Interracial marriage

[FloraDoraDolly]

A few days ago, the subject of fundamentalists and interracial marriage came up in a thread. At around the same time, my parents went to a concert that happened to be at a somewhat conservative church. I have a longstanding practice of picking up free tracts and literature from every house of worship that I visit, so Mom grabbed a nice stack of reading material for me on her way out. (Thanks, Mom! :D ) This reading material included some tracts by Ken "Answers in Genesis" Ham. IIRC, he appeared in the Duggar episode where they visited his Creation Science Museum.

One of the tracts is about racism and interracial marriage. According to Ken Ham, there is no such thing as race; there are only different "people groups."

Using a mixture of Bible verses and true science, he concludes that physical characteristics such as skin color and eye shape are only minor variations; everyone is essentially a different shade of brown. All people today are descended from Noah's three sons and their wives, who were probably a "middle brown" color with recessive genes that enabled them to produce offspring with a variety of skin shades. After the Tower of Babel, people split into different groups and scattered throughout the world, but this was based on language, not on skin color. But over successive generations, darker skinned people flourished in certain climates while lighter skinned people flourished in other climates. Add gene mutations and this is how the "races" as we know them today came to exist.

Why does racism exist? Darwinian evolution, of course!

As for marriage between members of different people groups, Ham says there are three kinds of marriages:

Christian plus Christian= OK

Non-Christian plus non-Christian= OK

Christian plus non-Christian= not OK.

Thus, as long as both partners are Christians (or if both partners are not Christians), then it is all right to marry someone from a different people group. The only kind of marriage that is non-Biblical is when a Christian marries someone who isn't a Christian.

Whether or not the Duggars and other Quiverfullers agree with any/all of this, I don't know. But Ken Ham is a popular figure within Quiverfull circles. I noticed that the Mally family (the ones responsible for "Before You Meet Prince Charming") promote a lot of Ken Ham's materials.

BTW, my summary of the tract is very brief. The original is over 30 pages long. If anyone has questions, I'll try to answer them.

[Visionoyahweh]

I know Gothard doesn't allow interracial marriage.

[Minerva]

Yeah, they had no racism before Darwin came along! And don't these people not believe in gene mutations???

[Daenerys]

Isn't there something in the Bible about it being ok to stay married to a non-christian (or Jew?) if one of them converts after the marriage? I swear there is but I can't remember where...

[Aurora]

It's actually true that the concept of race has little scientific basis. But we only know that thanks to *modern genetics* - how ironic!

[Kaylee]

Isn't there something in the Bible about it being ok to stay married to a non-christian (or Jew?) if one of them converts after the marriage? I swear there is but I can't remember where...

Yes. It's in I Corinthians 7:

To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

(1 Corinthians 7:12-16 ESV)

That said, if people are unmarried, there are several things in the Bible that do support the idea that a Christian should not marry a non-Christian. I'd add common sense too, especially someone who is very involved in their church or very committed to their faith, because it does create problems pretty often.

Back to the OP, I sort of agree with Ham there. Race is really subjective and people are mostly varied shades rather than distinct racial groups anymore, if they ever were. I'd say the Bible is OK with interracial marriage, just not inter-faith - even though the Jews were forbidden from marrying non-Jews, Moses married and Ethiopian woman and god was cool with it and cursed those who tried to make a big deal about it.

Some fundie churches and groups are/were against interracial dating, but that attitude seems to be fading even among the fundies. Most of the self-identified fundamentalists I know now accept interracial marriage (at least in theory, because fundie-dom around here is still mostly white) and reject racism. Many go ahead and say that racism is a sin, although it is one that is very rarely addressed from the pulpit or in church. I did belong to a church that was against interracial dating 5 years or so ago, but they do not teach that now and the pastor has specifically addressed racism and prejudice as sins the church needs to repent of and work against in society (different pastor than the one who was against it, but the former pastor has cahgned in a lot of ways, too).

[chiccy]

I know Gothard doesn't allow interracial marriage.

Really? Do you have a link??

I've wondered about this a lot; the Duggars are friends with at least one black family. I've often contemplated whether any of the kids would be allowed to marry a black fundie. Honestly, it doesn't seem like any of them would have the balls to do it, except for maybe JD and our Jinger. But I'm curious nonetheless.

[Undesigned]

Really? Do you have a link??

I've wondered about this a lot; the Duggars are friends with at least one black family. I've often contemplated whether any of the kids would be allowed to marry a black fundie. Honestly, it doesn't seem like any of them would have the balls to do it, except for maybe JD and our Jinger. But I'm curious nonetheless.

Copy, would like to see a link. Also my integration senses noticed that Jinger seems like one of the less 'black-adverse' children. Jessa is at the top of the adverse list; she pulls out Jinger-style eye rolls and smuggar snears when black people are around... just my observation.

[Visionoyahweh]

Really? Do you have a link??

I've wondered about this a lot; the Duggars are friends with at least one black family. I've often contemplated whether any of the kids would be allowed to marry a black fundie. Honestly, it doesn't seem like any of them would have the balls to do it, except for maybe JD and our Jinger. But I'm curious nonetheless.

I read it on recovering grace from a former staffer at one of the facilities. They said family photos of interracial couples automatically got your membership application rejected at ATI.

JB would never allow interracial grandkids. The whole movement is a huge racist FU.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

But over successive generations, darker skinned people flourished in certain climates while lighter skinned people flourished in other climates. Add gene mutations and this is how the "races" as we know them today came to exist.

:hand: Whoa! Kind of sounds like evolution!

Not that I agree with KH's point here at all, but I do not think I (being an atheist) could marry someone with significant religious convictions, and i think interreligious unions would be very hard to last through the long term, period. You can work around racial/ethnic/cultural differences but it's very hard to sustain a marriage when one partner thinks the other is going to hell/is deluded/or whatever.

[Undesigned]

I read it on recovering grace from a former staffer at one of the facilities. They said family photos of interracial couples automatically got your membership application rejected at ATI.

JB would never allow interracial grandkids. The whole movement is a huge racist FU.

Wowzie. I think one of Joy's Bff's is biracial, however she is adopted. So then who are these biracial [adopted by default] ATI kids allowed to marry? Once you're born biracial any relationship you can enter will be an interracial relationship.

[Anise]

Ken Ham may say that under Creationism , race doesn't matter (race is a social construct anyways- arguing over genetics is not the point). However, how many interracial couples are portrayed in AiG products? Or more pointedly still, how many fundies are in interracial marriages, and those that are, what kind? The two interracial fundie couples that I know are White male/East Asian female. Given that East Asian women are stereotyped as more submissive than White women, I wouldn't be surprised if this coupling were one of the commonest.

[sassyNoz47]

Really? Do you have a link??

I've wondered about this a lot; the Duggars are friends with at least one black family. I've often contemplated whether any of the kids would be allowed to marry a black fundie. Honestly, it doesn't seem like any of them would have the balls to do it, except for maybe JD and our Jinger. But I'm curious nonetheless.

I've never seen a black fundie family. Were they on the show?

[Undesigned]

I've never seen a black fundie family. Were they on the show?

Yep, they were a host family on the most recent episode when the Dugs went to NYC and did "mission work". The Pollards.

[B5SnowDog]

Not that I agree with KH's point here at all, but I do not think I (being an atheist) could marry someone with significant religious convictions, and i think interreligious unions would be very hard to last through the long term, period. You can work around racial/ethnic/cultural differences but it's very hard to sustain a marriage when one partner thinks the other is going to hell/is deluded/or whatever.

Eh, I think it depends on the people involved. I'm an atheist and my husband is Christian - we've been together for 10 1/2 years and married for almost 7. Religion is one thing we never fight about because we both have a live-and-let-live attitude about it. If we had children, that might be harder but since we don't, I can't say.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Eh, I think it depends on the people involved. I'm an atheist and my husband is Christian - we've been together for 10 1/2 years and married for almost 7. Religion is one thing we never fight about because we both have a live-and-let-live attitude about it. If we had children, that might be harder but since we don't, I can't say.

Power to you. :clap:

I do have kids, that figures a lot into my reasoning, I coudln't marry someone who would feel tempted to convert/brainwash them.

[chiccy]

So then who are these biracial [adopted by default] ATI kids allowed to marry? Once you're born biracial any relationship you can enter will be an interracial relationship.

This is a really good point. I'd love to know the answer.

I agree that Jessa seems a little black-averse although, in her defense, the guy who was flirting with her on the Metro in DC was not only black, but also flirting with her, which is never allowed.

What the hell kind of group doesn't allow interracial marriage. How low can you fucking stoop? How many years back into the past do you think we should be reverting?? This makes me sick.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Ah, good ol' Ken Ham. What else can he be wrong about? There's the evolution thing, then his hilarious nonsense about how Chinese characters supposedly talk of the flood...

As for black fundies don't forget the Bauchams. I have no idea if the Duggars know them though?

[chiccy]

As for black fundies don't forget the Bauchams. I have no idea if the Duggars know them though?

I can't imagine the Duggars and the Bauchams being on the same wavelength. Even though they sometimes act stupid (as do all fundies), the Bauchams seem intellectually lightyears away from the Duggars.

[Minerva]

Eh, I think it depends on the people involved. I'm an atheist and my husband is Christian - we've been together for 10 1/2 years and married for almost 7. Religion is one thing we never fight about because we both have a live-and-let-live attitude about it. If we had children, that might be harder but since we don't, I can't say.

I'm Christian and my partner is an atheist. A live-and-let-live attitude is necessary for it to work out, but you've also got to have similar non-religious beliefs. My partner would definitely not be with me if I believed in proselytizing, and I definitely wouldn't be with him if he was actively averse to religion. But he also wouldn't be with me if I were, for example, anti-gay or misogynistic xenophobic. I would never date an anti-gay/misogynistic/xenophobic christian either. And neither of us would ever never date an anti-gay/misogynistic/xenophobic non-religious person. Basically, for us, there are tons of more important things to have in common than whether we think there's a god out there or not.

On an unrelated note, most of the homophobic people I've met were non-religious. I think it's because I grew up in a more rednecky part of a relatively secular province.

[B5SnowDog]

I do have kids, that figures a lot into my reasoning, I coudln't marry someone who would feel tempted to convert/brainwash them.

Yeah, I'd be much more cautious about it if I had kids. :-)

[B5SnowDog]

I'm Christian and my partner is an atheist. A live-and-let-live attitude is necessary for it to work out, but you've also got to have similar non-religious beliefs. My partner would definitely not be with me if I believed in proselytizing, and I definitely wouldn't be with him if he was actively averse to religion. But he also wouldn't be with me if I were, for example, anti-gay or misogynistic xenophobic. I would never date an anti-gay/misogynistic/xenophobic christian either. And neither of us would ever never date an anti-gay/misogynistic/xenophobic non-religious person. Basically, for us, there are tons of more important things to have in common than whether we think there's a god out there or not.

That's a good point. We have similar positions on various social and political issues plus we're both crazy cat people. ;-)

[Snickerdoodle]

Some fundie churches and groups are/were against interracial dating, but that attitude seems to be fading even among the fundies. Most of the self-identified fundamentalists I know now accept interracial marriage (at least in theory, because fundie-dom around here is still mostly white) and reject racism.

Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. But my daughter went to a local church's first meeting of a newly formed fellowship group for young adults and it came out that some of the attendees - people around 20 years old - felt that interracial marriage is wrong because "the cultures are just too different." The irony here is that my daughter, sitting right there among them, is bi-racial. It never surprises me to run into racists over 40 years old, but I'm always shocked when I meet a racist under the age of 25. I guess I naively think the younger generations have gotten smarter than their parents and grandparents.

[FloraDoraDolly]

This is a really good point. I'd love to know the answer.

I agree that Jessa seems a little black-averse although, in her defense, the guy who was flirting with her on the Metro in DC was not only black, but also flirting with her, which is never allowed.

You really need to be on your guard when you are using public transportation and are approached by strange men. I have had some bad experiences with weirdos on the bus. And yes, a lot of those weirdos happened to be black. I would not judge Jessa or any other female who feels threatened in this type of environment.

What the hell kind of group doesn't allow interracial marriage. How low can you fucking stoop? How many years back into the past do you think we should be reverting?? This makes me sick.

Loving vs. Virginia was in 1967, not that long ago.

[Sola]

I've never seen a black fundie family. Were they on the show?

Don't think they have been on the show but the Bauchams are a black fundie family. Voddie Baucham is very much part of the 'in crowd' at Vision Forum - probably as their token black guy.