Headcoverings in different religions

[terranova]

Is it just me or does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to women covering in different religions?

Often the response from the media to a Muslim woman covering is to assume she is covering because she is forced to by a man, or by her religion, and she really wants to be free to run around in a bikini but fears being stoned to death.

However, many Jewish and Christian women cover too, and there doesn't ever seem to be the same reaction to a photo of an Orthodox Jewish woman in a hat or headscarf, or an Amish woman in a prayer covering.

The assumptions made about Muslim women could also be made about these women. I often hear that Amish or Mennonite women's coverings are "cute" even, when they could be thought of as signs of subjugation too.

Do any women on here who cover have any thoughts on this?

[emmiedahl]

Jewish women get the reaction as well-- not to the same extent as Muslim women because they don't cover their necks.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Jewish women get the reaction as well-- not to the same extent as Muslim women because they don't cover their necks.

When I cover mine, I get that reaction too. "its all patriarchial BS"

Well, i'm SORRY, i'm just covering my epic bad hair day. Go. Screw. Yourself. Seriously, my husband doesn't give a flying fuck one way or the other as long as I feel good about myself.

[Boogalou]

YES! A chance to share this picture. I was going to start my own thread on it sometime but now I don't have to. This came from a post on sociological images and there was a pretty interesting discussion in the comments section that is worth the read.

And the original post http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... -practice/

[terranova]

That's a cool picture, but arn't there many types of Muslim headcovering? And Jewish too I think. And do Catholic nuns dress like that anymore? Not the ones around here anyway.

[Kitty]

It's a poor understanding of headcovering in all three religions, really.

I think some find the rather anachronistic look of Mennonites/Amish adorable, and the verse in Corinthians about the head-covering is surprisingly little-known outside fringe circles, it seems. I think a lot of non-covering Christians gloss over the Amish coverings because they don't know the religious reasons behind it and think the Amish are stuck in the same spot they were in 300 years ago, and that's the reason for the headgear.

I don't know about Jewish women's head covering, because 1) I'm not super-familiar with Jewish head-covering requirements and 2) I know very few Jews IRL and none of the women cover their hair. But I'm sure they do attract attention, though I'm not sure they have quite the same reactions as Christians and Muslims who cover.

There's a very popular myth floating around Western cultures that Muslim women cover their heads because they are forced to by their religion. The hijab is actually a sort of statement from centuries ago, that stuck around as a uniquely Muslim fashion, looooooong after the statement that those who wore the hijab were making was forgotten. I wouldn't call it a fashion trend, that's rather inaccurate- Persian women wore it as a symbol of pride, and then non-Persian women picked it up. AFAIK there's nothing in the Quran that requires women to cover their heads, though the inspiration for it comes from Mohammed's wives. True, the concept has evolved into the niqab and burka which are arguably oppressive (I know Sunnichick freely chose to wear the niqab, but you can't say everyone in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan respectively did), and in Islam women are not supposed to be forced to cover. Muslim FJers may correct me if I'm wrong; my source is a professor I know who has studied Islam quite extensively.

I think as far as Christianity and Islam go, people think Christians who cover have a choice and Muslims don't. I'd go so far as to say it's actually the other way around- many Christians are forced to cover by fathers, husbands, and clergy; Muslim women choose it as a cultural symbol (provided we're talking about the West).

[Kitty]

That's a cool picture, but arn't there many types of Muslim headcovering? And Jewish too I think. And do Catholic nuns dress like that anymore? Not the ones around here anyway.

Yep, and a quick Google search will show you all of the varieties.

Regarding nuns, I think most orders have abandoned the traditional habits, but some nuns have stuck to it. It's been a very long time since I've seen nuns in traditional habits, and that was in England... about 15 years ago.

[ilovetchotchkes]

That's a cool picture, but arn't there many types of Muslim headcovering? And Jewish too I think. And do Catholic nuns dress like that anymore? Not the ones around here anyway.

There's actually apparently a resurgence of the completely habited nuns. Usually its very young women. There's this WHOLE swing towards the "pre vatican II " stuff in the Catholic church.

Edited to add NPR article:

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/22/131753494 ... ew-radical

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Often the response from the media to a Muslim woman covering is to assume she is covering because she is forced to by a man, or by her religion, and she really wants to be free to run around in a bikini but fears being stoned to death.

However, many Jewish and Christian women cover too, and there doesn't ever seem to be the same reaction to a photo of an Orthodox Jewish woman in a hat or headscarf, or an Amish woman in a prayer covering.

I'm not too keen on religions proscribing what women can or can't wear in any case, I admit I have a double standard on this, but in the complete opposite way as you've phrased it. I'm more ok with Muslim women wearing headcoverings than Chrsitians/Amish (I don't know any Jews who cover.) Here's why:

1. It's a cultural thing, not just religious. If a Christian headcoverer takes off the headdress and the frumper, she can still fit in perfectly well with her American culture, probably reasonably well with her religious subculture, but a Muslim woman who starts dressing in Western clothes will remove herself from her ethnic identity.

2. The Muslim ladies I have known were free to follow current styles so long as they stayed within boundaries. It really *did* seem to be about modesty in other words, whereas the Christian version seems to be about making women ugly. Also, the women I knew were perfectly comfortable taking off the headscarves and dressing more immodestly (for lack of a better word) around the house, so they didn't cover 24/7.

3. Just as an aside, as for the burqas and niqabs, I think that is taking it too far, but I've heard it said that many middle Eastern women prefer to wear those as a form of sunscreen.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I'm not too keen on religions proscribing what women can or can't wear in any case, I admit I have a double standard on this, but in the complete opposite way as you've phrased it. I'm more ok with Muslim women wearing headcoverings than Chrsitians/Amish (I don't know any Jews who cover.) Here's why:

1. It's a cultural thing, not just religious. If a Christian headcoverer takes off the headdress and the frumper, she can still fit in perfectly well with her American culture, probably reasonably well with her religious subculture, but a Muslim woman who starts dressing in Western clothes will remove herself from her ethnic identity.

2. The Muslim ladies I have known were free to follow current styles so long as they stayed within boundaries. It really *did* seem to be about modesty in other words, whereas the Christian version seems to be about making women ugly. Also, the women I knew were perfectly comfortable taking off the headscarves and dressing more immodestly (for lack of a better word) around the house, so they didn't cover 24/7.

3. Just as an aside, as for the burqas and niqabs, I think that is taking it too far, but I've heard it said that many middle Eastern women prefer to wear those as a form of sunscreen.

The muslim gal I knew in college showed us what her new haircut looked like but she took us into the ladies room so no guys would see. :)

[Glass Cowcatcher]

The muslim gal I knew in college showed us what her new haircut looked like but she took us into the ladies room so no guys would see. :)

Same here with my friend. I lost touch with her a long time ago and really wish I had kept up. :(

[Boogalou]

That's a cool picture, but arn't there many types of Muslim headcovering? And Jewish too I think. And do Catholic nuns dress like that anymore? Not the ones around here anyway.

Oh yes, absolutely. It's not meant to be an exhaustive picture, it just gives a sample of what some women wear. I just thought it was interesting because it shows a little taste of all the variety that exists in terms of religious head coverings. And obviously not all women part of that religion will wear that covering or any covering at all.

[apple1]

I often hear that Amish or Mennonite women's coverings are "cute" even, when they could be thought of as signs of subjugation too.

If a Christian headcoverer takes off the headdress and the frumper, she can still fit in perfectly well with her American culture

(I know this is 2 different posters)

These 2 statements say opposite things. Can't be both.

BTW, an Amish women who would be so bold as to take off her cover (this would be in direct opposition to the requirements of both her husband or other "headship" and the direction of the bishop) would NOT fit in perfectly well. She would be shunned at the least.

[Sunnichick31]

there's nothing in the Quran that requires women to cover their heads, though the inspiration for it comes from Mohammed's wives.

Actually the Quran does instruct men and women to cover themselves

Quran, chapter 24 verses 30-31

24:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

At that time, women were wearing scarves on their heads, but the were wearing them in a way which didn't cover the hair fully nor did they cover the neck or bosom (all of which are supposed to be covered).As you can see, in verse 31 we are insructed in how to cover ourselves.

Chapter 33 verse 59 33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Some people interpret this verse to be another verse about the headscarf, but in reality the word translated as overgarment refers to something worn over ones normal clothes (meaning an abaya, jilbab, pardesu, chador or something similar.) in order to make sure the body is fully covered. Although you can find modest western clothes, some still show the shape of the body such as the butt or breasts.

Evidences in the hadith for niqab-

Narrated Aisha: The woman is to bring down her JilbÄb from over her head and then place it upon her face. (jilbab is the word for overgarment. In modern context it refers to a coat-like garment worn over top of ones regular clothes, but in historical context it can be used to refer to the entire outfit.)

Narrated Aisha: The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah in ihrÄm When they came near, each of us would lower her JilbÄb from her head over her face, and when they passed by we would uncover our faces.

I have more hadiths proving niqab is a requirement but I won't post all of them.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

(I know this is 2 different posters)

These 2 statements say opposite things. Can't be both.

BTW, an Amish women who would be so bold as to take off her cover (this would be in direct opposition to the requirements of both her husband or other "headship" and the direction of the bishop) would NOT fit in perfectly well. She would be shunned at the least.

If you're referring to my post, what I meant was that an Amish woman could take off the bonnet and still be a part of American culture, even the culture of the great majority of very conservative churches.

[Rhetorica]

Yay! As someone who spent the first 21 years of her life wearing a covering very similar to the Mennonite woman in the graphic, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for asking this question! I wish more people would.

I think as far as Christianity and Islam go, people think Christians who cover have a choice and Muslims don't. I'd go so far as to say it's actually the other way around- many Christians are forced to cover by fathers, husbands, and clergy; Muslim women choose it as a cultural symbol (provided we're talking about the West).

Generally speaking, this is my take as well. I suspect there's something about race, about the presumed agency of white Europeans, in the way many people assume Muslim women are compelled while Christian/white women aren't. The Western world has a long history of justifying colonialism on the grounds that brown women must be saved from brown men.

[saraelise]

I think there's a huge double standard in Western/Northern Europe. In Denmark especially, the political debate over the Muslim veil has turned downright nasty and sometimes I want to just scream "but 150 years ago, a Danish woman would be covering her hair as well, or be barred access to the church!" A lot of the protest comes from the conservative nationalists who feel the hijab is somehow overtaking their rights, but who would love to see a return to "the good old days." And when you look at Danish clothes from the good old days, you'll notice they include ehadcoverings for both women and men, although the female headcovering almost always includes covering all of the hair. In some instances, it's even niqab like. How they fail to see the connection baffles me.

[skrmom]

Actually the Quran does instruct men and women to cover themselves

Quran, chapter 24 verses 30-31

24:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

At that time, women were wearing scarves on their heads, but the were wearing them in a way which didn't cover the hair fully nor did they cover the neck or bosom (all of which are supposed to be covered).As you can see, in verse 31 we are insructed in how to cover ourselves.

Chapter 33 verse 59 33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Some people interpret this verse to be another verse about the headscarf, but in reality the word translated as overgarment refers to something worn over ones normal clothes (meaning an abaya, jilbab, pardesu, chador or something similar.) in order to make sure the body is fully covered. Although you can find modest western clothes, some still show the shape of the body such as the butt or breasts.

Evidences in the hadith for niqab-

Narrated Aisha: The woman is to bring down her JilbÄb from over her head and then place it upon her face. (jilbab is the word for overgarment. In modern context it refers to a coat-like garment worn over top of ones regular clothes, but in historical context it can be used to refer to the entire outfit.)

Narrated Aisha: The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah in ihrÄm When they came near, each of us would lower her JilbÄb from her head over her face, and when they passed by we would uncover our faces.

I have more hadiths proving niqab is a requirement but I won't post all of them.

There is also nothing about having to wear all black, as many Muslim women do. For many, only their eyes show. Wearing heavy black robes and veils has to be extremely hot, especially in climates where it is over 120 degrees somedays. Why can't the women wear a lightweight pale pink fabric?

[apple1]

If you're referring to my post, what I meant was that an Amish woman could take off the bonnet and still be a part of American culture, even the culture of the great majority of very conservative churches.

But the point is - an adult Amish woman leaving Amish society to become "part of American culture" has left - or been expelled from - everything she has been raised to know and be. All while being totally unprepared and unable to make her way and survive in "American culture" (8th grade Amish education, no marketable job skills, no income, etc, etc) and while being shunned (unable to speak with or have contact with any friends, relatives, or children). Think about it.

[debrand]

This is an interesting discussion. If you read the bible verses about head covering it does sound as if Paul wanted women to cover their hair. However, his wording is very strange. On one hand he tells men to not cover their hair. He then seems to suggest that a woman's hair can be her covering. But if that was true, wouldn't men have to shave their heads?

Paul's writing on the issue are very confusing. Why would angels have anything to do with head covering? Is there a corresponding verses in the Islamic or Jewish literature to verse 7? (Men are made in the glory of god and women are made in the glory of man.)

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

[Deleted03]

But the point is - an adult Amish woman leaving Amish society to become "part of American culture" has left - or been expelled from - everything she has been raised to know and be. All while being totally unprepared and unable to make her way and survive in "American culture" (8th grade Amish education, no marketable job skills, no income, etc, etc) and while being shunned (unable to speak with or have contact with any friends, relatives, or children). Think about it.

that's leaving her culture... just because you live in the US does not mean you are from the mainstream cultures. And actually there are many muslim countries where women can choose to wear headcoverings or not: Morrocco, Tunisia (I think Algeria too), Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Iraq (?). So it is not a cultural imperative everywhere.

I thought headcovering for Amish women were mandated by the Ordnung and not by a headship or husband?

[NeonMoon]

3. Just as an aside, as for the burqas and niqabs, I think that is taking it too far, but I've heard it said that many middle Eastern women prefer to wear those as a form of sunscreen.

It's interesting how clothing and headgear that starts out as a practical matter, through religion and culture becomes a marker of identity and religious conviction. It's perfectly reasonable for people who live in desert like conditions to cover up to protect themselves from wind and sun. And the bonnet worn by the Amish woman in the picture will actually protect her head and neck from the sun if she is working outdoors, but the transparent bonnet worn by the Mennonite woman isn't going to keep out the sun or cold air.

I live in a big city with many Muslim women who choose to wear headcoverings, but the only time I see niqabs is on women on the subway or streets in winter (a perfect excuse to cover your face, keeping out the cold and germs! But looks cooler than a ski mask or surgical mask.).

[apple1]

I thought headcovering for Amish women were mandated by the Ordnung and not by a headship or husband?

Yes, but the bishops and the husbands/fathers enforce the Ordnung. And bishops (at least some) have the ability to modify the Ordnung. Hence differences in doctrine and practice from one Amish group to another. That's why I said mandated by husbands/bishops/etc.

[apple1]

I live in a fairly multicultural suburban area. I see some niqab/chador.

I find myself puzzled by the woman-in-niqab/chador, following behind the man in T shirt, shorts, and flip flops. I see this scenario with a fair amount of frequency during the summer around here. (Yes, this is absolutely true).

[Deleted03]

I live in a fairly multicultural suburban area. I see some niqab/chador.

I find myself puzzled by the woman-in-niqab/chador, following behind the man in T shirt, shorts, and flip flops. I see this scenario with a fair amount of frequency during the summer around here. (Yes, this is absolutely true).

This is what happens here too.