Chances of a Big Family

[ilovetchotchkes]

It's an interesting question. Did women in the 'old days' generally practice extended breastfeeding? I know it's not a foolproof guarantee of avoiding another pregnancy, but at least it prevents for some women. These QF types who don't, in fact, leave it up to God don't seem likely to breastfeed as long, so that they can pop out the next blessing.

I would like a larger family myself (though small by QF standards) but there is no way I'd want to get pregnant within a year after having a baby. I'm going through my second pregnancy now and was pregnant again three months after a miscarriage -- even that seems to take a bit more of a toll on my body than my first pregnancy did. It seems to me that getting pregnant again soon after another full-term pregnancy would be exhausting to one's body, but if you're in a competitive mode to have as many kids as possible during your fertile years, maybe it seems worth it.

I think prior to the 1940's it was around 2 or 2 1/2.

My fertility returned at about a year and 1/2. as that's when I intentionally got pregnant again. (we were trying prior to that, using the same methods as NFP, even though we're not Catholic- temps and mucus and I wasn't ovulating). Louis XVI went to 2 years w/ his wet nurses. lactationconsultant.info/history.html Some women dont' get their fertility back until 2-3 years!

I"m sure my ancestors were breastfeeding as formula was not invented, and my great great grandmother had 8 kids all about a year and 1/2 apart.

[Elle]

I'll bet a lot of fundy parents are just too tired after running around after their own kids all day. Not everyone is like the Duggars, leaving their kids to raise each other from young ages so that they have plenty of time to get their groove on.

[Deleted07]

My parents both in their 60's only had 4 kids, my Mother was never on birth control.

Her Mother only had 3 children they were Catholic, my Dad's Mother again Catholic only had two sons.

and now my sister, also Catholic and not on birth control only has two.

So by all means no birth control doesn't neccesarily mean a heap of kids, every woman is different etc. I would assume genetics have something to do with it? Not sure if that's proven but its clear there's some form of pattern at least in my family that for 3 generations of no birth control only a few kids have resulted.

[bananacat]

Honestly, I don't believe for a second that the Duggars or the Bateses left their family size up to God/chance/whatever. They used reverse rhythm method to have as many as possible. I think for most couples, if they just had sex whenever they felt like it without bothering to check ovulation, they would end up with about 5 to 10 kids. Also, some of these mothers probably breastfeed for as long as possible to suppress ovulation. Breastfeeding doesn't always suppress it completely and some women just get pregnant anyway. There is some controversy over whether Michelle Duggar intentionally weans to get preggo earlier of if she is just super-fertile. She allegedly admitted to weaning early but has also claimed that she just get pregnant without weaning.

[Guest Anonymous]

Isn't every pregnancy risking an (necessary) emergency hysterectomy afterwards? Something people shooting for ginormous families seem to forget.

Yes! My sister and my nephew nearly died! When she was 34 weeks pregnant, she starting hemorrhaging in the middle of the night. By the time she reached the hospital she was semi-unconscious and no fetal heartbeat was detected. She had a stat c-section. The NICU team managed to resuscitate my nephew, but it was touch and go for a while. He's now a healthy 11 year old. My sister however, continued to bleed out and required an emergency hysterectomy to save her life. She and my brother-in-law aren't even fundie or fundie-lite. They originally wanted 2 kids, but OOPS! She got pregnant with my nephew. Her pregnancy was pretty much uneventful too. She had good medical care & had regular OB appointments. There was no sign that anything was wrong, until she woke up bleeding heavily.

[Rosa]

The other thing is, I bet most ATI families converted, they didn't all start out ATI. So they could have used birth control early on, and converted late enough there wasn't time for that many more babies.

[AudreyE]

I didn't think the OP sounded insensitive. I understand what you're getting at. Yes, the likelihood varies significantly among women, which is why we shouldn't be forced to take the chance. My husband and I can't afford one single solitary additional child.

All I know is I am getting tired of hearing people talking about birth control as if it all boils down to unwed skanks keeping their legs closed. It's a pretty important part of my life as a married woman. People are trying to obscure the very obvious point you are making: i.e. even married women use birth control, because very few families can handle the risk of having a big brood. We all know that Jebus loves Him some married, holy sex, so the fundies can't complain about that.

Of course, I have no beef whatsoever with unwed skanks...

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's an interesting question. Did women in the 'old days' generally practice extended breastfeeding? I know it's not a foolproof guarantee of avoiding another pregnancy, but at least it prevents for some women. These QF types who don't, in fact, leave it up to God don't seem likely to breastfeed as long, so that they can pop out the next blessing.

I would like a larger family myself (though small by QF standards) but there is no way I'd want to get pregnant within a year after having a baby. I'm going through my second pregnancy now and was pregnant again three months after a miscarriage -- even that seems to take a bit more of a toll on my body than my first pregnancy did. It seems to me that getting pregnant again soon after another full-term pregnancy would be exhausting to one's body, but if you're in a competitive mode to have as many kids as possible during your fertile years, maybe it seems worth it.

My hubby's late grandmother, who had 11 living children, told me that extended breastfeeding for 2 years was the norm in Iraq. Yes, 11 kids is a lot, but it's smaller than the Duggar brood and she started in her teens.

Even without using birth control, I wouldn't have been able to achieve Duggar-like fertility. From the time that I stopped using birth control in June, 1998 until my last child was born in July, 2004, I had 3 living babies and 3 miscarriages.

[polabear]

You also have to factor in male fertility. Add in sexual dysfunction/low sex drive, and you could drive down the likelihood of conceiving a far bit.

[FarmWife]

We use only NFP and practice ecological breastfeeding with great success. Our 4 kids are spaced 2 yrs, 3.5 yrs, and 3 yrs apart. It took us 8 months of active trying to conceive our 3rd child, so it's not like no birth control = eighty zillion kids, each 15 months apart.

I think there's a huge difference between breastfeeding on-cue for an extended period (as nature intended) because it's best for the child, and doing what J'chelle does, which is rigid, scheduled short-term breastfeeding. Sheila Kippley's book, Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing, is very accurate, and says that if a child goes more than 4-5 hours without nursing (including overnight), or a child is taking any nutrition somewhere besides the breast, the mom's fertility can return. Cosleeping delays fertility by increasing night feedings.

The Duggars and other fundies schedule their babies feeding as a first step in "child-training", but I think also as an attempt to facillitate the return of ovulate again, so they can keep cranking out the babies. It's not just Christian fundies, too. Our neighbors years ago were ultra-orthodox Jews, and she said breastfeeding was discouraged because it meant delayed fertility and fewer babies. Breastfeeding doesn't match the fundie ideal of "militant fecundity".

[2xx1xy1JD]

Do you know what branch of ultra-orthodox Jews? My experience is that breastfeeding is very much encouraged. There are traditional texts (the Talmud) that specifically mention breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and even permitting birth control in order to prevent premature weaning due to subsequent pregnancy.

Of course, if someone was desperate to get pregnant, they would likely wean.

[Deleted03]

Just because you can conceive easily one time doesn't mean you will always conceive easily.

My Mom is a middle child in a family of 6. My Grandmother, being a good Catholic, did not believe in birth control. Her child-bearing years ranged from 1944 to 1959. Yet, they only had 6 (all single births). Numbers 3, 4 and 5 were all born in a 3.5 year period. There's 5 years between numbers 2 and 3, and 4 years between numbers 5 and 6. No reason other than she just didn't get pregnant. They would have happily had 10 kids, but it just didn't happen.

yeah but catholics can abstain from sex if they don't want additional children... which QF can't do... (in theory)

[FarmWife]

Do you know what branch of ultra-orthodox Jews? My experience is that breastfeeding is very much encouraged. There are traditional texts (the Talmud) that specifically mention breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and even permitting birth control in order to prevent premature weaning due to subsequent pregnancy.

Of course, if someone was desperate to get pregnant, they would likely wean.

I'm not sure which branch. Perhaps I should clarify and say for this particular family, since that's all I had experience with. They were in the apartment building next to ours, and she saw me nursing my oldest, who was 9 or 10 months at the time, and said she was surprised I was still breastfeeding and said that breastfeeding past 6 months was discouraged because it spaced out children too far. At the time, she had 4 kids, all under 6, so I imagine she followed that line of thinking herself, but you're right, she may have weaned as a result of getting pregnant.

I've known other Orthodox Jewish women who breastfed much longer, and I know that breastfeeding is encouraged in the Jewish Tradition, and didn't mean to imply it was true for all Jewish women, or even all Orthodox women...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Do you know what branch of ultra-orthodox Jews? My experience is that breastfeeding is very much encouraged. There are traditional texts (the Talmud) that specifically mention breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and even permitting birth control in order to prevent premature weaning due to subsequent pregnancy.

Of course, if someone was desperate to get pregnant, they would likely wean.

In fact I read some discussion lately on a Jewish board (can't recall exactly what board it was on) about birth control where it was said that one of the reasonings sometimes given for a woman to be allowed to use birth control is that in scriptures there is some talk about this exact issue - breastfeeding for 2 years naturally suppressing further pregnancies during that time.

So there is an argument that if a woman needs birth control (to manage family size, stress, etc) then using it for up to two years might not necessarily be against God's will, because when his intent was written down, he was thinking "normal" involved this breastfeeding period and no new babies during it.

It's only one issue in any particular case surely, but I found the reasoning interesting.

...but just from reading around I think there's some people in the Orthodox communit(ies) who just want a passel of kids because they want a passel of kids, as an additional factor beyond the usual "be fruitful and multiply" thing - some people just want huge families for whatever local social reasons.

[emmiedahl]

I have always heard that 2 years breastfeeding was the ideal among traditional Jews. I breastfeed full-time the first year and then at naptime/bedtime for another year. This seems normal in my very small Jewish community.

Breastfeeding has never delayed my cycles. I get my first period about a month after the postpartum bleeding stops, despite co-sleeping, feeding on demand, etc. So if God meant for it to be birth control, He forgot to forward that memo to my ovaries. :lol:

[ellerigby]

Yes! My sister and my nephew nearly died! When she was 34 weeks pregnant, she starting hemorrhaging in the middle of the night. By the time she reached the hospital she was semi-unconscious and no fetal heartbeat was detected. She had a stat c-section. The NICU team managed to resuscitate my nephew, but it was touch and go for a while. He's now a healthy 11 year old. My sister however, continued to bleed out and required an emergency hysterectomy to save her life. She and my brother-in-law aren't even fundie or fundie-lite. They originally wanted 2 kids, but OOPS! She got pregnant with my nephew. Her pregnancy was pretty much uneventful too. She had good medical care & had regular OB appointments. There was no sign that anything was wrong, until she woke up bleeding heavily.

Not to go too OT, but that is terrifying. I'm glad to hear your sister and nephew lived through that horror story and are now doing well.

As for the OP, different people are different. I'm sure some planning is involved with certain couples (whether planning for more children... *cough* Duggars/Bates *cough* ...or fewer), but a lot of the discrepancies in QF broods can totally be attributed to individual couples' fertility.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have always heard that 2 years breastfeeding was the ideal among traditional Jews. I breastfeed full-time the first year and then at naptime/bedtime for another year. This seems normal in my very small Jewish community.

Breastfeeding has never delayed my cycles. I get my first period about a month after the postpartum bleeding stops, despite co-sleeping, feeding on demand, etc. So if God meant for it to be birth control, He forgot to forward that memo to my ovaries. :lol:

So without surgical intervention, you'd basically have a Duggar-size family!

As my OB told me - breastfeeding for birth control works on a population level (meaning that breastfeeding will increase spacing in the overall population), but can't be considered reliable on an individual level. It always took me at least a year for fertility to return when I was breastfeeding, but I'm a not-that-fertile myrtle.

[samithemage]

A family that I used to nanny for was Orthodox Jewish. When I was nannying for them, they had 4 kids 5 and under. The mom tried breastfeeding as long as possible, but her kids where just bad eaters in general. She eventually had to have social services come in to help give her resources to help her 18 month old eat solids. The baby that I was mostly in charge of would not drink from a bottle if you so much as made eye contact with him, and had similar problems when breast feeding. If anyone was paying attention to him, he was more interested in "flirting" then eating. She had her fifth about a year ago. In general, her kids have been terrible eaters, whether breast feeding or bottle feeding. Her cycles come back quickly, and while she is very well educated (she holds a master's degree), she seems destined to have many children because of her religious beliefs and genetic predispositions.

[3 is enough]

Gothard encourages women to wean their babies at 6 months so that they can conceive again.

I agree with bananacat, the Duggars and Bateses are not letting God decide, they are actively pursuing pregnancies.

My grandparents were devout Catholics, and never used birth control. My mother was born 2 years after they married, and is an only child. My grandmother miscarried a baby boy when my mother was 9, but never had another pregnancy.