What would you have done?

[AudreyE]

Then don't mention God or Jesus -EVER- until they bring it up first. Spirituality =/= religion.

To this I would add: Religion =/= Christianity. That's why it's not respectful to project what comforts you onto others. Other people might not want religion, but if they do, it might be the pagens who save them.

Be kind, wear a cross, and be prepared to answer questions.

Edit to add for the record that I would not be terribly annoyed by someone handing me a book, if they didn't harp on the point, and I would be especially willing to overlook that, if the person had just saved my ass.

[Deleted03]

I still want to repeat that even though you just should try to avoid offering a christian book to someone in need, I think that after 4 hours of discussion in someone's house, discussing life problems, I would expect that religious matters arise. And I think that the person being pissed at that is

1- projecting other people's intentions on you;

2- not realizing how long she's outstayed her welcome, and build genuine links with you;

3- in the same spirit of mind where finding solutions is hard, and accepting other's solutions can never work (and truly I know more than one person like that, and one of those just sipped all patience out of me for the next 10 years).

Yes giving a religious book can be pretentious/inconsiderate, and now you know you have to be really careful to what type of person you can give those religiously colored items, but seriously this person's behavior and the fact that she's in front of you, more or less unhappy was just as inappropriate.

If I'm in a bad situation like that and someone opens her/his house to me, and I spend 4 hours with that person talking about my life problems, I expect that some meta ideas about what life is, what attitudes I should have about life (linked to a particular religion or not) will arise. I can take a book, throw it out or not, or take a look at it and leave and take what I want. But to be offended by someone sharing their perception of life is just as rude.

[moreorlessnu]

Her response: People had given her religious books and Bibles before. She had a pile of them at home. Apparently, a lot of people, on hearing this woman’s story, felt compelled to press works of a religious nature on her (...including me, it seems).

It occurred to me, as I contemplated her response, that I had seen the same situation with other people who lived in dire straits: A shortage of everything but religious instruction. Alas.

There's a lot of truth here. If you are hungry today, what you need right now is food. Prayer may be all well and good, but until it delivers food "now", it really isn't fulfilling your needs. Anything that does not provide for your most pressing need is not really a current solution.

And, maybe religion is one of several possible solutions that fall under the category of coping mechanisms. Maybe those that offer religion are truly trying to offer yet another coping strategy, but that isn't always the case.

You'll probably never know the answer to this question, but I'd be curious to what her response to you would have been had she not been in such a frazzled/stressed-out/etc. situation.

[Burris]

I think you seriously need to take a hard look at your own biases and pre-conceived notions before you can be a good chaplain (I hope this encounter was a wake up call for you) You saw a woman in distress and defaulted automatically to what brings you comfort, without regard to what might actually comfort her.

I agree that I need to examine (and will always continue to examine) my biases. I would, however, like to clarify something here: I did not bring this lady home and immediately jump her with talk of religion.

I asked her questions – and these were basic things, like her name – in an attempt to divert at least some of her attention from the stress of her immediate situation. I got a whole lot more than I bargained for in the answers.

For three-and-a-half hours, while listening to her speak and encouraging her to maintain continued phone contact with her daughter (which helped to keep the woman calm), I focused almost exclusively on finding her landlord and her bag so I could send her home. (Our place is designed for us: There are no interior doors, including to the bathroom, so it's easier for a wheelchair to manoeuvre. We don't encourage company: We like to meet our friends in public.)

I made a presumptuous mistake, but this occurred near the end of our discussion. I wanted so much to do something more helpful than sit there slack-jawed – hence the book. Indeed it could be argued, now that I've had more time to think about it, that my desire to offer further help was a peculiar act of pride. At the time, however? No. I didn't see it.

This idea that I plied the poor woman with religion for some hours while she was a captive audience at my table, though – no. Just...no.

There have been people here who've told stories about how religion causes them horrible anxiety. How they spent years constantly terrified of being a sinner and going to hell. Did you consider, even for a second, that the woman you were talking to might be caused even more anxiety by religion? Or, because that's not the case for you, did you just dismiss it as a possibility for everyone?

I had been interacting with this individual for several hours before I broached the subject of religious belief – a decision I made after she told me something especially troubling. I had judged, based on our prior interaction, that she might even have an interest in the subject (rather than that she would be anxious about it). So no, I didn't just throw in and expect her to kiss my ass in gratitude; or go in with the belief she would act as a carbon copy of me.

[Guest Anonymous]

Burris, I honestly don't know much about being a chaplain, so I am puzzled about how you think that you can learn from this experience in a way that would help you in your future role?

As I understand it, a chaplain is a member of a particular religion who is employed in a particular setting, eg, prison, army, college, to give spiritual guidance from a particular religious viewpoint.

On this basis, if you were faced with a similar situation again, but from a perspective of being an identified chaplain, I would see no problem with you behaving in a similar way again - as long as the playing ground was known to both of you, it should come as no surprise to the recipient of your help that you should offer Christian solace along with the help she asked for.

For me, the thing that made me uncomfortable with your original account, was simply that, at the point in time that you first offered help, the recipient had no knowledge of your Christian perspective on life - and for that reason, it came as no surprise to me that at the point that you did offer a Christian text, she was unreceptive to your offer.

Context is the key, I think, to understanding the expectation in any given setting.

[Turtle]

I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up something that has brought you comfort. If you had been talking with her for hours and discussing life problems, I think you can say: When I was struggling, XYZ gave me some solace. I have a book on it if you'd like. Whether it's a religion, spirituality, lifestyle or whatever. If the individual isn't interested, they can say thanks but no thanks.

It's if there is a power imbalance and the individual can't refuse, then I see it as a big problem.

If I were in your situation (although I don't know the specifics of the woman's problems so it's hard to say), I wouldn't offer a religious book because that hasn't brought me comfort or helped me through difficult situations. I might offer a meditation or poem that calms me down and helps me focus. I don't see that as too different.

[clarinetpower]

I'm sorry my metaphor wasn't making sense as I myself saw it. I get it. You don't get what I meant, and that's fine.

What I referred to was the fact that some people think Jesus is needed, and offering it *to them* is considered a kindness, and perhaps denying it may make them feel like they didn't do enough. They may be wrong in how it's perceived by the offerree (is that a word?), but that's what it is. It's a really hard situation to be in, because it can be so volatile. But if someone was quite obviously not up for it, as Valsa is, then you would hopefully pick up the cues to not offer. For example, going back to my failed metaphor, if the person was avoiding looking at the cake, sneered at the cake, mentioned that they just had a huge meal, flashed their insulin pump, etc., you wouldn't offer cake. But if they were cold, hungry and bereft and drooling at the sight of the cake, and you did not offer any of it, that would be worse, right? Cold, hungry, bereft was not intended as a metaphor for someone who does not have Christ in their life. My husband doesn't. He's a Buddhist, and he's not cold, hungry, or bereft, and I do not try to give him Jesus. What works for me does not work for him, and vice versa. I am fine with this. It is my belief that God reveals Godself to each of us in the way we need. But there have been others that have crossed my path that seemed to be searching for something, and sometimes I've been given the right words at the right time and Christ has comforted them. So it's hard to know.

What I meant by this was that not offering when it was possibly sought is pretty shitty (and especially since in the original situation, she simply said, "this book comforted me. If you're interested, I'm done with it and you can have it.").

And what I meant by not offering Valsa an oreo had nothing to do with hospitality. I would have made her a scotch on the rocks or a margarita, but since she was wearing a t-shirt that said "I Hate Chocolate!", there would be no cake, oreos, brownies or the like. ;)

Sorry my original post was testy. I was pissed at someone else and took it out on you. (Fundy catholic friend on FB who had a problem with my problem with Rush Limbaugh and the whole slut thing--AGH. I tell you. Sometimes, I just don't get people.)

OK, now that this answer is *really* confusing, I'm going to bed. :)

[valsa]

I had judged, based on our prior interaction, that she might even have an interest in the subject (rather than that she would be anxious about it).

I'd be interested to know what she said that you interpreted as possible interest, seeing as she ultimately was not interested. I worry that you're basically looking for reasons to think someone is interested.

The reason I asked if you had given any thought to whether religion was appropriate to this person is because of this from your OP:

But then I made what I believe to have been a faux-pas: Religious observance gives me comfort, so I try to gently encourage it in other people who appear to be distressed.

This shows no consideration of whether the distressed person might want or even be harmed by religion. To me, this outright states "I see a distressed person and "gently encourage" religious observation in them, without thinking of their individual wishes." I also find the phrase "gently encourage" to be distasteful in this case. I gentle encourage my toddler niece to use good manners at the table. I cannot think of a single instance where I'd have the balls the "gently encourage" something in an adult, because I can't think of a single instance where it would be my place to do so.

You obviously struggle with appropriate things to say when people overshare info and make you uncomfortable (don't feel bad, most people do) But since you want to be a chaplain, it'd be a good idea to work on some stock comforts to give that are universal. That way you'll be prepared next time and not come off as... well... as you did here.

[valsa]

But if someone was quite obviously not up for it, as Valsa is, then you would hopefully pick up the cues to not offer.

And what I meant by not offering Valsa an oreo had nothing to do with hospitality. I would have made her a scotch on the rocks or a margarita, but since she was wearing a t-shirt that said "I Hate Chocolate!", there would be no cake, oreos, brownies or the like. ;)

Except that I don't wear an "I Hate Chocolate" shirt and neither do I act "obviously not up for it". Since I love cake, I'm going to go with sauerkraut. I hate sauerkraut and even the smell of it makes me ill. However, I don’t wear a t-shirt that say “I hate sauerkraut†and if I go into someone’s house and see sauerkraut, I’m not going to make it obvious I hate sauerkraut (and neither would I expect someone to make up a bowl of sauerkraut and hand it to me out of the blue)

Religion is a lot more personal than food, which I why I don’t think you can really make a comparison between the two.

[darareaksmey]

Burris, since you asked: You did nothing wrong. Not in offering the book (but not throwing her out on her ear when she didn't want it) and not in bringing up the topic here. Had you pressed the lady, you would have gone over the line. But what if she had taken the book and said, thanks, I get lots of these but maybe I should read one for once? Just as many FJers would be pissed at you, but you might have actually had an even more positive effect on a troubled woman that you've already helped. You could not know that in advance. No harm, no foul.

[clarinetpower]

Thanks, Valsa! OK, I'm still wrong, and you're superior. No need to accept an apology. Bowing down. And out. Bye!

[Esther]

Eh, I think you sound like a pretty nice person and I think you really tried to help as much as you could, which is great.

On the other hand, I just don't know why anyone would give an obviously needy person a religion-themed book. These people know Christianity is out there. It's kinda hard to miss. They've probably been handed a Bible before. Fat load of help that is when you've got no job and no money. I'd personally hate it if someone helped me and then gave me a book on religion. And I'm not an atheist even.

Next time I'd suggest you just stick to saying supportive things and telling her about food banks etc. I think that would be just fine.

[1004srs]

Personally, the wait thing sounds like they were running a scam. You are lucky you weren't hurt.

[emmiedahl]

If I lost my purse, I would be so distraught and anxious. I can only hope that someone benevolent like you would help me. What you did was a very good thing, a very selfless thing. I don't think that you did this with religious motivations, which makes all the difference. It's not like you were thinking, "How can I turn this woman's need into an opportunity to share my religion with her?" A lot of churches reach out to the poor with that exact motivation, and that is despicable. But I think you were probably searching for ways to help her before she went on her way and this seemed like a great idea at the time.

The balance of power is key to this issue. If I were in this situation, I would have taken the book and then later donated it, simply not wanting to offend you but not really needing the spiritual guidance. Because if someone is helping me, I don't want to bite their hand or offend them, especially not when their help is the only way I will meet physical needs. You are very perceptive to see that there is an inherent problem.

In the future, I would ask if the person has a religious community that is helping them. This will probably help you to determine the next appropriate step. I have noticed that hospital chaplains ask this question first, so I assume it is part of chaplain training. If you really just want to be helpful, then the appropriate thing is to find support that aligns with their beliefs.

[valsa]

Thanks, Valsa! OK, I'm still wrong, and you're superior. No need to accept an apology. Bowing down. And out. Bye!

Aw, did someone not get her nap today?

[QAF_Rocks]

In the future, I would ask if the person has a religious community that is helping them. This will probably help you to determine the next appropriate step. I have noticed that hospital chaplains ask this question first, so I assume it is part of chaplain training.

I haven't spent much time in hospitals, but are chaplains provided automatically, or do you have to request them? Honestly, the very last thing I would want if I were confronted with a tragic illness or death would be to have a chaplain ask me that question. What are they trained to do if the person answers "no?"

[clarinetpower]

Aw, did someone not get her nap today?

Actually, no, and I haven't slept for 3 nights thanks to violent coughing and steroids, which aren't doing much to help. But thanks for your concern. :roll:

[Burris]

I haven't spent much time in hospitals, but are chaplains provided automatically, or do you have to request them? Honestly, the very last thing I would want if I were confronted with a tragic illness or death would be to have a chaplain ask me that question. What are they trained to do if the person answers "no?"

Most places I've been, the chaplain is usually requested by the patient (or they might appear along with an announcing doctor, etc, if someone has died).

To give you resources concerning your illness, or to check on your mental health, the hospital might send in a social worker as a matter of policy but not a religious figure – or at least one would hope.

As for what chaplains do when you answer, "No" - ideally whatever you'd prefer:They might leave, if you'd like, or give you a list of resources, or bring you items (such as books or pen and paper).

Unless you're at some religiously-affiliated hospital, chaplains should be versed in a wide variety of beliefs (or non-beliefs) and be prepared to respect them all.

[moreorlessnu]

Personally, the wait thing sounds like they were running a scam. You are lucky you weren't hurt.

That was my first thought, too, when I was reading your story.

[Burris]

Personally, the wait thing sounds like they were running a scam. You are lucky you weren't hurt.

I've been out among the homeless as part of my parechaplaincy for a few years now and it's only rarely that I've ever been menaced. We try to minimize the risk of such by, for example, giving only our first names, offering community resource referrals rather than our own home number, and – where appropriate – getting people to a homeless shelter or putting them up at the Y rather than ever, ever bringing them home.

We also carry cards and tickets and raw materials rather than cash.

I still don't think I got scammed, but I must admit, I wasn't terribly happy to bring a stranger back to my place. Ultimately, however – and I'm sure some of you will think I'm full of shit, but I'm actually quite serious – I'd rather risk being scammed than leave someone alone while she has what appears to be a breakdown in sub-zero weather.

And Emmiedahl is correct: I had no designs on trying to convert this woman, or anything of the sort. What I was actually thinking at the bus stop was, “If that were me, I'd be fucked. What should I do? Okay, so she can barely tell me her name let alone use the phone and it's so cold out here I just want to get on the next bus. Leave her? No. Take her? Where? I have 30 lbs of groceries! Oh, I know: Back to the lobby of my apartment. At least she won't know my unit number, and then we can warm up while she uses the phone.â€

And the rest if history.

[Burris]

You obviously struggle with appropriate things to say when people overshare info and make you uncomfortable (don't feel bad, most people do) But since you want to be a chaplain, it'd be a good idea to work on some stock comforts to give that are universal. That way you'll be prepared next time and not come off as... well... as you did here.

Actually yes, I really do struggle with this. I am perfectly comfortable with collating community resource lists and and doing everything else at arm's length - but when it comes down to the bare bones of interpersonal contact, I'm always at a bit of a loss when confronted, for example, by extreme grief or shocking admissions.

I know it's an odd disability in someone who wishes to be a chaplain, and yet I'm actually good at resource management, some kinds of research, advocacy letters, employment counselling for people with disabilities, navigating paperwork for subsidized housing, and so forth.

But alone with a person, face to face, by myself, talking about deeply personal matters...I usually leave that kind of thing up to people better at it than me. I suppose I rely on them too much, as a crutch, while I stick to things within my comfort zone.

[valsa]

I am perfectly comfortable with collating community resource lists and and doing everything else at arm's length - but when it comes down to the bare bones of interpersonal contact, I'm always at a bit of a loss when confronted, for example, by extreme grief or shocking admissions.

I feel for you there. For some reason, I get a lot of shocking admissions (oddly, most of them have to do with sexual abuse) I don't know why, other than I tend to be known as someone dependable, very grounded, and trustworthy in real life (but some of them do come from strangers so... I have apparently have an invisable "confide in me" sign on my back) What's always worked for me (I should point out I've had no kind of training, this is just personal experience) is to just show empathy and say things like "I am so sorry that happened to you." If they show anger, I get angry along with them "I can't believe someone could do that! What an awful person." If they show sadness, I show sadness "I understand why you're sad. I would be heartbroken if that happened to me too." (just be careful with the “I’d feel†statements. You want to validate what they feel by telling them it’s normal to feel that way, not tell them what you think they should be feeling)

I've never come across a person who wanted me to fix things for them (which is kind of what I view giving them a religious book as), though it is a natural instinct to want to fix things for people. Most people I've talked with just want someone to listen to them and validate what they feel. I’ve had an (extremely uncomfortable) hour long conversation with someone who was ranting and raving and crying that consisted entirely of a bunch of “I’m sorryâ€, “that’s so sadâ€, “that’s perfectly understandableâ€, “I’d feel the same way†and nodding. By the end of it, she seemed calm and thanked me for letting her vent, so I guess it worked.

The only thing I could see offering (if they seem receptive) is “You have so much on your plate emotionally. Have you ever tried seeing a counselor to help you work through some of it?†Then you could give them the community resources for therapy. The fact is- laypeople are good for shoulders to cry on but most of these people have much more serious problems that it would take a professional, and far longer than a brief encounter, to work on. If they seem open to it, encouraging therapy is going to do more good for a mentally ill (or emotionally fragile) person than anything else.

I would also, of course, completely avoid religion. Setting aside the fact I think brining up religion is rude and condescending, 1) this is America and they’ve already heard of religion, 2) if you’re bringing up the Christian religion you risk alienating non-Christians, and 3) religion is a cult and scam hotspot and if you send a vulnerable person out looking for a church/religion, you may very well be setting them on the path to being taken advantage of. Do you know how many people have been sucked into cults and abusive churches because they were vulnerable when they first came across them?

[QAF_Rocks]

Most places I've been, the chaplain is usually requested by the patient (or they might appear along with an announcing doctor, etc, if someone has died).

To give you resources concerning your illness, or to check on your mental health, the hospital might send in a social worker as a matter of policy but not a religious figure – or at least one would hope.

As for what chaplains do when you answer, "No" - ideally whatever you'd prefer:They might leave, if you'd like, or give you a list of resources, or bring you items (such as books or pen and paper).

Unless you're at some religiously-affiliated hospital, chaplains should be versed in a wide variety of beliefs (or non-beliefs) and be prepared to respect them all.

Thanks for the info. If it was a tragic event, I'm afraid I'd have just about zero patience for dealing with religion. But if I'm ever confronted with the situation, I hope I can respond somewhat graciously. I'd hate to make the chaplain feel bad, but if I didn't ask for one, it seems rather presumptuous for the hospital to have one show up. Maybe I should avoid religious hospitals? Of course, I guess you can't always control where you end up in case of an accident or sudden illness, and there's not much you can do if it's a friend or relative.

[Im2sexy4myskirt]

Then don't mention God or Jesus -EVER- until they bring it up first. Spirituality =/= religion.

I read the blog of an atheist in the military once. He said you could tell how good the Army chaplain was by how long it took him to mention God or Jesus to you. The ones who mentioned God and/or Jesus all the time? Probably going to be assholes, more concerned with lip service than actually doing anything for you. The ones who never mentioned Jesus or God until you brought it up first? Would probably walk through fire for you.

As a Christain, I absolutely agree with this. And it is how I try and live my own life. My personal motto is, love them until they ask you why. Do all you can for them, meet them on their terms, serve them, help them, befriend them, love them. And only when they ask why you have done these things ( if they ever do ask) then share with them your personal beliefs. But not until then.

[valsa]

Thanks for the info. If it was a tragic event, I'm afraid I'd have just about zero patience for dealing with religion. But if I'm ever confronted with the situation, I hope I can respond somewhat graciously. I'd hate to make the chaplain feel bad, but if I didn't ask for one, it seems rather presumptuous for the hospital to have one show up. Maybe I should avoid religious hospitals? Of course, I guess you can't always control where you end up in case of an accident or sudden illness, and there's not much you can do if it's a friend or relative.

I had to have what was essentially ass surgery once. The day after my surgery, a visitor came into my room to talk to me (I don't know if this was a chaplain or some random person the hospital has go visit people, but I certainly didn't ask for him to come) When he asked why I was in the hospital, I got to tell him "I had ass surgery!" He left very quickly (I'm guessing he was a chaplain) Bottom line- sometimes people do randomly feel entitled to bug you in the hospital and I see no reason to be gracious about it (I wasn't trying to be rude back then (I thought it was actually kind of funny) but had it been recently I would have read him the riot act)