1st Term Obama Approval

[freejoytoo]

According to Wikipedia: "Country A, a perfectly socialist country with a planned economy with very low average per capita income would receive a higher score for having lower income inequality than Country B with a higher income inequality, even if the bottom of Country B's population distribution had a higher per capita income than Country A. Real examples of this include former East Germany compared to former West Germany or North Korea compared to South Korea. In each case, the socialist country has a low income discrepancy (and therefore would score high in that regard), but lower per capita incomes than a large majority of their neighboring counterpart."

So its all about the way the score the standard of living. Socialist countries have lower per capita income. There is less success in Socialism.

Source? Wikipedia is unreliable. Also, socialism does not equal communism, as I mentioned earlier. They are two VERY different political ideologies. Do you know the difference?

It is laughable that you are comparing countries like Norway and Denmark to North Korea.

[JesusFightClub]

I am soooo tempted to do a "What is communism" post. Not here, but in Chatter.

I will do it and redirect Jericho to it, if needed. S/he is making one hell of a lot of category mistakes.

Jericho? I am a communist. To break that down a bit, I am a Marxist, a Leninist and FWIW a Trotskyist. My politics are most closely in alignment with the UK Socialist Workers' Party, though I have been influenced by anarchist thinking as well. I am holding up my Party card as we speak, though you can't see it through the monitor ;)

I am not remotely like a US Democrat. People who support Obama are people who want a more just society (in their view) but they aren't like me. The fact you confuse us all shows how little you know of politics.

[freejoytoo]

Please do, JFC!

Hey, I'm Children Stacked Like Cordwood!

[jericho]

Jericho is probably like a lot of right wingers I meet. They aren't wealthy. Although they work hard, they still have a hard time affording health insurance and making ends meet. Most don't realize that they've fallen for propaganda that hurts them.

I'd ask Jericho to look at the obvious. Who profits by screaming about class warfare and not taking from the rich? I will tell you who, the very wealthy and politicians.

No one on the left is calling for the wealthy to give up all their funds. However, because they have more resources, the rich should be taxed at a higher rate than they are now. That isn't stealing from them.

It's about principle. Obviously the wealthy aren't going to be hurt by a little bit more taxes, but what happens when government asks for a little more, and a little more? The point isn't that the rich can afford it, its that they are being penalized for being rich. That's not what America is about. It's about the freedom to having no limits to what you can achieve. Sure there are those who abuse their wealth and that should be exposed and fixed. But life is not fair. We will always have poverty in the world. And we will always have the rich.

Taxing the wealthy at a higher rate won't even make a dent in the national debt either. The real problem is government spending. Congress desperately needs to cut spending. Senator Tom Colburn, a man I respect highly, has been pushing for month for a bill that would cut several billion dollars in duplicate spending. Money that is being paid out more than once to the same things and would not be missed at all. He can't even get the Senate to pass it.

[freejoytoo]

Makes me glad I'm not American if a principle is not giving a damn about anyone else. Universal healthcare won't stop you making money and a tax to help those who need it won't stop you being wealthy either. It's not quite as simple as building your way to the top - so much relies on where you're born, your family's situation and your standard of education. The American Dream is more of an American Nightmare.

[Visionoyahweh]

It's not quite as simple as building your way to the top - so much relies on where you're born, your family's situation and your standard of education.

Jericho won't agree with this. Being an American makes you exceptional, and 'success' has nothing to do with your personal circumstances.

If you disagree, we'll bomb* you, you crazy foreigner! ;)

*Infinite spending on the world's most powerful military is A-OK, but infinite spending on healthcare isn't. Welcome to America!

[formergothardite]

Jesus still said that if someone demands your money you should give it and not ask for it back, so I don't think he really cared if you didn't agree with why they were taking your money, Jericho. What would Jesus do?

[emmiedahl]

It's about principle. Obviously the wealthy aren't going to be hurt by a little bit more taxes, but what happens when government asks for a little more, and a little more? The point isn't that the rich can afford it, its that they are being penalized for being rich.

I think Mitt Romney should be paying the same tax rate or a bit more than a middle class worker. That's not class warfare, that is common sense. The wealthy pay the lowest rate now that they have in decades and it is fucking with our ability to pay our bills. The wealth is not trickling down.

That's not what America is about. It's about the freedom to's having no limits to what you can achieve. Sure there are those who abuse their wealth and that should be exposed and fixed. But life is not fair. We will always have poverty in the world. And we will always have the rich.

Right, but we can ensure that the rich do not victimize the poor and that the workers who give the wealthy their wealth in the first place get a minimal standard of living.

Taxing the wealthy at a higher rate won't even make a dent in the national debt either. The real problem is government spending. Congress desperately needs to cut spending. Senator Tom Colburn, a man I respect highly, has been pushing for month for a bill that would cut several billion dollars in duplicate spending. Money that is being paid out more than once to the same things and would not be missed at all. He can't even get the Senate to pass it.

[jericho]

Jericho won't agree with this. Being an American makes you exceptional, and 'success' has nothing to do with your personal circumstances.

If you disagree, we'll bomb* you, you crazy foreigner! ;)

*Infinite spending on the world's most powerful military is A-OK, but infinite spending on healthcare isn't. Welcome to America!

Actually I do agree with that. Like I said, life is not fair. We have to do the best with what we are dealt. That's why so many high-income parents use their wealth to try and make the best for their children and future family generations. There is nothing wrong with that. Should the wealthy want to use their money to help the poor? Absolutely. But what we are arguing about here is the method in which you do that.

[valsa]

We have to do the best with what we are dealt.

Spoken like someone who wasn't dealt a truly shit hand in life.

[Visionoyahweh]

Spoken like someone who wasn't dealt a truly shit hand in life.

+1

[lindsey]

I guess I should use your liberal sources?

Since I live in ebil socialist Germany, I am already dead because of the loooooooooong waiting lines (like really, I have to wait until 4 pm when I have a toothache and I call the dentist at 10 am?!? This is unacceptable!) and my corpse will only leave this here

[formergothardite]

Actually I do agree with that. Like I said, life is not fair. We have to do the best with what we are dealt. That's why so many high-income parents use their wealth to try and make the best for their children and future family generations. There is nothing wrong with that. Should the wealthy want to use their money to help the poor? Absolutely. But what we are arguing about here is the method in which you do that.

And history has proven the method you want to use fails.

[jericho]

About Tom Coburn, I cannot find anything about his new bill. But just googling him, he sounds like a real peach. I can see that he performed forced sterilizations on poor women and has been accused of Medicaid fraud. He has placed administrative holds on bills to expedite veteran's health services. In fact, he is accused of misusing holds; they are supposed to be for reasons other than "I don't like this bill." Basically, he wastes American tax dollars by making the legislature have to fight just to begin working on any project or voting on anything. Sounds like he want efficiency, all right. :roll: He is against regulating tobacco. He opposed protecting government whistleblowers. Yeah, a real nice guy. Maybe you can direct me to his piece of legislation and explain why you would even consider voting for him despite his being a horrible human being.

Senators Coburn and Warner Introduce Bill to Eliminate $5 Billion in Duplicative & Overlapping Government Programs, Urge Congress to Save Taxpayer Dollars Today

(WASHINGTON, D.C.) – Today, U.S. Senators Tom Coburn, M.D. (R-OK) and Mark Warner (D-VA) introduced a bill that would require the Office or Management and Budget (OMB) and executive branch departments and agencies to reduce at least $5 billion in federal spending by eliminating, consolidating, or streamlining government programs and agencies with duplicative and overlapping missions. The proposal reinforces the need for Congress to take immediate action to pass legislation that saves taxpayer dollars by cutting billions of dollars exposed in a recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report as wasteful and duplicative spending.

“If the Senate would simply spend the time debating spending cuts and take immediate action to save taxpayers $5 billion, we could make great strides toward reducing our debt and possibly avoid budget standoffs,†Dr. Coburn said, noting that the Senate has taken 50 percent fewer votes in 2011 than at this time last year.

“Many Senators on both sides of the aisle understand the seriousness of our debt threat and are willing to go through the budget program by program to identify cuts. The best way to cut spending is to make hard choices and set priorities,†Dr. Coburn said.

“While $5 billion admittedly is ‘small ball’ when compared to this year’s $1.6 trillion deficit and our $14 trillion debt, this represents a solid beginning. It shows we will explore every opportunity to cut costs and save taxpayer money,†Senator Warner said. “The March 1st GAO report identified 34 policy areas with overlapping or duplicative activities, and this legislation takes meaningful initial steps to save at least $5 billion in wasteful federal spending.â€

On April 6, 2011, the Senate accepted, by a vote of 64 to 36, identical language offered as amendment (#273) by Dr. Coburn and Sen. Warner that would require the Office of Management and Budget to rescind at least $5 billion in duplicative spending identified in a recent GAO report on duplication. The underlying legislation, however, has been pulled from consideration, prompting Dr. Coburn and Sen. Warner to reintroduce their proposal as stand-alone legislation.

OMB would be required to identify and report to Congress any legislative changes required to further eliminate, consolidate, or streamline government programs and agencies with duplicative and overlapping missions. In his 2011 State of the Union Address, President Obama pledged to eliminate and consolidate duplicative programs. The GAO report finding the federal government could save hundreds of billions of dollars by eliminating duplication and overlap provides Congress with a blueprint for doing this.

[freejoytoo]

Jericho, you should read Mary Barton. That should give you an idea of what it was really like for the poor before social security and heads up, it wasn't pretty.

[debrand]

[

It's about principle.

Of course, people to the left of you are applying their morals to the situation also. The question is, how to have the best society that we can. Of course, society will never be perfect because humans aren't perfect.

Obviously the wealthy aren't going to be hurt by a little bit more taxes, but what happens when government asks for a little more, and a little more? The point isn't that the rich can afford it, its that they are being penalized for being rich.

Why pay taxes, at all? If your fear is that the government will take more and more, it would make sense to never pay taxes. Of course that means that you don't have roads, military or schools. There is no safety net nor anything to run our country.

How are the rich penalized for being rich? They are part of our society. Being a part of society means that you have responsiblities. Taxes are part of that responsibility.

That's not what America is about. It's about the freedom to having no limits to what you can achieve.

Lots of people have limits in this country. If you can't afford health care, a serious limit has been placed on you.

Sure there are those who abuse their wealth and that should be exposed and fixed. But life is not fair. We will always have poverty in the world. And we will always have the rich.

No life is not fair. But don't you feel a little guilty that you think that the rich should not pay higher taxes because you consider that unfair(I do not consider that unfair) but someone who is too poor to get preventative care should get sick enough that they could die.

. Senator Tom Colburn, a man I respect highly, has been pushing for month for a bill that would cut several billion dollars in duplicate spending. Money that is being paid out more than once to the same things and would not be missed at all. He can't even get the Senate to pass it.

I don't know his name but I will look him up.

[emmiedahl]

Actually I do agree with that. Like I said, life is not fair. We have to do the best with what we are dealt. That's why so many high-income parents use their wealth to try and make the best for their children and future family generations. There is nothing wrong with that. Should the wealthy want to use their money to help the poor? Absolutely. But what we are arguing about here is the method in which you do that.

Life is not fair, but our country will be better if we provide a minimum standard for all citizens.

We are not arguing about method. The need is there, and the wealthy either cannot or will not meet it. That is a fact.

The only possible way to resolve the situation is for the government to offer more help. Fact. The only way for the government to afford this is to collect more tax revenue. Fact. It is more fair to tax unearned income from people who can afford it than to take earned income from people who are already struggling. Also a fact.

To say, "let's go back in time, let's adopt policies under which the poor starved and died in the streets, and let's just hope they work this time. Because I don't want to take a small portion of someone's unearned income. They did not earn it--by definition--but I think they still deserve another yacht more than a hundred children deserve medical treatment." That is not a method of helping the poor. You want class warfare? That's it. That's what it looks like. Letting one person's luxuries be more important than another person's needs.

[Austin]

I get the feeling that Jericho is relatively young or has had a pretty peachy life. That's not a slam on young people at all, but the naivete and the super-duper black and white thinking makes me think it's one or the other - or both.

[emmiedahl]

Senators Coburn and Warner Introduce Bill to Eliminate $5 Billion in Duplicative & Overlapping Government Programs, Urge Congress to Save Taxpayer Dollars Today

I noticed it is co-sponsored by a Democrat. You can be all for cutting inefficiency and also for promoting human rights.

I still would never vote for Coburn. imo, forced sterilization and Medicaid fraud somewhat negate any good he has done. Also, many of his positions are very illogical--not regulating the tobacco industry? really? But I applaud any attempts to end waste.

[EmmieJ]

EmmieJ, I am going to ask an ignorant question. How do you sign up for the insurance you use? I have a dear friend who hasn't had an annual exam in years because of the cost. To get insurance through her husband's company would cost seven hundred dollars a month. They simply don't have the money. I'd love to be able to help her get medical care.

If your friend lives in California, then she should go to http://www.pcip.ca.gov/Home/default.aspx. "The PCIP offers health coverage to medically-uninsurable individuals who live in California. The program is available for individuals who have not had health coverage in the last 6 months. The California PCIP is run by the Managed Risk Medical Insurance Board (MRMIB)." They used to require that anyone applying provide them with a rejection letter from a private health insurer. I don't think they require that anymore.

If she lives in another state, she just needs to find the website for her state's particular program - every state has one. The application process is fairly simple - and there was no need to provide my health history, undergo a physical exam, etc. (I had Kaiser before I dropped coverage. After I found my new doctor, he discovered I had high blood pressure. It is now well controlled with medication. But when I reapplied to Kaiser, they turned me down because of that, plus I take a pain medication for chronic upper back pain due to a car accident. In other words, if you need health care, they don't want you.)

But further, I would suggest your friend look around in her area for any health care clinics that might be of service to her, with or without insurance. I found one in my area that is truly wonderful. You might hear the word "clinic" and picture some rundown dump filled with crying babies. But the one I go to is in a beautiful two story building up on the hillside, has a lab, vision center, gynecology services and primary care physicians. I have never been happier with my health care. At the very least, I would want your friend to be able to have an annual general check up and physical!

[jericho]

About Tom Coburn, I cannot find anything about his new bill. But just googling him, he sounds like a real peach. I can see that he performed forced sterilizations on poor women

and has been accused of Medicaid fraud.

[jericho]

I noticed it is co-sponsored by a Democrat. You can be all for cutting inefficiency and also for promoting human rights.

I still would never vote for Coburn. imo, forced sterilization and Medicaid fraud somewhat negate any good he has done. Also, many of his positions are very illogical--not regulating the tobacco industry? really? But I applaud any attempts to end waste.

You can dig up dirt on anyone, especially when you are a politician. Everything I have seen from him has been in the interest of cutting waste. Sometimes you have to choose make a tough choice (i.e the veterans benefits) which will make you look bad even for doing good, but I applaud him for standing by his principles.

[emmiedahl]

The lawsuit was ultimately dismissed with no finding of liability on Coburn's part.

Wrong! Coburn admitted to taking both fallopian tubes even through the ectopic pregnancy was only on one. The woman was 20 and in his state you cannot sterilize before 21. He (for some reason!) decided not to bill Medicaid for the procedure even though he admits it happened. All signs pointed to him losing the lawsuit and being publicly disgraced, losing his medical license as well. The girl suddenly dropped the lawsuit and refused to discuss it; many believe that there was intimidation or a payoff.

No charges were filed against Coburn for this claim.

See above.

The veterans bill was not coming out a a budget. That's why Coburn opposed it and many other bills. Here's a story about it. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article. ... IGOm597922

He did not oppose it, he put a hold on it so that no one could even discuss it or vote on it. He was basically misusing the legislative process. He does this with any bill he dislikes. Then it requires tons of time and federal money to remove the hold. Kinda sounds like that government inefficiency he claims to be against, doesn't it?

Yep, it's anti free-market.

He opposed legislation to stop tobacco companies from lying to their customers. Is honesty anti-free market now? Companies should be allowed to lie, to fill their products with poisons, and it is all okay?

[Maude]

It's about principle. Obviously the wealthy aren't going to be hurt by a little bit more taxes, but what happens when government asks for a little more, and a little more? The point isn't that the rich can afford it, its that they are being penalized for being rich. That's not what America is about. It's about the freedom to having no limits to what you can achieve.

The government is already asking for 'a little more, and a little more.' (I agree there needs to be some reform). That aside, the problem is in the distribution. A flat tax asks more from those who have less, and less from those who have more. It's not a penalization to ask more of someone who has more, it's simply part and parcel of being a part of society - helping one another for the benefit of all. E.g. You may never drive on highway A, but it's likely that people who supply you with the necessities, or even the luxuries, of life do drive on highway A. Thus, your tax dollars used for maintenance on highway A are beneficial to you, even if you may not realize it. A functional society relies on our interdependence, and our respect for it.

But life is not fair. We will always have poverty in the world. And we will always have the rich.

I find this attitude of 'we will always have poverty in the world' to be part of the reason we do. If we start with the assumption that it'll always exist, why should we do anything to combat it? Also, yes, life is most certainly not always fair, but why should we help it along?

[freejoytoo]

Jericho, you are part of society. Part being in society is paying tax and if you are against that then I'll have to assume you are also against schools, roads and the military. And it baffles me that people don't think tax for healthcare is important. I'd say, next to funding fro schools, it is the most important tax there is.

I'm relatively young but think I have much better grasp on history than jericho.