1st Term Obama Approval

[freejoytoo]

Ironic that his blogger name is The Last Ditch. If he had his way poor people would probably die in ditches because they couldn't use roads (well, they'd probably die from no healthcare or jobs but they wouldn't even be allowed to stagger along the road).

He was against poor people finding work? Wtf? Was he for some kind of feudal system?

I weep for humanity, I really do.

[emmiedahl]

Jericho is all for legislating his warped, bigoted, extra-Biblical version of morality. But the stuff Jesus actually says, that should be optional.

To reframe the argument, why do conservatives assume that extreme capitalism is the natural order and that anything departing from it is evil? Early hunter-gatherer tribes were basically communist. Why not assume that sharing resources is the default and that the true evil lies in hoarding more than you need?

[freejoytoo]

I find it ironic that the posters who get on their high horse about being so Christian and wanting a Christian nation are the ones who want to implement the most selfish laws imaginable. Whatever happened to help thy neighbour?

Edited for grammar.

[Austin]

I find it ironic that the posters who get on their high horse about being so Christian and wanting a Christian nation when they want to implement the most selfish laws imaginable. Whatever happened to help thy neighbour?

The real religion these people have is unfettered, unregulated capitalism. They've conflated their version of Christianity, rooted in nationalism and their tightly-held concept of American exceptionalism, with capitalism to such an extent that their Christianity would be unrecognizable to the early church. Or the church in nearly any time throughout history.

[freejoytoo]

Don't they understand that capitalism hurts THEM? If something happens to them, if they lose all their money they are totally screwed.

[Austin]

Don't they understand that capitalism hurts THEM? If something happens to them, if they lose all their money they are totally screwed.

To me, that seems like the eternal mystery.

My opinion: this is a huge group of people who has been hoodwinked into voting against their own interests. Some of it, I think, is rooted in hubris, and a lot is just ignorance. The hubris part is that they believe nothing bad can ever happen to them because they've followed the rules (worked hard, had the right values, etc.). Many of them actually believe that they, too, can be part of the upper echelon one day, because if they follow the formula, that's supposed to be the payoff. It's a illusion, but one they seem happy to hold on to. They truly believe that meritocracy is what determines peoples' fates in this country. Hard to believe, but true.

[emmiedahl]

Conservatives assume that the wealthy are people "just like them" but more blessed, more hard-working, more deserving.

The ultra-wealthy in the US have not earned their money. They get money from other people's labor. They get money from the government. They invest inherited wealth in tax-protected arenas. They are not working, they are hoarding. They are taking the proceeds of other people's labor.

Meanwhile, their employees--the people who *are* working--are going without health care, without educations. Sometimes the actions of the wealthy affect more people than their own employees, entire regions are being economically and environmentally destroyed to maintain their lifestyle. They will continue to leech off the labor of others and destroy the planet as long as they are allowed. They will not provide a decent living for the people who give them their wealth unless they are forced. As long as they have their yacht and their jet, they frankly do not give a fuck if long-time employees are dying of cancer or unable to feed their children.

They are taking what is not morally theirs. And we have a right to demand some of it back. We have a right to say, if you will not give your employees medical care, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from their labor. If you will not clean up your environmental messes, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from trashing the environment in the first place.

[Austin]

Conservatives assume that the wealthy are people "just like them" but more blessed, more hard-working, more deserving.

The ultra-wealthy in the US have not earned their money. They get money from other people's labor. They get money from the government. They invest inherited wealth in tax-protected arenas. They are not working, they are hoarding. They are taking the proceeds of other people's labor.

Meanwhile, their employees--the people who *are* working--are going without health care, without educations. Sometimes the actions of the wealthy affect more people than their own employees, entire regions are being economically and environmentally destroyed to maintain their lifestyle. They will continue to leech off the labor of others and destroy the planet as long as they are allowed. They will not provide a decent living for the people who give them their wealth unless they are forced. As long as they have their yacht and their jet, they frankly do not give a fuck if long-time employees are dying of cancer or unable to feed their children.

They are taking what is not morally theirs. And we have a right to demand some of it back. We have a right to say, if you will not give your employees medical care, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from their labor. If you will not clean up your environmental messes, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from trashing the environment in the first place.

You said this so much better. Bingo!

And I am ROFLMAO that these people are referred to as "job-creators", which is GOP-speak for "rich people". Unfortunately, they are not very concerned with actually creating jobs. If we're going to give tax breaks to "job creators", I don't think it's unreasonable to demand that they provide some proof that they actually created some.

[freejoytoo]

I just don't understand how the majority of America supports public education and takes it a given but balks at universal healthcare.

I think this photo sums up the ultra rich:

[emmiedahl]

Bush Sr. called trickle-down "voodoo economics" for a reason. There was a time when even conservatives acknowledged it was not a realistic idea.

[formergothardite]

Ironic that his blogger name is The Last Ditch. If he had his way poor people would probably die in ditches because they couldn't use roads (well, they'd probably die from no healthcare or jobs but they wouldn't even be allowed to stagger along the road).

He was against poor people finding work? Wtf? Was he for some kind of feudal system?

I weep for humanity, I really do.

I think even Jericho might agree this guy is crazy. LOL. Or maybe Jericho is on his side. He will have to clear that up. I can't read his blog often because he is just so stupid.

Sample of such stupidity:

First, because I want to, in some way, commemorate the 150th anniversary of the beginning of the War for Southern Independence. Secondly, because I am sick and tired of all the other commemorative articles focusing on the liberation of the negro.

I will never forget that 350,000 of my people were killed and their homes destroyed for the sake of “national unityâ€.

He is another one who is a die-hard Calvinist who argues that slavery is okay.

[CynicMom]

This is a math/economics question! [breaks out #2 pencil]

The video posted by Jericho claims that the job creation rate improved not because of any action by Obama but because the "max" number of people had already become unemployed. In other words the job loss rate would have gone down regardless.

The metric recommended in the video, measuring the total percentage of the population that is unemployed at any given time, isn't possible for a government to measure. How could a government keep tabs on people hearts (whether they WANT a job or not)? The government instead keeps tabs on things that are measurable such as the number of people who gain/lose jobs and apply for unemployment. The video claims that these are inaccurate but it's the best any government can do.

BUT it is possible to restate his claims a bit in the form of a testable hypothesis. IF the "max" number of people in our country became unemployed in 2009 then one of two things is true:

1. The unemployment rate is was higher in 2009 than historical levels (leading to a big unemployment % suddenly)

2. The unemployment rate has been high for a really long time prior to 2009 (leading to a big unemployment % over time)

Now check out this graph (from the Bureau of Labor Statistics): http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

Put in 1948 (the earliest possible year) till 2012 and graph

Conclusion*:

Unemployment has been higher than this one other time, the early 80s. You COULD argue that this supports the view that the rate would go down regardless. HOWEVER note that in the time immediately before the 80s (mid 70s) was also a time of high unemployment relative to the 2005 time period. So this graph seems to suggest that there were more people unemployed in the early 80s as a percentage of the total population than there are today. This means it's possible but not probable that the rate of job loss would have slowed on it's own.

*This analysis does not include the Great Depression. You could argue that the Great Depression invalidates Jerichos argument on its face with the massive unemployment and poverty. However government statistics weren't available then so for argument's sake I'm sticking to the neutral numbers.

tl:dr - It's theoretically possible that Jericho's right and the rate of job loss would have starting improving on it's own. However this is nowhere NEAR as clear-cut as he would like it to be. It's also possible to look at this same data and conclude he's full of shit.

[emmiedahl]

Here's an example of how the hard the wealthy work for their money. Mitt Romney and his wife earned 42.8 million in 2010. Assuming that they each worked 40 hours weeks every week with no vacation or holidays whatsoever, they each made over $10,000 an hour. Does Romney work so hard that he is entitled to that much money? Is he really earning that? Or is he merely using the benefits of other people's labor.

In 2009, 1,470 households reported income of more than $1 million in 2009 but paid zero federal income tax on it. In 2008, the average federal income tax rate of the richest 400 people in the country was 18.11 percent. Does anyone really think that these people are paying their fair share?

[GolightlyGrrl]

To me, that seems like the eternal mystery.

My opinion: this is a huge group of people who has been hoodwinked into voting against their own interests. Some of it, I think, is rooted in hubris, and a lot is just ignorance. The hubris part is that they believe nothing bad can ever happen to them because they've followed the rules (worked hard, had the right values, etc.). Many of them actually believe that they, too, can be part of the upper echelon one day, because if they follow the formula, that's supposed to be the payoff. It's a illusion, but one they seem happy to hold on to. They truly believe that meritocracy is what determines peoples' fates in this country. Hard to believe, but true.

Thomas Frank illustrates your opinion masterfully in his book "What's the Matter With Kansas?"

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kans ... 0805073396

[Austin]

Thanks, GLG - that book has been on my reading list but I need to move it up in the queue!

[GolightlyGrrl]

Thanks, GLG - that book has been on my reading list but I need to move it up in the queue!

Yes, make this book a priority. I read it a couple of years ago, and it really opened my eyes.

[Austin]

Now I know some of these countries are ebil socialist countries, but really? Really?

We can argue that the CEO's education, experience, and responsibilities make him "worth" considerably more than the average worker in his company. But hundreds of times more? Nobody is worth that much more than others.

[emmiedahl]

Has anyone read Pity the Billionaire? It sounds good.

http://www.amazon.com/Pity-Billionaire- ... pd_sim_b_1

Austin, that is appalling. Just appalling.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Has anyone read Pity the Billionaire? It sounds good.

http://www.amazon.com/Pity-Billionaire- ... pd_sim_b_1

Austin, that is appalling. Just appalling.

This is definitely going on my reading list. Thanks, Austin.

And the CEO to average worker pay here in the US makes me want to vomit. Most CEOs are not worth nearly 500% more than any of us, especially considering far too many of them make piss poor decisions that screw over clients/customers, pollute the environment, break the law, hurt their workers and cause companies to fail.

[jericho]

Conservatives assume that the wealthy are people "just like them" but more blessed, more hard-working, more deserving.

The ultra-wealthy in the US have not earned their money. They get money from other people's labor. They get money from the government. They invest inherited wealth in tax-protected arenas. They are not working, they are hoarding. They are taking the proceeds of other people's labor.

Meanwhile, their employees--the people who *are* working--are going without health care, without educations. Sometimes the actions of the wealthy affect more people than their own employees, entire regions are being economically and environmentally destroyed to maintain their lifestyle. They will continue to leech off the labor of others and destroy the planet as long as they are allowed. They will not provide a decent living for the people who give them their wealth unless they are forced. As long as they have their yacht and their jet, they frankly do not give a fuck if long-time employees are dying of cancer or unable to feed their children.

They are taking what is not morally theirs. And we have a right to demand some of it back. We have a right to say, if you will not give your employees medical care, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from their labor. If you will not clean up your environmental messes, WE WILL and we will do it with the money you made from trashing the environment in the first place.

A lot has been discussed since I was last here and I don't have time to respond to it all, but this post made me the most upset. Let me give you a stat. 80% of Americas millionaires are 1st generation rich. Let me translate that for you...they started from nothing. They didn't inherit their wealth; they earned it. To say that a wealthy person has not earned their money is total bull. They were at the bottom once and now they are giving others a chance to work and rise up the ladder. NYU sociologist Dalton Conley says that "higher-income folks work more hours than lower-wage earners do." You say the wealthy are hoarding, but most would call it investing, and look where that has gotten the wealthy in the last few years. Because so much of their income is tied up in investments, the recession has hit the rich especially hard. Much attention has been paid recently to a Congressional Budget Office study that showed incomes for the top 1 percent rose far faster from 1980 until 2007 than for the rest of us. But the nonpartisan Tax Foundation has found that since 2007, there has been a 39 percent decline in the number of American millionaires. Among the "super-rich," the decline has been even sharper: The number of Americans earning more than $10 million a year has fallen by 55 percent. In fact, while in 2008 the top 1 percent earned 20 percent of all income here, that figure has declined to just 16 percent. And before you start cheering that the playing field is becoming more level, lets realize that money wasn't transferred to the poor. It's money that disappeared into recession thin air. And as far as taxes go, maybe Warren Buffett is paying a lower tax rate than his secretary, as he claims. But the comparison is misleading because Buffett's income comes mostly from capital gains, which were already taxed at their origin through the corporate-income tax. Beyond taxes, the rich also pay in terms of private charity. Households with more than $1 million in income donated more than $150 billion to charity last year, roughly half of all US charitable donations. Greedy? It hardly seems so. And let us not forget the fact that the rich provide the investment capital that funds ventures, creates jobs and spurs innovation. The money that the rich save and invest is the money that companies use to start or expand businesses, buy machinery and other physical capital and hire workers. So lets stop saying they are hoarding their money. If you think you have a "right to demand some of it back", then go get motivated. Steven Covey says the #1 habit of highly effective people is that they are proactive. They happen to things, things don't happen to them. If you are successful, you will decide at some point that you are in charge of your destiny. If you do not decide this, then you will sit around and continue to complain about how the rich are snobs, and hope that the government continues to give you freebies.

[Visionoyahweh]

A lot has been discussed since I was last here and I don't have time to respond to it all

Translation: I can't counter all the facts you've brought up so I'll shift focus from Jesus to those poor starving millionaires!

[jericho]

Real Translation: I have a life and can't spend all of it defending the truth to the brainwashed.

[Visionoyahweh]

Real Translation: I have a life and can't spend all of it defending the truth to the brainwashed.

Go create jobs. I need something to do! 8-)

[Arielkay]

What the hell is with this Jericho guy? Why does he continue to post here? What is the point?

[Witsec7]

What the hell is with this Jericho guy? Why does he continue to post here? What is the point?

The point? Why his arms aren't long enough to stroke his own ego.