for gays and women. [i have no issue with someone deciding that the rules of Orthodox Judaism are not for them - but I have a major problem with being a judgmental hypocrite.]

http://jrkmommy-personalandpolitical.bl ... chive.html

[pimpom]

Here's a post about a charming would-be fundie who assumes that rules are just for gays and women. [i have no issue with someone deciding that the rules of Orthodox Judaism are not for them - but I have a major problem with being a judgmental hypocrite.]

http://jrkmommy-personalandpolitical.bl ... chive.html

JRK Mommy ROCKS! She used to write lots of sensible comments on the now sadly 'answered' ;-) blog Onionsoupmix. Have you ever been a reader there? (please say yes?)

[deelaem]

Abortion and Gay marriage are things that have been illegal in the past and people are trying to make them legal, so christians are trying to defend the laws that already exist and stop a law from being changed, or have it changed back to something it was recently, a much easier task than making a new law and having it passed, something the general person can rarely do, instead relying on voting in politicians who will do it.

Christians have debated divorce law fiercly in the past, mostly in the 90s when divorce was made easier to obtain. Right now no one is trying to change divorce law to make it easier to divorce, so people are ignoring it in favour of other issues, but there is still a group that is trying to make divorce harder to obtain, they're just quieter.

Also remember that you see what the media decides to report. Some churches work hard to defend the rights of disabled people, but that dosen't make a sensational story does it? Some churches are working hard to change laws regarding censorship, but the only time you hear about that is when a school bans a list of books or a particular popular video game is attacked. And I know for a fact some churches have been involved in a huge push against 7 day trading and sunday work hours, 7 day trading for anyone but fuel stations and corner stores was not allowed in my hometown until some 5 years ago and the churches in the area were among the biggest opponents. But most young people only know the national news stories on the hip news stations, how often do young people read the local paper these days? Those national news outlets have decided abortion and gays are valuable topics, they bring strong opinion, sensationalism, and money in the form of sponsors. People are more likely to buy a paper with a front page headline of 'church sending women to the dark ages' than a front page headline of 'church opens disability work center', and people are more likely to remember the first headline because it brings in more emotion. I remember laughing sadly one night when one of the first stories on the news that night was about gay abortion protestors and how the church was so evil and horrible, and the very last, hang on story at the end was about the church christmas free food drive that people lined up all the way down the street for, and it didn't mention that this drive happens every 3 months, in fact they barely mentioned it was a church drive, just a christmas charity event that is a masive help to the community, so much so that people line up before the sun rises to get in. Societies view of anything is tainted by the media they subscribe to. People that night came away from watching the news angry at the church, and glad that some charity is supporting their community, never making the connection it was the exact same people doing it. (in this case it was different churches but I know the church who does the free food drive has very strong man/woman marriage ideas too, and at other times have petitioned or has members that have petitioned)

As for the other issues you mentioned, how do you intend for coverting to be policed? It isn't a law because there's no way to uphold the law, it would be absurd to try. As for lying, firstly the bible dosen't say not to lie, there are numerous instances in the bible showing people who lie without repucussion including jesus himself (though some christians will argue this isn't the case), it says do not bear false witness, often thought to relate specifically to the process of prosecution during an age where forensic evidence did not exist and most court cases were a matter of 'he said, she said', and two or three witnesses were considered reasonable evidence. Honesty is certainly a christian character trait to be encouraged, but a lot of fundies especially don't feel that the bible explicitly says never to lie. Lying in court, bearing false witness, IS illegal in various forms. And again, even if you believe lying is always sinful, how are we going to police that one, most people lie daily whether they realise it or not, white lies count, exagerations count, half truths count. That would be a nightmare to do actually charge anyone for.

That's my view of it anyways. Laws are easier to defend than create, some laws are inpractical in any society, even biblical society, the bible never specifies a punishment for coveting, it's a personal standard, and finally, the media has made it look as if those are the only two subjects the church cares about, and really, they're kinda not (there are exceptions, some churches seem to exist just to fight these issues, but most don't)

No seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? I tried to find your point in this drivel, but couldn't.

[2xx1xy1JD]

JRK Mommy ROCKS! She used to write lots of sensible comments on the now sadly 'answered' ;-) blog Onionsoupmix. Have you ever been a reader there? (please say yes?)

Yes.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Abortion and gay marriage are threats to Patriarchy, and that is all they care about. Abortion gives women some control over their fertility, so they have a choice in how dependent they are on a man. Marriage equality threatens the Patriarchy because at least on of the partners in a same-sex couple has to be following the non-traditional gender role, and yet many of these partnerships last long-term, even longer than plenty of hetero marriages. It makes it that much harder to convince women that strict gender roles are necessary for a "successful" marriage and well-adjusted kids.

Agreed.

It's interesting to read the various fundie pages that make the argument that without banning and persecuting everything to do with homosexuality, it will break down the sexual tradeoff (I can't recall the proper term). Patriarchy relies on the bargain where men (who by nature want to roam around and hump anything that moves) will only consent to being "civilized" by women, who will create a home for them, raise their (their!) heirs and provide them with sexual favors (reluctantly!) in return for their staying around, providing protection, and bringing in income.

Supposedly if boys realize that homosexuality is a valid option, they will all run off to live promiscuous gay lifestyles (because it's "easier") without settling down and society will fall in flames.

On top of that of course is the easy "God doesn't like it, and will withdraw his special blessing on the U.S." (but my own interpretation of that is, well yeah of course, because it's men who subscribe to the whole "sexual tradeoff" patriarchy nonsense who made that up, but... hey)

[DarkAnts]

I think a lot of it has to do with them not being secure in their religion or salvation. They are so worried that they wont get into heaven. So, they try to distract god by saying "look at this group of people over here, they are way more sinful them me."

I bet some of them also have gay tendencies. They think that they can cure themselves by eradicating it from our society.

[Eclipse]

I was joking with my Catholic mother yesterday about how much God loves Canada because same sex marriage has been legalized since 2005 and others places that ban it or want to ban it get hit which natural disasters that are far worse than what Canada experiences and a far worse economy. So by the logic of some prominent American ministers, God must be blessing Canada with the best economy and banking system in the G8 and by not causing severe natural disasters due to God's approval of same sex marriage.

Just to clarify, we were joking using the minister god punish/logic line. Both of us support same sex marriage. My Catholic mother has come far in her life, and my very Catholic grandmother even farther :D