What would you have done?

[Burris]

(At first blush, this will look like it belongs in QFC, but you'll see the QFS connection soon enough.)

I was waiting at the bus stop with a pile of groceries when approached by a clearly distraught woman asking whether or not a certain bus had passed.

She had left her purse on this route and, realizing her mistake only a moment too late, she had tried to run the distance of the large parking lot, amid drifts of snow, to reach the stop opposite and catch the same bus. No such luck. It had come and gone already.

When I told this woman the bus was gone, she began to sob; she was having a full-on panic attack because her house keys, her phone, her bus tickets, and (damn it) her anxiety medication were all in that bag.

Her capacity for decision-making had clearly been impaired by the anxiety, such that I worried she would end up sitting at that stop all night waiting for a bus that might not come again.

I offered to take the lady back to the lobby of the apartment complex where I live, because it was cold outside and the woman, in her current state, couldn't remember any relevant phone numbers.

Eventually, as she calmed down and my groceries began to melt, I invited her up to my suite for food and drink. (I'm not super comfortable doing that, but I saw little alternative.)

By this time, the woman had recalled her daughter's phone number, and contacted her.

It didn't matter that I had already tracked down the bag by calling the transit centre, and knew what garage it would be in after six; mother and daughter were hell-bent on finding the purse Right Fucking Now, so the daughter drove everywhere, all across the city, while I sat with her mom.

Instead of coming to pick up her mom after having failed to secure the purse, however, the daughter went to her own home to watch some TV while her mom and I waited at my place for the garage to open.

It was during these four hours -– it took us that long to find a number for the on-site management at the place where my guest lived, for keys –- that she told us about her life.

The woman revealed what I would call TMI – and she also talked about food and financial insecurity.

I gave her a book of local resources, marking off where the emergency food programs were, and urged her to use them. I gave her bus tickets. (Yes, I really do keep a pile of books like that around; my husband and I take them out when we engage in our own charitable activities.)

But then I made what I believe to have been a faux-pas: Religious observance gives me comfort, so I try to gently encourage it in other people who appear to be distressed.

I chose a book I enjoyed from my personal collection and gave it to the woman, telling her it was hers to do with as she wished.

Her response: People had given her religious books and Bibles before. She had a pile of them at home. Apparently, a lot of people, on hearing this woman’s story, felt compelled to press works of a religious nature on her (...including me, it seems).

It occurred to me, as I contemplated her response, that I had seen the same situation with other people who lived in dire straits: A shortage of everything but religious instruction. Alas.

(In my defence, I don't keep a stack of those books around. The book was meant as a legitimate and helpful gift. I had read and enjoyed it, and was happy to pass it on.)

There it was –- the painful truth: All kinds of people with all kinds of problems could probably build houses from all the religious books people throw at them, thinking that should be enough.

I’m just going to assume most of you think it was wrong of me to give this woman that book. What I would like to know is how to handle the situation in future:

My training goal is to become a chaplain, as money and time permit. Rather than weighing people down with yet more dogmatic instruction, what can I do to make a positive impact from what are necessarily short encounters with people in distress? Are there value-neutral books you might recommend? If you had been in the woman's situation, -- and remember, she told me about her life; I didn't ask – how would you want to be treated? (I know there are no cookie-cutter solutions, but I have to work within my limitations.)

[BravaAmica]

Just be kind.

[mnb357]

I would have done just as you did. As much as you'd like to hold her hand as she walks through rough patches, you can't, but you can leave your mark with the book. What she does with it is up to her.

[kpmom]

Burris, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. If you had *only* given her the religious book, then I'd agree it was a faux-pas and very insensitive. But you gave her a lot of help, and, it appears, gave her the book as a parting gift.

This is not what you asked, but I'd be a little concerned that this woman is being given bibles and religious books frequently when people hear her story. Is it possible she was a scam artist? The daughter's behavior is especially strange. Do you think the woman was hoping for more (i.e., $$$$) than the help you gave her?

[bellicosebroad]

I've been as desperate financially as that woman apparently was, and honestly... we don't want "God loves you," or, "Here, read this; it will comfort you." No, it won't. Your religious observances are *yours,* and they give *you* comfort. For those of us who are non-believers, it sounds trite and forced and empty.

It sounds like this woman had anxiety problems not related to dire financial circumstances, but honestly: when I was in that place, I wanted help and advice on what to *do*. Telling someone where they're hiring might also help if you know (it's actually how I got a job I desperately needed once), and offering resource information like food banks' locations, etc. was right, but the religious proselytizing? No. Not unless she told you she was a believer so that you knew it would comfort her. Otherwise, you're forcing your beliefs on her, which just adds to her burden.

[Jezebel]

Just be kind.

That, and don't bring up religion unless the person you're helping gives you a clear, unambiguous sign that they're open to it.

You've already had the realization that people who are poor or in bad straits aren't there because they've never been told about Jesus. Trust me--the poorer (or sicker) someone is and the tougher their circumstances are, the more likely they are to be the target of proselytizing of all kinds. Listening to someone tell them about Jesus is often the price paid for charitable help. Find Christ? They can't get away from him! :lol: And from my own experience, being down on my luck didn't make me more receptive to Christianity--it made me more likely to avoid those charities or individuals, even if it meant going hungry. And I was far from the only one who felt that way.

FWIW, I have a neighbor who does a lot of volunteer work with the homeless, and she's dealt with the same issue. She's settled on wearing a cross pendant, which doesn't sound like much. But she says that it serves as a subtle way of letting the people she helps know she's a Christian, and occasionally it opens up conversations about that. Until that happens, however, she just goes about the practical matters of getting people the help they need.

[Boogalou]

We actually had a discussion very similar to this just recently, it is worth the read: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7765 the situations are not the same but there are some parallels there.

A lot of what went on in there sums up my feelings on the whole thing, and for now I think that's all I will say so I don't sound mean. However, if I were in her situation I would not have wanted the book.

[doggie]

FWIW, I have a neighbor who does a lot of volunteer work with the homeless, and she's dealt with the same issue. She's settled on wearing a cross pendant, which doesn't sound like much. But she says that it serves as a subtle way of letting the people she helps know she's a Christian, and occasionally it opens up conversations about that. Until that happens, however, she just goes about the practical matters of getting people the help they need.

excellent post :clap: :dance: :clap: :dance:

[debrand]

Burris, what struck me about the story is how kind that you are. You were there for that women at a rough time for her and having someone show concern was probably what she needed most.

[Kitchen Princess]

Well, at least I hope you apologized and withdrew the book, and explained to her in some way why you thought it was such a faux pas. Otherwise, you can't really feel guilty about acting out of your heart.

[Burris]

This is not what you asked, but I'd be a little concerned that this woman is being given bibles and religious books frequently when people hear her story. Is it possible she was a scam artist? The daughter's behavior is especially strange. Do you think the woman was hoping for more (i.e., $$$$) than the help you gave her?

I had considered that. In the end, however, my husband was able to contact the woman's landlord through an internet search for the main after-hours number available to clients of subsidized housing here in the city. He spoke to them and then she spoke to them, asking that a handyman open her door for her if she were to return home without purse and keys (which is eventually what happened).

I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder and all I can say is, if she were faking it, then she deserved to take me for at least a little bit of money for such a fine performance. (The real issue was that neither she nor her daughter were...uh...well, it should suffice to say that neither is very good at problem-solving. )

[doggie]

Burris, what struck me about the story is how kind that you are. You were there for that women at a rough time for her and having someone show concern was probably what she needed most.

I agree very nice and going out of your way.

[Austin]

Burris, what struck me about the story is how kind that you are. You were there for that women at a rough time for her and having someone show concern was probably what she needed most.

I agree. It's not like you threw a Bible at her, yelled, "Jesus loves you" and left her to her own devices at the bus stop. You spent four hours with the woman and brought her into your home, which sounded like it was a little bit. . . awkward. I don't think you can be faulted for pulling every rabbit out your hat to try to provide comfort and reassurance during that time. As long as you didn't press when she let you know she wasn't interested, I wouldn't worry about it.

Heaven only knows what kind of awkward moments I could create if I had to unexpectedly spend four hours with a stranger.

[meda]

First, I have no right to judge your actions, since your behavior go far beyond what I would have done in the situation. My assistance would have ended after the woman was in a safe place and the daughter had been called to pick up her mother. Maybe I would have given the woman money for a cab. The only issue I might take with your introduction of religion to this woman would be the power imbalance of the situation. Even though you showed her great kindness, she probably wanted to get on with her day and was unable to do so because of her daughters thoughtlessness and lack of other options. She was a captive audience (granted you were too, but at least you had the ability to tell her to leave) so for that reason alone, I think it was a little inappropriate.

[Burris]

Well, at least I hope you apologized and withdrew the book, and explained to her in some way why you thought it was such a faux pas. Otherwise, you can't really feel guilty about acting out of your heart.

I did apologize, along with giving an explanation of why the stories helped me, but I didn't withdraw the book. I set it down where she could discreetly take it or leave it when she left. I couldn't imagine withdrawing a gift -- even one that was perhaps ill-considered.

The other resource book I gave her is the secular production of a local non-profit, and lists both secular and religious organizations (with a clear delineation between the two), as well as government agencies that offer help of various sorts. (Her biggest problem, she told me, was food insecurity, so I gave her bus tickets and circled the nearest food bank – since she hadn't drawn from there yet – and suggested she even go so far as to the soup kitchen each night so as to gave one meal a day.)

I guess the heart of my guilt is what Neda mentioned: the power imbalance. I didn't intend to create it, but it was there.

[kb2]

I think a lot of faux-pas are made when people try to "fix" a situation for someone--like all the trite things people say to grieving people. Just saying you're sorry can give comfort, even if you can't share a mantra that will make the situation all right again. Sometimes, it's OK to just let things be bad.

You sound like you are already very good at having a positive impact on someone in a short amount of time. It probably meant a lot to have your help with the emergency food and the bus passes and the purse-finding, and she probably appreciated having someone to talk to on top of that. Even if she left your apartment with the same problems, she'll remember how you helped, and your kindness may have a more lasting impact than you think.

I can imagine there are lots of people who would provide an inspirational/religious book and no practical help like you provided. And honestly, I haven't been that nice to anyone ever. So don't be too hard on yourself, because she may have appreciated your good intentions even if she was uninterested in the book.

[Lainey]

I've been as desperate financially as that woman apparently was, and honestly... we don't want "God loves you," or, "Here, read this; it will comfort you." No, it won't. Your religious observances are *yours,* and they give *you* comfort. For those of us who are non-believers, it sounds trite and forced and empty.

It sounds like this woman had anxiety problems not related to dire financial circumstances, but honestly: when I was in that place, I wanted help and advice on what to *do*. Telling someone where they're hiring might also help if you know (it's actually how I got a job I desperately needed once), and offering resource information like food banks' locations, etc. was right, but the religious proselytizing? No. Not unless she told you she was a believer so that you knew it would comfort her. Otherwise, you're forcing your beliefs on her, which just adds to her burden.

I agree with this. I know you were trying to help, Burris, but as you know, not everyone is a believer. I think you were really nice to help her out, though. I can't see doing it just because you lost your purse (maybe I would; never been there), but I know that when my ex was in the hospital unexpectedly I couldn't remember a damn thing. I couldn't even remember my dad's phone number. So I have some sympathy for her anxiety issues.

I think you did the best you could with what you had. In future, probably do everything the same but the religious books, and you're golden. ;)

[valsa]

I know I'm in the minority but I tend to feel that introducing religion into charity sullies any other good that you've done. Kinda like cooking a big, delicious meal as a gift for someone- then spitting in it at the last moment.

What to do in the future?

Umm... just don't do it. Is it really that hard for you to not mention religion? Funny, I somehow manage to do it almost every single day of my life.

[Conuly]

Well, I'm an atheist. I can promise that under no circumstances when helping somebody would I take the time to pass them some work on the subject by an atheist author.

I mean, how arrogant is that! You have troubles, it must be caused by your religion. Ditching your beliefs is sure to help. (In some circumstances that may very well be the truth, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to say that to anybody, least of all a total stranger!)

The best thing to do is not mention your religion. Give the tangible help you're prepared to offer, and keep your religious advice for the people who ask for it. It's okay to be PREPARED to give advice or books to those who request it, or to wear a cross so people know they can ask about it - but other than that, you're basically chasing people away from Jesus. Nobody, ever, gets a book from somebody apropos of nothing and says "Yes, I should become a Christian, I never thought about that before!"

[AudreyE]

My general rule is that I do not give advice to others unless I have been asked for it, and I consider it very disrespectful when people proselytize to others who are not seeking spiritual guidance. That being said, I don't know many people who would have gone out of their way for a stranger the way you did for this woman. I sure as hell would not have done it. I'm not about to fault you for anything. That woman is very lucky you were there.

[Burris]

I know I'm in the minority but I tend to feel that introducing religion into charity sullies any other good that you've done. Kinda like cooking a big, delicious meal as a gift for someone- then spitting in it at the last moment.

What to do in the future?

Umm... just don't do it. Is it really that hard for you to not mention religion? Funny, I somehow manage to do it almost every single day of my life.

While I do own that giving the book was a mistake, I still disagree with some of what you say here – and that disagreement is about to lead me down a bit of a rabbit trail:

Indeed I can avoid discussions of religion, but I find it hard because I enjoy that part of my life. (Since I believe in Universal Reconciliation, however, I am never on the look-out for "souls to save" and so I'm under no pressure to proselytize.)

When someone tells me something horrendous, however, and it's something I'm in no way prepared to hear, I go to the place where I get comfort and try to gather some for the other person as well.

This is what happened that night. That book was the wrong gift to give - and now, thanks to the posters here, I can more solidly articulate why: The power imbalance, the presumption, and the fact such gifts are a favorite 'stand-in' to a lot of people in place of actually helping out.

In my own life, however, I see religion as a good thing - or, more accurately, I think religion is what one makes of it. So no, I don't think the mere mention of religion, in the context of a gift, is enough to taint it. Motive matters. Presentation matters.

My own view of the Bible –- and this is a book I read every day, which I treat with special care, and where I record scraps of poetry and poignant quotes and important dates in its pages -- is that it's no ordinary book; it's a special kind of mirror where a person can not only look at herself as she is but also construct herself anew over time.

A person can be made better or worse by reading the Bible, depending on how she treats the texts.

Amy Jill Levine, an Orthodox Jewish scholar who focuses on the New Testament because she is interested in that period from a literary perspective -- she was the one who introduced me to the concept that horror and open repudiation are legitimate responses from a believer when encountering the so-called Biblical Texts of Terror.

It's a perfectly respectable and honorable treatment of the whole Bible, as a sacred text, to question some of it and even to condemn such things as rape and genocide (sometimes even using the outcomes as recorded in the Bible as proof cruelty - even as done by people who believed God sanctioned it - can lead to ruin).

I see doing good in service to the deity I worship as an honorable job (hence the desire to enter chaplaincy). My daily activities reflect my beliefs.

I don't do anything with the hope of earning brownie points in the afterlife, in part because there may not be one; but rather because the Golden Rule is a good rule whether God exists or not. It makes the world a better place for other people and for me and those I love most deeply.

So, to circle back, I'll own it was wrong to even offer the religious book to that woman given the circumstances. The people here have helped me to better articulate where I went wrong.

I don't agree with the rest of your argument, though.

Serious question: As far as I know, you're an atheist. If you're the sort who also believes religion is a danger to human progress, and barbaric besides, would a day go by where you wouldn't find occasion to mention it?

[Gizmola]

Burris, I am a lifelong atheist and I disagree with anyone who feels you did anything inappropriate. You not only went out of your way to offer pragmatic advice and assistance, i.e. taking her to your home, giving her the local resource info - but you also offered her something you find personally meaningful as well.

I try to remember, when I've been gifted with Bibles and other religious items, that the people giving it to me really felt they were doing something wonderful, helpful and good. They gave out of compassion or just out of caring about me as a person. What they gave me meant something special to them so I take it in that spirit.

Then, of course, being a heartless heathen, I just throw it away.

:dance:

[bellicosebroad]

Burris, I am a lifelong atheist and I disagree with anyone who feels you did anything inappropriate. You not only went out of your way to offer pragmatic advice and assistance, i.e. taking her to your home, giving her the local resource info - but you also offered her something you find personally meaningful as well.

I try to remember, when I've been gifted with Bibles and other religious items, that the people giving it to me really felt they were doing something wonderful, helpful and good. They gave out of compassion or just out of caring about me as a person. What they gave me meant something special to them so I take it in that spirit.

Then, of course, being a heartless heathen, I just throw it away.

:dance:

:lol:

[jaynie]

The thing is, what you did for the woman in question was extremely generous -- which means that by offering her a religious book, you put her in a position where she had to reject it without potentially offending you and sounding ungrateful. For all she knew you might not want to help someone if they didn't believe in your brand of religion -- you might even consider her evil. I'm sure you actually wouldn't, but there are plenty of people who would. If she was an atheist, it might also have been a reminder that she *doesn't* believe and therefore doesn't have that option for comfort. This article is about comforting grieving atheists, but many of the points are applicable in other situations as well: http://www.alternet.org/belief/152028/m ... age=entire

Personally I find it irritating when people find any excuse to talk to me about religion. I've even been sitting at a bus stop lost in thought and probably looking a little miserable, and then been told that Jesus would solve all of my problems. It makes me want to get in an argument, because I do disagree vehemently, and an argument is the last thing I would need if I was in a bad way.

I do think religion is a net negative, but I don't feel the need to mention the fact to complete strangers if they haven't asked. (Apart from anything else, this if potentially a dangerous thing to do -- there is a fair bit of violence directed against us heathens in some parts of the world). What I would recommend in you circumstance is to let the other person lead -- if they ask for spiritual advice, or what you would turn to for comfort, or why you do what you do, or if they are wearing an obvious symbol of religion perhaps, then you could tell them. If they don't bring it up, remember that they probably already know about religion (especially Christianity) and may not want to have that conversation again (and may have even been hurt by religion in the past).

[Mama Mia]

I wouldn't have taken her to my house -- I probably would have arranged to take her to her own home, or to a restaurant or some other public place -- but the whole situation seems a little scammy/risky to me.

I don't think the religious book was wrong in and of itself, you were in an awkward situation with someone who was clearly anxious. It makes sense you would try to find something helpful to talk about. Someone else might have talked about their hobbies, or made conversation about music or movies or sports. Religion is your interest, so you thought it might be helpful.

I'm glad it turned out well and she got home safely.