Chances of a Big Family

[Fundilicious]

So I've been a bit stalkery today and have been looking at ATI in more detail, etc. That coupled with the speculation of Anna being pregnant with #3 got me thinking about the chances of actually having a large family if you didn't use birth control and "left it up to God" to control your family.

I have no one to compare myself to, but both my children were conceived the first try. I would assume that if I just left it up to God, I would be looking at a very large brood 20 years from now (I would be 45).

So then while on the ATI site, I came across their page on their Family Support Link (ati.iblp,org/ati/supportlink/ministryfamilies/) in which you can get in contact with other ATI families for support. I noticed that several of the families listed had rather small families (5 or less children). Some of the families I would assume the mom might be able to have more children in the future, but most looked to be out of their child bearing years based off of their youngest child's age and the gap that would be between children.

So I'm curious, do you think most women aren't super fertile (a la Mrs. Duggar) or is it quite possible that these ATI families were shamefully not leaving their reproduction truly to the lord?

[alysee]

You do raise a good question. I am just guessing they are probably not "submitting" to their husband as often as most. Or so tired she actually said no to his advances from the children that they do have.

[fluttershies]

There's a difference between people who leave their family size up to God, and those who aim purposely for a big brood. We all know that infertility exists, and presumably some Quiverfull families are actually infertile. There are also varying degrees of infertility - not everyone has Duggar fertility. It's quite possible to not use contraception and still not have a huge family, especially if the couple doesn't know about menstrual cycles etc and don't have sex at the woman's most fertile time.

There's a reason that most couples trying for a baby don't succeed first time around - you were very lucky, OP.

[Visionoyahweh]

Isn't every pregnancy risking an (necessary) emergency hysterectomy afterwards? Something people shooting for ginormous families seem to forget.

[Cerysbell]

I don't know, but I sometimes wonder whether there's an underground network of NFP knowledge amongst of fundy women. It may not be super reliable, but better than nothing.

[Deleted03]

well that and some women are more sensitive to breastfeeding that suppress their cycles. In theory I think it's 90% of couples (or 95%) will conceive within a 2 years period, so some are more fertile than others. If they are not well nourished they could have less children. They could be miscarrying a lot too. (in that case Michelle has been very lucky, with that amount of children statistically she should have had 4 miscarriages (noticeable)).

Look at the Maxwells!

[fluttershies]

I don't know, but I sometimes wonder whether there's an underground network of NFP knowledge amongst of fundy women. It may not be super reliable, but better than nothing.

NFP can be very effective if done right....but then I doubt they're measuring core temperature, cervical mucus etc. I think you're probably right - look how Michelle Duggar was charting her cycles. Certainly amongst the crunchier homebirth fundies (who have more awareness of their own reproductive systems), I bet they could quite easily do NFP under their husbands' noses.

[fluttershies]

I do sometimes wonder if Michelle or another QF woman in the spotlight wouldn't do the reverse though, and have a surrogate and a fake bump to keep up appearances.

[Witsec7]

I don't know, but I sometimes wonder whether there's an underground network of NFP knowledge amongst of fundy women. It may not be super reliable, but better than nothing.

I think checking cervical mucous is just too icky for most QF moms, after all you do have to check yourself 'down there'.

[fluttershies]

I think checking cervical mucous is just too icky for most QF moms, after all you do have to check yourself 'down there'.

You'd be surprised at how many very non-QF, non-fundie or even non-religious women have problems touching their genitals unless they're having sex. There's a reason mooncups aren't as popular as pads!

[Jessica]

Peoples' bodies all work differently. I've known people who wanted a large family and did everything they could to have lots of kids but ended up with an only child. I've known others who were on birth control and conceived their 3rd, 4th, and 5th children by accident. There are people like my sister who do everything "wrong" (according to all the "Tips for Trying to Conceive" websites) and manage to get pregnant 6 or 7 times, and then people like me who were able to conceive easily once but then have trouble conceiving again despite doing everyting the "right way" (again, according to the fertility websites). Sometimes there just ain't nuttin' you can do.

[valsa]

Some of them might also not be able to chart their cycles due to it being irregular.

[fluttershies]

Some of them might also not be able to chart their cycles due to it being irregular.

There may well be issues like PCOS/endometriosis etc too.

[keen23]

Just because you can conceive easily one time doesn't mean you will always conceive easily.

My Mom is a middle child in a family of 6. My Grandmother, being a good Catholic, did not believe in birth control. Her child-bearing years ranged from 1944 to 1959. Yet, they only had 6 (all single births). Numbers 3, 4 and 5 were all born in a 3.5 year period. There's 5 years between numbers 2 and 3, and 4 years between numbers 5 and 6. No reason other than she just didn't get pregnant. They would have happily had 10 kids, but it just didn't happen.

[snickerz]

From doing genealogy, I think the average woman used to have approximately 7-8 kids. There were families with more or less, but that's about average. My own mother had 7 (no bc). MIL had 8 (no bc - 1 died). Grandparents had 8 & 9 (1 of each died).

However, throughout history these women were nursing their babies which in MOST women helped space the children (of course there are exceptions). Also, there was no knowledge of a woman's "fertile time" and people were not in a contest to have the most. Life was also hard and they were probably too tired to "do the deed" every single day.

Now, though, in the quiverful movement it IS a contest to have a bunch so they stack the deck and increase the odds of having more, and having them closer. They can bottlefeed and take supplements to encourage fertility to return right away after having a baby. Women know how to tell their fertile time so they can make sure to do the deed at that time. They don't believe in ever saying no, so they're having sex every day no matter what. Improved medical care is saving pregnancies that would have been lost (hello Josie and Bates kids). In the old days one difficult pregnancy and you would be done (John & Jana were a C-section) whereas now they just keep chugging them out. Plus a lot of moms died in childbirth, but it's rare now. So a lot of factors have led to these "supersized families." God never intended it.

[Mattie Chatham]

A lot of the QF moms I knew growing up were using NFP. I'd see the thermometer on the bedside table, and hear them talking about how they were going to nurse as long as they could to space their babies.

[Witsec7]

They don't believe in ever saying no, so they're having sex every day no matter what.

I would add that when they are done they put a pillow under their hips and don't get out of bed for 3 hours.

[Fundilicious]

I wanted to pop back in really quick to say that I really should have maybe worded my original post better. I truly hope my sharing my fertility does not offend anyone. I realize that what I said could offend others.

While I believe everyone who has responded understood the point I was trying to get across I just want to clarify I only made the point on conceiving because it appears that so many ATI families strive to have Mega Families and based off of the blogs we read, it appears most do have close to double digit families. So I just found it odd that many had a small number of children (though ATI pushes a no birth control policy).

But I'm really sorry if my OP comes of insensitive, next time I promise to word and articulate my posts a bit better.

[silverspoons]

My MIL did not use birth control and wanted as many kid as she could have(she was not quiverful but her reasons sound simliar). She got married at 18 and had 13 kids (12 pregnancies, 1 stillborn 1 child died as a toddler) and had her hysterectomy at 45. She breastfeed for 12 months. She had her kids almost like clockwork 2 years apart. In fact 7 kids are born in the same week.

There are so many factors. What if a spouse travels for work? How important one makes "trying" to have kids. I know there were plenty of nights when I was fertile my husband and I were so exhustaed from our busy days we choose sleep. I think fertility has too many varibles but I do think these women having mega families are actively trying during every fertile time.

[SpeakNow]

Also, not everyone is super fertile. Women in my family tend to have overactive immune systems. As such, we rarely get sick (nice perk!), but it leads to miscarriage as the body views the fetus as a foreign object that needs to be eliminated. If any ATI/Funide women have that issue, it will seriously limit family size.

[Cassia]

My family's story of a big family:

My grandmother was 16 when she married a 32 year old fisherman. He spent ~6 months of every year up in the Arctic fishing, so he was away from home a lot. She was a good little Catholic and was never on birth control in her life. My mom was the oldest child in a family of 11; there was a 12th baby that was still born, and a few miscarriages in between all the births (IIRC 2 or 3 in total). After the 12th, my grandmother was then told by the doctor that another pregnancy would likely kill her. She spoke with her RC priest, who told her to get the surgery that would save her life so that she could be around to raise her 11 children (progressive priest for the time!). My grandmother was devastated by this news, both from the doctor and the priest, but took their advice and went on to have a hysterectomy after the 12th child. She never wanted to stop having babies though, and regrets the decision although it saved her life.

My mom was the eldest, born in 1953 and there was a natural 3 year gap between her and the second. All of the other children were born between 1956 and 1969, 10 kids in 13 years, plus the stillborn baby in 1970 or 71.

[MarciaBrady]

I read somewhere that women who don't use birth control have, on average, 9 children. But I cannot remember where I read that.

If that statistic is correct then I think it makes sense that there are those in the ATI circles who have much smaller families than what we've seen with the Duggars, the Bates, and a lot of the blogs we follow.

Of course, as was stated earlier, some of the ATI followers don't truly leave it up to God, they are actively trying to get pregnant as often as possible, and I'm not convinced they would have ended up with 20 kids if they were truly letting God determine their family size.

[candycanehead]

i think that most of these people have to be trying, at least a little..i have 7 and i have been married almost 20 years, and i dont use birth control.

i will say though that at least in our situation, the number of children dwindled as our circumstances became more ideal, as in..we had more hobbies!!

:dance: we didnt have any of these fancy video games/digital cameras/internet when we first got married.

i will say that i do use birth control now, since we had our last..he is disabled and that thoroughly freaked me the hell out enough to decide that maybe it was time to close up shop. :whistle:

[slp]

We have six, we've never 'planned' any of them or 'tried' to have them or not have them. They're all about 2. 5 yrs apart, except the last two which were 23 months. My last one is nearly 3 years old and I'm not pregnant yet. I'm 33. I have no medical problems that I know of.

I do nurse my babies for nearly 2 years. I've gotten pregnant 3 times while nursing, but not until the baby was over a year and sleeping through the night (I don't get my cycle back til they are sleeping through the night)

We'd love to have a couple more, but we've had no medical problems at all during pregnancy and all my babies have been healthy and my deliveries relatively easy. So we really do just 'leave it up to God' I guess you could say, but most QF people wouldn't consider us QF b/c we are not willing to say there is not a circumstance in which we would 'close up shop' as you all say.

slp

[Olivia]

It's an interesting question. Did women in the 'old days' generally practice extended breastfeeding? I know it's not a foolproof guarantee of avoiding another pregnancy, but at least it prevents for some women. These QF types who don't, in fact, leave it up to God don't seem likely to breastfeed as long, so that they can pop out the next blessing.

I would like a larger family myself (though small by QF standards) but there is no way I'd want to get pregnant within a year after having a baby. I'm going through my second pregnancy now and was pregnant again three months after a miscarriage -- even that seems to take a bit more of a toll on my body than my first pregnancy did. It seems to me that getting pregnant again soon after another full-term pregnancy would be exhausting to one's body, but if you're in a competitive mode to have as many kids as possible during your fertile years, maybe it seems worth it.