What would you have done?

[apple1]

@ Burris-

You did nothing wrong. JMO.

[Deleted03]

I think you were generous and patient - it's sometimes so hard to deal with people who can't find solutions by themselves and obviously only half listen to what you are offering as solutions.

You talked to this woman for 4 hours, she presented her life problems to you and you offered an answer you know. You did not just invited her in your home, called the bus service and then threw the book at her. She may have been uncomfortable and it may have reminded her of other times where the Bible or any other religious text is pushed down on her, but also you're not a counselor, and you can only do what you can from where you are at.

Yes probably better not to bring that up again, but at the same time, factoring how long she stayed around it's only natural that religious beliefs popped up.

[ladypuglover]

I think you were generous and patient - it's sometimes so hard to deal with people who can't find solutions by themselves and obviously only half listen to what you are offering as solutions.

You talked to this woman for 4 hours, she presented her life problems to you and you offered an answer you know. You did not just invited her in your home, called the bus service and then threw the book at her. She may have been uncomfortable and it may have reminded her of other times where the Bible or any other religious text is pushed down on her, but also you're not a counselor, and you can only do what you can from where you are at.

Yes probably better not to bring that up again, but at the same time, factoring how long she stayed around it's only natural that religious beliefs popped up.

I agree that you did everything you could. You didn't force her to take the book nor give it to her first thing with all other help depending on if she became a Christian. You offered her help from many different sources. You did well and no one should judge you for helping the best you could.

[QAF_Rocks]

I consider religion a private matter. I'm a lifelong atheist, but I wouldn't give books about atheism as a gift unless that person had indicated they wanted to to read about it. No one's ever given me a religious book, but if they did, and I hadn't said I was interested, I think I would be somewhat annoyed. I'm sure most people who do this have good intentions, but it's more the principle of the thing.

My training goal is to become a chaplain, as money and time permit. Rather than weighing people down with yet more dogmatic instruction, what can I do to make a positive impact from what are necessarily short encounters with people in distress?

I would just be kind to them. Unless they bring it up first, I wouldn't mention religion. I don't know much about chaplains, but hopefully whatever organization it is only provides chaplains on request, not by default. I can think of few worse things than being in the middle of some distressing situation and having a chaplain foisted upon me.

[valsa]

I go to the place where I get comfort and try to gather some for the other person as well.

The problem is that you're making an assumption about what will comfort people. Do you not acknowledge that some people find no comfort in religion and that some people are actually caused great distress by it? (such as the people recovering from the religious abuses we talk about here)

So no, I don't think the mere mention of religion, in the context of a gift, is enough to taint it. Motive matters. Presentation matters.

The egotistical thoughtlessness required to think you know best about what could bring comfort to someone else also matters.

A person can be made better or worse by reading the Bible, depending on how she treats the texts.

The same could be said about Cosmo or Readers Digest. The Bible is not as special or unique as you think it is.

Amy Jill Levine, an Orthodox Jewish scholar who focuses on the New Testament because she is interested in that period from a literary perspective -- she was the one who introduced me to the concept that horror and open repudiation are legitimate responses from a believer when encountering the so-called Biblical Texts of Terror.

It's a perfectly respectable and honorable treatment of the whole Bible, as a sacred text, to question some of it and even to condemn such things as rape and genocide (sometimes even using the outcomes as recorded in the Bible as proof cruelty - even as done by people who believed God sanctioned it - can lead to ruin).

I don't really see what this has to do with anything. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't find value in religion or the Bible. Only that assuming everyone would or should find as much value in it as you do is pretty damn arrogant.

I don't do anything with the hope of earning brownie points in the afterlife, in part because there may not be one; but rather because the Golden Rule is a good rule whether God exists or not. It makes the world a better place for other people and for me and those I love most deeply.

What part of the Golden Rule involves jumping to the conclusion that someone needs your particular brand of snake oil and then trying to sell it to them?

Serious question: As far as I know, you're an atheist. If you're the sort who also believes religion is a danger to human progress, and barbaric besides, would a day go by where you wouldn't find occasion to mention it?

I think religion, as a whole, tends to do more harm than good. However, it's also a very personal matter and none of my damn business. You might do well to take the same stance.

[JesusFightClub]

Burris, I think you were very kind and helpful to this woman. There is, however, a problem, which Valsa pointed out.

If I invited someone to my house, they would learn in about five seconds I was left wing politically. A big red flag tends to do that, as does our bookshelf (a constant source of fascination for the polis).

But! If you help someone your focus should be on them, not you. If having observed all our shit, that woman asked me for a book or whatever, she'd get it. If she didn't, it's not my place to offer one. It makes the help to a fellow human being look conditional.

[Guest Anonymous]

Burris: I'm inclined to think you went above and beyond in the steps you took to help the woman get safely home - I would not invite someone to my house because I live alone and would feel too vulnerable. Kudos to you for that.

In terms of the Golden Rule - my Golden Rule is: "do unto others as they would be done by - not as you would be done by". So I'd try to be led by them as to what they might find to be helpful and try not to assume they would be helped by the same things that have helped me in the past.

ETA: cross-posted with JFC who said it better and in fewer words. :D

[valsa]

So I'd try to be led by them as to what they might find to be helpful and try not to assume they would be helped by the same things that have helped me in the past.

Exactly this. You and JFC said it far better (and kinder and gentler) than I could.

[wtfrenchtoast]

While I agree that you were incredibly kind and generous when interacting with this woman, I don't see your offering of the book as a good thing at all. I think religion is an intensely personal thing, so much that I don't even like talking to close friends about my atheism. I know that since you're a part of this forum, you understand that not everyone believes as you do, so it confuses me that you would decide to try and comfort her with spiritually themed material. You did have good intentions, but if I had been in the woman's situation, it would be hard for me to see that. I would see it as another occasion where someone is taking advantage of my vulnerability to proselytize, even if it is subtle. Granted, you did provide materials that can actually help her, so that's a plus. If you encounter situations like that in the future, I would focus on giving real help for the problem. Leave religion out of it.

[clarinetpower]

Imagine you came into my home, cold and hungry and bereft, and I had a big chocolate cake sitting on the counter, and I did not offer you any. I gave you a bologna sandwich and a sweater, but that luscious, chocolatey hunk of heaven was sitting there, under glass, and you couldn't have any.

How are we to know who likes cake and who's a diabetic?

Burris, IMO, you offerred the book with a genuine and kind spirit, and it was an OFFER not a proselytization. (Is that a word?) She can say "no, thank you, I'm a diabetic, or I hate chocolate, or I was beat by my stepfather with a layer cake pan." You didn't know. You weren't shoving anything down anyone's throat, and from what you wrote of the encounter, she understood that.

Valsa, you weren't there. Glad you're so offended for this lady who wasn't, but I can pretty much promise that Burris would not offer you cake, pie, ice cream, or even an oreo. She seems pretty good at reading people.

[Conuly]

Religion isn't a chocolate cake. The majority religion (in the US, that's definitely Christianity) is often used to oppress and harass people who aren't members of the majority religion.

[holierthanyou]

Imagine you came into my home, cold and hungry and bereft, and I had a big chocolate cake sitting on the counter, and I did not offer you any. I gave you a bologna sandwich and a sweater, but that luscious, chocolatey hunk of heaven was sitting there, under glass, and you couldn't have any.

How are we to know who likes cake and who's a diabetic?

Burris, IMO, you offerred the book with a genuine and kind spirit, and it was an OFFER not a proselytization. (Is that a word?) She can say "no, thank you, I'm a diabetic, or I hate chocolate, or I was beat by my stepfather with a layer cake pan." You didn't know. You weren't shoving anything down anyone's throat, and from what you wrote of the encounter, she understood that.

Valsa, you weren't there. Glad you're so offended for this lady who wasn't, but I can pretty much promise that Burris would not offer you cake, pie, ice cream, or even an oreo. She seems pretty good at reading people.

In fairness, Burris did ASK for the opinions of FJers, so Valsa was just sharing her opinion as asked. It might have come across a little strong, but as is often pointed out....it IS a snark board.

Edited to change strog to strong

[Guest Anonymous]

And Burris herself described the incident as a 'faux pas', which doesn't sound like it equates to a chocolate lover being offered chocolate.

I also doubt that Burris would withold hospitality from Valsa or any other of us who offered a differing opinion - she does not seem that mean-spirited, clarinetpower.

[AudreyE]

See, again I find it hard to criticize, since your kindness and charity toward this woman were remarkable... but since you asked:

I understand why you wanted to offer the woman something that comforts you, but that is self-centered. I don't mean "selfish"; I mean that you couldn't see the woman for herself, because you were looking at what is meaningful to you. You have no idea what comforts that woman.

We live in America, and pretty much everyone is aware of Jesus and the gospel. You say yourself that this woman has positively had Christianity shoved down her throat. I believe the best way to witness is to witness by how you live. The example of the woman wearing a cross is a good one. That leaves a person free to ask.

EDITED to add: We don't all live in America. LOL! Talk about self-centered. But you can substitute the entire Western world there.

[valsa]

Imagine you came into my home, cold and hungry and bereft, and I had a big chocolate cake sitting on the counter.

I don't think religion can be compared to chocolate cake.

Though I am curious how, in this "chocolate cake" = "religion" analogy, you've come to the conclusion that the woman was "cold and hungry and bereft".

[keeperrox]

Why do I get the feeling that this post was made more for the pats on the back for this amazing selflessness than actual self-awareness of this supposed faux pas?

What would I have done? Made sure the woman was safe, either at a cafe, restaurant, or library, or with a family member, and then go on my merry way. And I would have left religion out of it completely, because as soon as you bring your version of God into things like this, then it no longer is being done because it's the right thing to do, but because you want to gain heaven points.

[Elle]

I guess the heart of my guilt is what Neda mentioned: the power imbalance. I didn't intend to create it, but it was there.

Burris, you recognize that you made an error in judgement, and even without knowing what, you asked for help since something you did wasn't sitting right. Let go of your guilt now. This is now a learning experience. You are receptive to learning. I'm sure that, in the future, you will be careful not to use this side of a power imbalance to get into religion in any way. Power balances aren't always avoidable. It's what you do with them that matters. You learned, and that is good. On top of that, you gave that woman a lot more help than most people would have, and you are a great person for that.

[EmmieJ]

You were very kind to the woman, but I do think it was (to put it kindly) a faux pas to give her a book with religious overtones.

As the years have gone by, I've grown more and more annoyed by being pestered by people who want to tell me about their religious beliefs, in an effort to "save" me. What I want is for those people to keep their beliefs to themselves. As an adult, I'm fully capable of going to a library, bookstore, or church if I want to learn about a specific religion or spiritual idea.

It reminds me of JimBob taking the children to an impoverished country and handing out bibles.

[Burris]

Why do I get the feeling that this post was made more for the pats on the back for this amazing selflessness than actual self-awareness of this supposed faux pas?

Oh no. The cat's out of the bag. You saw right through me. I'm an attention whore, etc.

If you'd met this lady, under those circumstances, you'd likely have done as I did since my place was closer than any cafe. I expected the visit to last half an hour, not four. Same as you would have.

If I were in it for the kudos, I would have put this in "chatter" and neglected to mention the book at all.

[keeperrox]

Oh no. The cat's out of the bag. You saw right through me. I'm an attention whore, etc.

If you'd met this lady, under those circumstances, you'd likely have done as I did since my place was closer than any cafe. I expected the visit to last half an hour, not four. Same as you would have.

If I were in it for the kudos, I would have put this in "chatter" and neglected to mention the book at all.

Well, let's see. You already admitted that you knew you shouldn't have given her the book in your original post, yet you ask what we would do. So if you don't want to hear that you did everything right and are amazingly selfless, what did you want?

[Burris]

Well, let's see. You already admitted that you knew you shouldn't have given her the book in your original post, yet you ask what we would do. So if you don't want to hear that you did everything right and are amazingly selfless, what did you want?

I wanted, quite frankly, to hear what Valsa and others who share her stance would say. Thing is, I'm genuinely committed to this whole chaplaincy business - and not just to help religious types who cross my path, but to effectively advocate for everyone who requires service, without prejudice - and I want to be good at it. Kudos are nice and all, but it's the unvarnished criticism that helps best. (I don't have any illusions about being great. Just as some of the people I've been in cat-fights with here.)

[keeperrox]

I wanted, quite frankly, to hear what Valsa and others who share her stance would say.

You mean to tell us that you couldn't figure out that atheists (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "Valsa and others who share her stance") would find your "gift" of a religious book inappropriate? Come on. You've shown that you're more intelligent than that.

As others have already said in this thread, if you're truly committed to helping people without religious strings attached, then don't bring it up. Ever. If the people you are helping invite you to share your beliefs with them, then that's another story.

[Burris]

You mean to tell us that you couldn't figure out that atheists (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "Valsa and others who share her stance") would find your "gift" of a religious book inappropriate?

Heh....I'll answer that simply by quoting from my original post:

I’m just going to assume most of you think it was wrong of me to give this woman that book. What I would like to know is how to handle the situation in future.

To recap, I opened that part of my post by acknowledging a lot of people would see the gift - oh, and nice use of scare quotes, BTW - as inappropriate.

That's part of the reason why I asked that question here, on a forum where many members are either agnostic or atheist - and where some members are outspoken concerning their view of religion.

My question went a bit deeper than merely, 'Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?'

I got a lot of useful feedback, especially from more outspoken critics, concerning how such an item might be viewed and why; and about where, precisely (and not just generally), I fell into error in this situation. (I don't agree with all the feedback but I do appreciate it.)

I also wanted to know what I might have done instead that would have comforted people in that situation regardless of background. I was hoping for something of a resource list.

As for your own assumption about what motivates me...*shrug*...I'd try to prove you wrong, because I'm ever so eager to please, except I have other business right now: This is the time of week when I post pictures on Facebook of myself doing cartwheels for a cheering crowd.

[valsa]

Thing is, I'm genuinely committed to this whole chaplaincy business - and not just to help religious types who cross my path, but to effectively advocate for everyone who requires service, without prejudice - and I want to be good at it.

Then don't mention God or Jesus -EVER- until they bring it up first. Spirituality =/= religion.

I read the blog of an atheist in the military once. He said you could tell how good the Army chaplain was by how long it took him to mention God or Jesus to you. The ones who mentioned God and/or Jesus all the time? Probably going to be assholes, more concerned with lip service than actually doing anything for you. The ones who never mentioned Jesus or God until you brought it up first? Would probably walk through fire for you.

I think you seriously need to take a hard look at your own biases and pre-conceived notions before you can be a good chaplain (I hope this encounter was a wake up call for you) You saw a woman in distress and defaulted automatically to what brings you comfort, without regard to what might actually comfort her. There have been people here who've told stories about how religion causes them horrible anxiety. How they spent years constantly terrified of being a sinner and going to hell. Did you consider, even for a second, that the woman you were talking to might be caused even more anxiety by religion? Or, because that's not the case for you, did you just dismiss it as a possibility for everyone?

[FlorenceHamilton]

I truly believe that action speak louder than words. That said, I think your actions spoke volumes about your character. As a representative of the Christian faith, you spoke of kindness, patience and charity. I am not certain that a person with limited ability to make judgements would necessarily bring up the topic of religion if it were not the foremost thing on her mind. People with poor judgement such as you describe have limited ability to abstract. Unless she was a religious fanantic in the first place (which she clearly is not), the only way for her to associate Christianity with kindness was for you to bring it to her attention.

Since she has gotten religious literature in the past for being an object of sympathy, it is ashame that you ened up doing that very thing. Now you risk being lumped into this woman's databank as one of a long list of useless things about religion. You had no way to know that. It was a faux pas. No worse than that, I think.

After reading the previous poster's observations, I agree with the one who said that wearing a cross to identify yourself would be sufficient. It leaves the impression that the Christian lady was nice. (Simplified Christian=nice). It gives you an identifier that a person can use to bring up the topic if they desire.

As a Jew who has nearly completed the journey to atheism in the current political climate, I think that take home message that Christians can be nice would do a great deal for Christianity.