gay parents = their children can never feel secure and loved

[Confused_by_religion]

Apparently, I am addicted to pain and therefore read German Catholic fundie blogs. What can I say? They're definitely a never-ending supply of pain. :-/

Anyway, one of these had a long post on a lesbian couple, one of whom got pregnant and now they are raising the baby together. Like, you know, a family.

The Catholic fundie author deplores this because

- the only reason why this baby came into existence was because the parents WANTED IT. (Apparently, this is bad.)

- okay, one mother is the biological mother, but the other one HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE CHILD. (Apart from raising it and doing 24/7 nappy changing and burping duty. Which counts for nothing compared to, you know, the sacred biological bond.)

- the child will never be able to feel secure and confident because its existence is based on the relationship of the parents. When this relationship goes bust, he or she will question his or her right to exist. (?)

I am actually willing to respect arguments along the line "it's easier for kids to have both a father and mother" because I know how my kid struggled with having a father who did not care for him at all...but...this...leaves me aghast.

I've been trying to point out where the reasoning does not work but it's as if I spoke Martian and the guy spoke, er, Catholic Fundie.

Dear Freejingers, can you recommend links to relevant studies about how children growing up in same-sex households do compared to children raised by heterosexual couples (the classic combo)?

Or at least tell me to stop reading Catholic fundie blogs?

Thank you so much! :)

[Hane]

Aw, just stop reading the Catholic fundie blogs.

All I have is anecdotal evidence: the frighteningly adorable lesbian couple at my church, who live in a frighteningly adorable little house with their frighteningly adorable and well-loved two-year-old twins. I can't imagine this little family doing anything but well.

[2xx1xy1JD]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12361102

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 80,00.html

Keep in mind that comparing planned sex-same families to heterosexual families involves a comparison of not just same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents, but also of planned vs. unintended conception. Since a same-sex couple is less likely to conceive by accident, the resulting children are more likely to be born to a family that actively planned for them, that felt that the relationship was ready for a baby, that felt that they were mature enough for a baby, that had the resources to care for a baby and that viewed the arrival of the baby as a positive event.

BTW, how would these Catholic fundies feel about step-parent adoption, where a single mother or widow gets married to someone who is willing to adopt their child?

[Elle]

Even Faux News doesn't deny it:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594090,00.html

More:

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2010/06/0 ... etter-off/

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-07/heal ... =PM:HEALTH

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 80,00.html

[valsa]

I am actually willing to respect arguments along the line "it's easier for kids to have both a father and mother" because I know how my kid struggled with having a father who did not care for him at all...but...this...leaves me aghast.

I don't. Having both a mother and a father is not necessary for a child. Having parents who love them, and both positive male and female role models is what's important. Your son struggled with having a parent who didn't care about him, which has nothing to do with what gender that parent was. Any child, whether they have a mother and father, two mothers, or two fathers would have struggled for the same reason. On the other hand, any child who is loved by all their parents (whether that number is one, two, three, or seventeen), whether those parents are all female, all male, or a mix, will not have the same struggles.

[emmiedahl]

The issues that children of gay families face have everything to do with society and nothing to do with their parents. We need to make our culture secure and loving for the children.

[ophelia]

Could you post some links? Never read German fundie blogs before?

[Confused_by_religion]

Could you post some links? Never read German fundie blogs before?

Have fun!

http://ecce-sponsus-venitDOTblogspot.com/

http://echoromeoDOTblogspot.com/

http://blogDOTderherralipius.com/

I hope I broke the link the way it should be done.

[Sydney Fox]

My niece and nephews have 3 moms and a dad. They're doing just fine thank you, and are secure and well loved. IMHO, as long as there is love and acceptance, it doesn't matter what form a family takes.

[mschelseae]

well, I can give first hand experience stories. My mom had me with my father (who happens to live in Germany, and was not really a big part of my life, nor did he want to be until I graduated High School. Figures, my Dad the biggest man-child that ever existed couldn't bond with his firstborn until she was all grown up) ANYWAY, my mom got involved with her then-partner when I was just turning 6. Her partner has been in my life for more years than she hasn't been. They're not together anymore, because both have found God. They still have a deep connection but, its not a passionate/sexual love anymore. I respect that because they didn't come to that decision based on 'Gays are a sin omgomgomg' its just a personal thing

[Confused_by_religion]

BTW, how would these Catholic fundies feel about step-parent adoption, where a single mother or widow gets married to someone who is willing to adopt their child?

Tricky question. According to this blog, adoption per se is okay, because then, the child wasn't specially created on account of the parents' wish to have a child* but the adoptive parents chose to be there for an child that is already in existence. Single-parent adoption - could go either way. A child in need is taken in, that should make it okay. A child in need is taken in, but by a single woman, hence an incomplete family - probably bad.

Thank you for the links to the studies! Very helpful! :-)

* I think that's the heart of the faulty reasoning - that children are automatically born to heterosexual couples, whether they want a child or not. I once did research on the situation of born out of wedlock unplanned children in the early 20th century - they had such a hard time of it (less food, less schooling, less medical attention, more sickness etc. etc.) that I'm definitely in favour of "every child a wanted child".

[2xx1xy1JD]

The part about a child never feeling secure because its existence is based on the parents' relationship makes absolutely no sense. I can't even grasp any logical argument here to even begin to counter it.

Aren't most children's existence based upon the parents' relationship? As in "I'm here because my parents had sex"? Kids do feel genuine loss and insecurity when their parents' relationships break down, but that has nothing to do with being gay or straight. If anything, children whose parents used ART know that they weren't a byproduct of two people being horny, but that their parents actively wanted them.

[Iamthatbean]

I don't. Having both a mother and a father is not necessary for a child. Having parents who love them, and both positive male and female role models is what's important. Your son struggled with having a parent who didn't care about him, which has nothing to do with what gender that parent was. Any child, whether they have a mother and father, two mothers, or two fathers would have struggled for the same reason. On the other hand, any child who is loved by all their parents (whether that number is one, two, three, or seventeen), whether those parents are all female, all male, or a mix, will not have the same struggles.

To the same extent, my wife is more of a father figure to our kids than their "dad" who walks in and out of their life at will. It really upset me that my daughter's school tried to exclude her from an event because she didn't have a dad willing to go with her. Eventually, my father-in-law took her and it was absolutely adorable but they would not bend on the need for her escort to be *male*

[BlackHawk]

To the same extent, my wife is more of a father figure to our kids than their "dad" who walks in and out of their life at will. It really upset me that my daughter's school tried to exclude her from an event because she didn't have a dad willing to go with her. Eventually, my father-in-law took her and it was absolutely adorable but they would not bend on the need for her escort to be *male*

To be honest this is where I have my greatest fears with raising a child. IF the school, or an activity they are involved in, does a child/mother dance or event... Most places won't bend. But I also know my children will have plenty of female influence in their lives because of my awesome best friend. I know she will fill that void because she can, and she is downright awesome! Hopefully the partner's sister will also step in to a female role for our kids.. and possibly my MIL (who is awesome.. I can't say that enough!).

That said, children should not depend solely on their mother and father for security and support. Shit happens, and helping your child feel safe and secure with those close to you could end up being a necessary thing. I would hope that as my children grow, they learn to trust and feel secure with those we feel that with. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I know I grew up with a mother and father and I still struggle with feeling secure at times in my life. It's reality.

[bubbabearzle]

I guess I need to notify my (very well adjusted) nephew that he needs to start feeling insecure pronto!

[Elle]

I don't. Having both a mother and a father is not necessary for a child. Having parents who love them, and both positive male and female role models is what's important. Your son struggled with having a parent who didn't care about him, which has nothing to do with what gender that parent was. Any child, whether they have a mother and father, two mothers, or two fathers would have struggled for the same reason. On the other hand, any child who is loved by all their parents (whether that number is one, two, three, or seventeen), whether those parents are all female, all male, or a mix, will not have the same struggles.

Right. Children of sperm donors (like sperm banks, not a kid whose dad bailed when he's a toddler) don't feel their biological fathers didn't care. It's not like having a child and then leaving. A lot has to do with WHY a biological parent isn't there, and when the biological parent stepped out (if stepping out happened at all, or was because of donation or death).

[Elle]

Watch this video:

That young man is 19, and was raised by lesbians. His speaking ability is chillingly wonderful, and his message is incredible. Smuggar could learn a thing or two about how to do public speaking.

This video needs to be seen. It's exactly about this topic. 99th percentile in the ACT, Eagle Scout, owns and operates his own small people, while going to a University. Strong speaking skills, a wonderful head on his shoulders, with passion and heart, and really drives the point home. Each time I watch this video, I get chills. :)

[Iamthatbean]

Watch this video:

That young man is 19, and was raised by lesbians. His speaking ability is chillingly wonderful, and his message is incredible. Smuggar could learn a thing or two about how to do public speaking.

This video needs to be seen. It's exactly about this topic. 99th percentile in the ACT, Eagle Scout, owns and operates his own small people, while going to a University. Strong speaking skills, a wonderful head on his shoulders, with passion and heart, and really drives the point home. Each time I watch this video, I get chills. :)

He owns small people? LOL I get what you mean...just got a funny head picture

[QAF_Rocks]

Someone's already given you a link to the APA, which has the largest collection of information, but you might also want to check out the National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: http://www.nllfs.org

Speaking from personal experience, it always puzzles me why right-wing religious and social conservatives like to pretend that same-sex parenting is a new thing. Lesbians have been having babies from donor sperm for a long time! My brother and I were conceived via insemination and raised by our two moms, and we were born in the late 1970s. The "gayby boom" has been going strong for well over a generation now, and there's no need for such ridiculous hand-wringing.

The Catholic fundie author deplores this because

- the only reason why this baby came into existence was because the parents WANTED IT. (Apparently, this is bad.)

- okay, one mother is the biological mother, but the other one HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE CHILD. (Apart from raising it and doing 24/7 nappy changing and burping duty. Which counts for nothing compared to, you know, the sacred biological bond.)

- the child will never be able to feel secure and confident because its existence is based on the relationship of the parents. When this relationship goes bust, he or she will question his or her right to exist. (?)

That last one makes no sense. Well, all of them make no sense, but particularly the last one. I don't see how the child's existence is based on the relationship between the parents. The author seems to be imagining that the biological mother is "allowing" the non-biological mother her role, and if they break up, then the non-bio mom will cease to be a parent. Which is most certainly not the case. Parents don't stop being parents just because their romantic relationship ends. It has nothing to do with whether the children are biological or adopted.

[AnnieC 305]

How about this:

http://docsdomain.net/blog/

Meet Doc, a gay, liberal, homeschooling mother of four who did raise her children all by herself.

And now she has four awesome ADULT children, so we can see how they turned out.

(Not breaking the link. I doubt she would mind.)

[AudreyE]

More anecdotal:

I donated my eggs to a lesbian couple (who were both somewhat ironically unable to conceive). They had three children with those embryos. I couldn't have asked for a more wonderful home for my DNA. They are happy. healthy, creative and well-adjusted kids.

[itsnikki05]

Heh. It's sad that people feel that way.

Because I was raised in a family where quite frankly I knew I was not wanted. I barely have a relationship with my mother now. She has a grandaughter that she can't be bothered to be around. We live one hour away, not too long for my elderly grandparents to come visit yet too long for my 40 something momma to visit? Riiiiiiiight. Oh, and she was 17 when she had me and then got married to my 19 year old father, had my brother almost 2 years after me. He abused her and they divorced.

Oh, but that's just a LOT better than being raised by two loving, happy parents that just so happen to be of the same sex. Right. (I'm Christian, but not narrowminded. Homosexuality is not something I would choose for myself, but I love people regardless of their sexuality. KWIM?)

[Three and Done]

Their line of bs is quite ridiculous. I have known a number of female couples who have amazingly bright, well-adjusted children. Hell, their situation is better than my daughters' is - their "father" has little to do with them (other than paying his court ordered child support).

[JesusFightClub]

Again, anecdata. But....

My small relatives had a mum and a dad. Their mum died. They are being raised by their single father.

How would that be OK to fundies but a stable relationship of two men or two women would not be? If they are concerned about the lack of other sex influence?

I am very curious about this question.

[QAF_Rocks]

My small relatives had a mum and a dad. Their mum died. They are being raised by their single father.

How would that be OK to fundies but a stable relationship of two men or two women would not be? If they are concerned about the lack of other sex influence?

I am very curious about this question.

I've been debating this issue online for years, and basically right-wing social conservatives always trot out the "intentional" card. They would say that your young relatives' situation can't be helped, but that it's wrong to intentionally create a family without a mother or father. They proclaim married heterosexual parents raising their biological children to be the "gold standard" and anything that deviates from that, even slightly, isn't giving children the "ideal" or "optimal" family circumstance.

Seriously, I've heard those words used more than any other. They like to use "ideal" and "optimal" because it's nicer than saying what they really mean: that families who don't adhere to this model are inferior and/or defective in some way.