Modesty madness

[Kaylee]

I thought the "toe cleavage" thing was mainly an obsession of certain IFBs. I know many of the other IFBs think it's a crack and a lot of times it's used as sort of a punchline to joke/snark about how some go to extremes with the whole "modesty standards" thing.

[notsocommon]

TOE CLEAVAGE??????????????????????????? WHAT

No words for that one. I *do* wear combat boots so haven't a lot of experience with men staring lustfully at my toes. But surely the logical conclusion of this is that if anything a woman could possibly do might arouse a man, she has to stop doing it. And, as men can get aroused by *anything* even the presence of a woman, women need to commit suicide en masse.

How can any woman stay in a movement which so obviously hates her?

This is exactly what I was trying to explain to my fundie friend once. There is absolutely no way a woman can dress that does not cause some men to lust. A woman can wear a long skirt and men will find that attractive. She can have long hair if some man finds that attractive should she then cut it? What about men who find short hair attractive? A woman can NOT win in this area!

I then told her about how I get far more lewd looks and comments from men when I am dressed in her idea of 'modestly' than when I am in my more normal clothes (which are normal modest)

 Of course it WOOSHED right over her head.

That, and I saw a discovery/nova/ whateveritwas show a year or two back that studied this. They put men in the MRI (or is it CAT) scanners and showed them pictures of women dressed in different ways. They found that while 'simply' clad women got an immediate reaction out of men, the more conservatively dressed women got a more prolonged response. The conclusion was they saw what a woman in a bikini had, but were more tantalized by what they imagined the more conservative women had.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Modesty is supposed to mean a humble spirit and NOT bringing attention to yourself.

Therefore unless it's a beer bash type one, no tube tops at funerals and don't wear a 3 piece suit and silk tie and cuff links to a bbq unless it's a GOP fundraiser. Common Sense SHOULD dictate clothing. But people who LOVE legalism will find anything to ruin! "Toe Cleavage" well, when you can't see anything else....

I do want to thank the many QF/P/generally nerdy guys who NEVER defraud me by clinging to their hopelessly dorky pleated dockers, tidy white-ys, full undershirts and bad colored golf shirts!

[emeraldskull]

I know for some fundies, the argument is the Bible says men should dress as men do and women as women do (which, taken literally, I personally think means that the fundies should dress the way their respective gender did in Biblical times, but that's another story)

See, that's the thing... in Bible times EVERYONE wore robes. To our current culture: dresses. I think the fundies are trying to take a Bible verse and apply it to the "perfect era", pants for men, dresses for women. But yeah, if this is the verse supposedly used to say "women should not wear pants as they are men's clothes", then why don't we take it all the way back and wear what Jesus wore? :-P NOMORE defrauding!!!!

Oh, wait.... :roll:

[O Latin]

Modesty is supposed to mean a humble spirit and NOT bringing attention to yourself.

Therefore unless it's a beer bash type one, no tube tops at funerals and don't wear a 3 piece suit and silk tie and cuff links to a bbq unless it's a GOP fundraiser. Common Sense SHOULD dictate clothing. But people who LOVE legalism will find anything to ruin! "Toe Cleavage" well, when you can't see anything else....

I do want to thank the many QF/P/generally nerdy guys who NEVER defraud me by clinging to their hopelessly dorky pleated dockers, tidy white-ys, full undershirts and bad colored golf shirts!

And I want to thank them for defrauding ME every day (the nerdy ones, anyway, not the QF ones). :dance:

[loveandwar]

I generally get more male attention when I'm 1) wearing a dress/skirt OR 2) wearing baggy clothes and no makeup, which usually happens when I'm sick and have to go to class. Explain that, fundies. It doesn't matter how you dress - you will still get attention from the opposite sex!

[JesusFightClub]

I saw a discovery/nova/ whateveritwas show a year or two back that studied this. They put men in the MRI (or is it CAT) scanners and showed them pictures of women dressed in different ways. They found that while 'simply' clad women got an immediate reaction out of men, the more conservatively dressed women got a more prolonged response. The conclusion was they saw what a woman in a bikini had, but were more tantalized by what they imagined the more conservative women had.

That's it, it's the allure of the imagination! Dressing in a really ostentatiously modest way is going to make men think "what's she hiding underneath?" Like the stereotypical "librarian" who pulls off her glasses and shakes her hair down from its tight bun...

[deborahlynn1979]

It's so funny to me that people who very likely despise Islamic culture basically want to put their daughters in burkas.

[kb2]

OK, this toe cleavage thing--I have a friend who works in an office where business casual dress is required (and it borders on business formal), and she once said she didn't wear shoes with "toe cleavage" because she was afraid they would be too sexy for work. That was the first time I had ever heard of the distinction between shoes with and without toe cleavage, so I thought it was a secular thing. Can it be a secular thing, or is it only only only something that comes from fundies?

[Olivia]

Oh, toe cleavage as sexy is definitely a secular thing too -- since foot fetishes transcend fundamentalism. But i don't think most normal people worry about it, though it DOES turn some guys on.

But then again, everything turns some one on. I always find the dresses for modesty thing funny, because I love wearing dresses, but it doesn't matter how modest they are -- they always turn heads. Men seem to like looking at dresses and skirts just because.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Hmm, I wonder how fundies would react to people who live in nudist colonies and aren't having orgies right and left, like they probably suspect they are? Rarely are members of nudist colonies Adonises and/or model-beautiful.

Toe cleavage on others looks nice; on me, it's gross. The words "toe cleavage" together are gross.

I now want to go shoe shopping.

[Sola]

It's so funny to me that people who very likely despise Islamic culture basically want to put their daughters in burkas.

Wouldn't work. There are some people with burqa fetishes. Like I said, rule 36. If it exists, there is a fetish for it.

[nolongerIFBx]

I was just gonna ask about that. What about men with a foot fetish? Should women wear combat boots to address that? :?

Oh no, of course not. Boots are manly so should not be worn by females. (Yes, did hear this addressed from the pulpit, most likely in the direction of my sister who had a pair of suede boots from Arizona Jean Co.)

[ladypuglover]

I had a cab driver tell me I could get half fare if he could touch my ankles. :shock:

So..... did you get half fare? ;)

[fundiefan]

I had a friend who was into the toe cleavage thing, at least as far as noticing and mentioning it. It's the crease between your big toe and second toe and he always brought it up when women wore pumps where just that bit poked above the shoe. It became a big joke among our group of friends for a while. That was almost 20 years ago though. Weird. I thought it was just his thing. I've never known anyone else who thought of it or mentioned it.

[Angri-la]

Wouldn't work. There are some people with burqa fetishes. Like I said, rule 36. If it exists, there is a fetish for it.

And in Islamic cultures, women used to show their eyes, but had to go to the beekeeper route because ladies' eyes, they DEFRAUD. And ankle, oh yeah, I can't keep my defrauding eyes off a hot tibia!

[emmiedahl]

The funny thing about Brandy's brood that just hit me... she is talking about how shirts need to be a certain cut to avoid cleavage for her tiny little daughters. Er, your two year old does not have cleavage. And if a man is turned on by the sight of her knees, he has a real problem.

[fundiefan]

The funny thing about Brandy's brood that just hit me... she is talking about how shirts need to be a certain cut to avoid cleavage for her tiny little daughters. Er, your two year old does not have cleavage. And if a man is turned on by the sight of her knees, he has a real problem.

Really? She said that?

I'm appalled at how it is the fundies who sexualize children. Not the evil men of the general public who can't control themselves. They make their two year old a sexual being. THEY DO IT.

I've seen two years olds run around naked in the summer. There is nothing sexual about it. The two year old wasn't/isn't embarrassed because he/she was not taught that being naked is tantalizing to every adult within its realm of existence. The lack of a soggy, wet diaper frees them to run in and out the pool/sprinkler/whatever without restraint. End. Of. Story. Who, in their right mind, would make that sexual? Who could make that sexual?

[denimjumper]

So what does modesty look like in our home?

In our home, that means skirts/dresses below the knee. Preferably mid-calf so it's below the knee when we sit as well. For added modesty, our girls wear shorts or something under their skirts/dresses. It means no backless dresses or shirts. We prefer our shirts show no shoulder. And tops are 2-3" above the chest area, so that cleavage isn't exposed

Um, that's what my daughter wears if she wears a skirt/dress. And shorts are to the knee.

Does that make me a fundie?

[fundiefan]

Um, that's what my daughter wears if she wears a skirt/dress. And shorts are to the knee.

Does that make me a fundie?

Probably not. Everyone has their own standards.

Even as I get all worked up over the perceived sexualization of a two year old, I fight my own battle in real life. I have a relative who is a 16 year old bombshell. She has parents who allow her to wear all kinds of half clothing like very mini skirts, string bikinis, cropped tops that are cropped far above just her stomach, shorts that are shorter than short shorts. It makes me crazy and is kind of an obsessive topic if it comes up and I'm given even a slight window opening to express my opinion on the matter.

As with everything, there needs to be a balance and common sense needs to be used. Don't imagine sexual things about your two year old and don't allow your teenage to dress like a pole dancer.

[Marserin]

But that's a fetish as well!

Short of wearing a head-to-toe clown costume and makeup, women just can't avoid... *does a search on Google* never mind.

Apparently fundies just prove Rule 34 (If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions).

[denimjumper]

Don't imagine sexual things about your two year old and don't allow your teenage to dress like a pole dancer.

This is the thing I struggle with. If I dress my child at 4 in a bikini and tank tops, why would she not want to wear a bikini or tank top at 12? It seems to be easier to maintain modest dress if it starts early, not changes mid stream in adolescence. This is my observation.

[clibbyjo]

My 12 year old is tall and thin. She looks 14. She has 1 pair of jean shorts which are "shortish",the rest are knee length. She has a tankini top with boy short bottoms for a bathing suit, and she wears 2 tank tops(all her friends do)if one is too low. Thats the way it is. She doesn't wear skirts at all,she hates them.

[O Latin]

Really? She said that?

I'm appalled at how it is the fundies who sexualize children. Not the evil men of the general public who can't control themselves. They make their two year old a sexual being. THEY DO IT.

I've seen two years olds run around naked in the summer. There is nothing sexual about it. The two year old wasn't/isn't embarrassed because he/she was not taught that being naked is tantalizing to every adult within its realm of existence. The lack of a soggy, wet diaper frees them to run in and out the pool/sprinkler/whatever without restraint. End. Of. Story. Who, in their right mind, would make that sexual? Who could make that sexual?

Okay, I don't know diddly about kids, but it seems like it would be easier to teach a kid that you can't run around naked at the beach from the begging rather than letting them do it when they're little and then having to convince/explain to them why they can't do it anymore when they get older. So if your standards of modesty say that shirts can't be more than two inches below the collar bone or whatever, it makes sense to just enforce that from the time your kids are little.

[liltwinstar]

Well, I think that kids can recognize that there are appropriate places to be dressed a certain way. Little babies wearing those diaper covers with the ruffles on the butt? Totally appropriate, and cute. If you were 12 years old and wearing that, it's not so cute anymore. Bathing suits are appropriate at the beach or the swimming pool - not at the grocery store, stuff like that. I think most kids can recognize that.

One of my mom's clothing rules was that as a child I was not allowed to wear black. She felt it was inappropriate for little girls. Not that it was "wrong", not that it was "sexual" just that it wasn't appropriate. I think there are a lot of clothes that I wouldn't let a child wear (such as a skirt that was designed to be a mini skirt, or super tight, short shorts). Not that I think the kid would be "sexualized" by them, but ther're just not appropriate for children. Children's clothes should allow them to play and move, and a lot of adult women's clothing forces you to sit/stand/behave in ways that don't allow you to play, get on the floor, get dirty, etc.

I find it kind of funny when people make blaknet statement about "2 inches below the collarbone" or whatever. Would it really be a big deal if a shirt was 2 1/4 inches below the collarbone? Also, every person is shaped differently. For example, I am really, really curvy - large bust, large hips, defined waist. Fat or thin, that's just how my body is shaped. So in order for me to be "modest" by a lot of these arbitrary standards, I'd have to wear clothes that were at least a size too big. I look best (and most "modest" if you will) in clothes that flatter my curves - such as v-necked tops, which I know some fundies poo-poo. Jewel-necked tops are not flattering at all on me and just make me look chubby and awkward. Same with Duggar-style girl polo tops. Yes, I'd be covered in them, but not modest, because it would be totally obvious that my body doesn't work under those clothes, if that makes sense - my boobs would still stick out, my hip curve would, etc etc. I look better in clothes that take my shape into account - then the curves are in the right places and they aren't as obvious, if that makes sense.