Modesty madness

[denimjumper]

My 12 year old is tall and thin. She looks 14. She has 1 pair of jean shorts which are "shortish",the rest are knee length. She has a tankini top with boy short bottoms for a bathing suit, and she wears 2 tank tops(all her friends do)if one is too low. Thats the way it is. She doesn't wear skirts at all,she hates them.

My DD12 wears board shorts and a swim shirt (kind of like Anna Duggar's sister wore on TV that time). She was never told to wear this, she just came to me and said she didn't like to wear a one piece bathing suit because she felt naked in it. And she didn't like the sun (she is very fair and blond) so I suggested some cute board shorts and she loves them.

My niece is 13 and wears the triple sleeveless tanks with her bra straps hanging out. I don't like this look. I'm not her mother and I wouldn't tell her what to wear, but I think she should be more covered.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am noticing that clothing in tween/junior sizes often leaves me wondering, "Where is the rest of it?". Funny how the mini skirts I wore in high school seem almost chaste by comparison. I don't emphasize modesty with my almost 8 yo, but I refuse to buy styles I think are too grownup. She will only be a little girl for a few more years.

[fundiefan]

Okay, I don't know diddly about kids, but it seems like it would be easier to teach a kid that you can't run around naked at the beach from the begging rather than letting them do it when they're little and then having to convince/explain to them why they can't do it anymore when they get older. So if your standards of modesty say that shirts can't be more than two inches below the collar bone or whatever, it makes sense to just enforce that from the time your kids are little.

I never thought of what is easier. As the kids get older and are teenagers and 'fill out' part of their life education should be social rules of behavior. If an extended breastfeeding mom can nurse a 4 year old in public, it is not that hard for her to explain to her 14 year old why she can't go for the boob while they're at the mall. Life is about living and learning, not being given all rules for all of life out of the womb. I know I was one of the naked sprinkler runners around 3, since there is photographic evidence. But, somewhere along the line I was taught how to be an individual teenager without running around naked. The fact that as a toddler I ran naked through the sprinkler didn't really have an impact or affect on what I was taught as a teenager, who developed her own sense of modesty even without parental directives.

When I was two I peed and pooped in my diapers. I eventually learned to use a toilet. It would not be appropriate now for me to take care of business in a diaper without a physical/medical reason. Or use a sippy cup. Or suck a pacifier or sleep with a blanket and/or stuffed animal. Or to fall down on the floor of the grocery store in a tantrum because mom won't buy me what I want. Yet, a five year old is TAUGHT the way to avoid that and deal with disappointment and frustration without having a public tantrum.

If you sexualize the existence of an infant/toddler, you alone do it. Not society. And if you give infants and toddlers rules that apply to teens and adults, you are bypassing the entire process of learning and growing and teaching. Not to mention missing out on all the fun and beauty of a toddler's learning and growing experience.

[darkplumaged]

Good points, fundiefan.

In addition to those points about development, our preferences change over time. Just because a kid wants to wear certain things during a phase of her life, it doesn't mean she'll always want to wear those things, so there's not much sense in worrying about future clothing rules. I used to love running around shirtless when I was 4. Did I do that at 14? No, and I had no desire to.

Then, when I was 17, I sometimes liked wearing short shorts and those tight baby tees that were in style in the 90s. I looked cute in these clothes because I was young and skinny. Now that I'm 33 and not so skinny, I don't want to wear today's equivalent of those clothes, not only because they wouldn't flatter my body, but because I have moved past them. They aren't "me" anymore, and they're not that becoming to women in their 30s.

I would also note that there are degrees with regard to dressing. A tank top with wide straps and a moderate neckline is not the same thing as a strappy, skintight camisole. Bermuda shorts are not booty shorts. You can designate one category as appropriate while not permitting the other (as long as a child is willing to follow wardrobe guidelines/restrictions).

[ladypuglover]

I never thought of what is easier. As the kids get older and are teenagers and 'fill out' part of their life education should be social rules of behavior. If an extended breastfeeding mom can nurse a 4 year old in public, it is not that hard for her to explain to her 14 year old why she can't go for the boob while they're at the mall. Life is about living and learning, not being given all rules for all of life out of the womb. I know I was one of the naked sprinkler runners around 3, since there is photographic evidence. But, somewhere along the line I was taught how to be an individual teenager without running around naked. The fact that as a toddler I ran naked through the sprinkler didn't really have an impact or affect on what I was taught as a teenager, who developed her own sense of modesty even without parental directives.

When I was two I peed and pooped in my diapers. I eventually learned to use a toilet. It would not be appropriate now for me to take care of business in a diaper without a physical/medical reason. Or use a sippy cup. Or suck a pacifier or sleep with a blanket and/or stuffed animal. Or to fall down on the floor of the grocery store in a tantrum because mom won't buy me what I want. Yet, a five year old is TAUGHT the way to avoid that and deal with disappointment and frustration without having a public tantrum.

If you sexualize the existence of an infant/toddler, you alone do it. Not society. And if you give infants and toddlers rules that apply to teens and adults, you are bypassing the entire process of learning and growing and teaching. Not to mention missing out on all the fun and beauty of a toddler's learning and growing experience.

:clap: Bravo fundiefan, Bravo!

[ChickeyMonkey]

I would love to let my 2 year old run around naked, but I don't want to worry about pee getting between the slats of the wood-vinyl floor.

I have no problem letting my almost 8 year old boy strip down to nothing when changing at the beach, as long as he's OK with it. I guess it's not considerate of other people around us, but it's not like we're standing in the middle of wherever and putting on a show for everyone. It's just easier and faster for him to strip down at the car, let me help him towel off, and put new underwear on and clothes. It's not like he's hit puberty yet. I think once he hits puberty, or gets close, he won't want to do that anymore.

Opinions? Is allowing him to change in an area where I can easily help him, but is also public (like, with the car door open to help shield him, my husband and I standing in a way to also shield him, etc.) that horrible? I'm guessing some will think it's horrible and others will think it's no big deal.

As for running around naked, I'd prefer that toilet-trained kids wear underwear, but only because the skin in the groin area is sensitive and I wouldn't want them to fall and scrape themselves in such a sensitive area. It would be a skin protection thing, not a modesty thing.

[Katiebug]

We have an 11 month old daughter. While baby and even most toddler girl clothes are quite appropriate for wear, I take issue with 7 and 8 year olds sporting daisy dukes with words on the butt, halter tops, etc. I think we're going to be shopping exclusively at Land's End and LL Bean to avoid those kinds of clothes. My husband and I are social liberals who belong to a mainstream Protestant church - yet we expect our kids to wear appropriate clothing. Booty shorts on a 10 year old is not appropriate so why would we have a 4 year old in booty shorts? There's also a lot of "character" avoidance involved (no Disney princess stuff or Elmo/Sesame Street/Dora/whatever). So we choose clothing for her now in styles that will be good for her as she grows. She has shorts, capri pants, etc. as well as dresses. She has some tank style/sleeveless onesies and sun dresses and those are fine too. Really for a baby there is little that is inappropriate but this will come into play in bigger sizes (after the toddler sizes) when some clothing becomes wildly mature for lack of a better term.

We've been taking the baby to parent/child swim lessons for almost 6 months. When they started it was February and she got chilled easily in the pool so we got her one of those long sleeved rash guard shirts to help keep her a bit warmer. We had some ignorant person at the Y ask if we were Mormon or Muslim because apparently a tank swimsuit and a long sleeved rash guard on a 6 month old is "repressive". :lol: I didn't know that trying to keep my kid's teeth from chattering by the end of the lesson made us WASPs oh-so-repressive.

We switched to a short sleeved rash guard swimsuit for her summer beach and backyard pool wear, just because there's less skin on which to be paranoid about sunblock application. Few things are cuter (IMO) than a nakey or swim-diapered baby splashing in a kiddie pool in the backyard, but our kid is so fair that she can't do so on a sunny day for more than a few minutes. If as she gets older she wants to wear a tankini or bikini that would be OK as long as she's old enough to get her sunblock on her.

[clibbyjo]

I am kind of on the "if something is hanging out, its a NO" when I buy things for my daughter. I finally allowed the shorter jean shorts just a few weeks ago,but she tried them on and I decided.(they are not super short "booty shorts",but still pretty short for what I normally allow) Her best friends moms and I agree,so the girls wear the same stuff all summer(basically its jean shorts and 2/3 tanktops everyday. We take them shoppong together a few times and every tanktop they chose(from somewhere like Wet Seal or Rue 21) that is low they know they are wearing another under the low one so that makes it easier when the other moms agree.

I do not want her wearing a bikini now,but when she is 16 I will allow it if she wants. I did,and I figure you really only look good in a bikini for a short time so live it up. Besides, she will have her black belt in Tae Kwon do by age 16, so she can handle anyone who looks at her wrong. :)

[maybeizfundie]

I think all but a very few recognize that there is a difference between an infant and a well-developed 16 year old, in terms of what is appropriate to wear.

I vaguely remember years ago someone talking about how they wouldn't put leggings on their infant daughter, because they didn't want her to get used to "bifurcated" (!!) clothing. Most people, even the most fundy of fundy folks, are a little more reasonable than that.

But I'm glad to see that there are plenty who recognize that there is also clothing that just isn't appropriate at all, and that clothing which brings inappropriate sexuality to a small child does exist. Some of it is designed that way.

We have only boys so far, so it's not a huge worry for us right now. It is just plain easy to find simple, comfortable clothes without potentially objectionable messages. Things tend to be cut looser for boys, and I don't have to check shirts and the backs of pants for "hot" or "sexy" messages.

[jenny_islander]

To me, dressing children in a sexually suggestive way runs into the power issue. That is, children don't have any. "Ain't I cute (and BTW I am a powerless child)" can be taken as sexy by any random perv and there's nothing we can do about it. "Ain't I sexy (and BTW I am a powerless child)" is just plain wrong. Teaching children that they should be concerned about looking "hot" or deliberately trying to make them look "hot" distorts and destroys childhood.

There is a less fraught, but equally important issue: Sexy clothing is not practical for what kids should be doing, that is, playing.

So I don't put my girls in lacy tops, booty shorts, high heels, bikinis, or any of the other adult-inspired clothes I have found in their size. They wear flat-heeled tennis shoes or rain boots. Their play pants are cut down from their parents' old jeans and sweats because I have given up finding good play pants that don't show a muffin top. (I just found out that Hanna Anderssen makes deliberately un-hot and apparently sturdy jeans for girls, but they cost more than having our old things altered, and our girls can decorate their custom-made pants as they like.) Their shirts keep their arms from being scratched in the pricker bushes and their midriffs are out of reach of mosquitoes at all times. They are active, frequently dirty, and not at all concerned with looking like tiny pop starlets. Actually they don't know who those people are, except for Miley Cyrus, because she sings on the soundtrack of one of their favorite movies--and they don't watch her perform.

HOWEVER. Obsessing about modesty, fundamentalist style, is just as sexually saturated as dressing like a Bratz doll. Besides sheltering and protecting our bodies, our clothes signal who we are. But they are NOT magical switches that flip on other people's libidos, and treating all men and boys as if they are just one collarbone away from committing rape is disgusting. "You are a horndog, helpless in the throes of your lust" is just as bad as "I am simultaneously powerless and sexually aware."

[ADoyle90815]

Here's something interesting about modesty and young children:

http://ldsdotorg/friend/2011/06/hannahs ... s?lang=eng

[emmiedahl]

Sigh. I read that and it brings up issues I have with some Mormon relatives. They will comment to my children (not THEIR children, but mine) about things they are wearing, like, "Aren't you uncomfortable showing so much?" to a four year old in a modest, sleeveless sundress.