"When should girls get their hands dirty?" Only at VF....

[MamaJunebug]

I just can't imagine who buys these things. Who just doesn't chat over the backyard fence, or during the play time of the homeschool association get-together, about the various activities for boys and for girls?

Well, for those who don't have such interpersonal interaction, Vision Forum is charging a low, low $49 (plus s+h? uncertain) to clear it all up for you.

visionforum.com/browse/product/when-girls-should-not-be-girly/

What gets me is the non sequitur in this, going from girls' dirty hands to miscarriage???

At Vision Forum, we regularly hear questions such as: When should my daughters be “girly,†and when should they get their hands dirty in service to Christ? Does the Bible speak to miscarriage and the salvation of unborn babies who die in the womb? How do we make educational choices for our family, and why are those choices so important? What are the secrets to raising children who will remain faithful servants to Christ for generations to come?

To answer these questions, and to encourage Christian families to be noble, to persevere, and to find hope in God’s plan for mankind, Vision Forum is pleased to announce a new audio collection called When Girls Should Get Their Hands Dirty...and Other Answers for Christian Families.

No surprise that AS & E Botkin are the subject-matter experts featured.

[gustava]

Of course, AS & E have experiential knowledge of miscarriage, families, and raising children.

[emmiedahl]

I'm sure they studied it extensively at university as well. :rolleyes:

[emeraldskull]

^ No, AS & E are talking about girls, the rest is all Beall and Dougie... :-P LOLz

What I found astounding was the implication in this sentence: "Does the Bible speak to miscarriage and the salvation of unborn babies who die in the womb?"

Which seems to imply that once a baby is born, it is a sin-filled creature that is NOT going to heaven unless saved... o.O Does anyone else read it that way??

[Burris]

Of course, AS & E have experiential knowledge of miscarriage, families, and raising children.

They don't need experience. They're among the Elect, dontcha know?

[emmiedahl]

They are probably considered sinful even while in the womb.

[Kishiria]

The Psalms and some of the major prophets speak of God knowing a person even in the womb. However the Law of Moses does not assign any humanity to a fetus that has not yet drawn breath. If someone assaults a pregnant woman and she miscarries, the reparation is the same as for the loss of a hand or foot, NOT the loss of a human life of either sex. Judaism permits abortion.

[emmiedahl]

I've had several miscarriages and would like to think they had souls and that we will meet in the hereafter. I don't believe that, but it would be a nice thing to think. Mormons believe that you get to parent the child in Heaven. That's a lovely thought and if it makes them feel better? more power to them.

[xDreamerx]

Am I the only one who read this as, "If your daughter does things that are unfeminine she will be doomed to miscarriages and infertility."?

[maybeizfundie]

It is a weird grouping of questions. I understand theyre trying to cover a whole load of questions, kind of randomly and unconnected, but still, it is weird.

What I found astounding was the implication in this sentence: "Does the Bible speak to miscarriage and the salvation of unborn babies who die in the womb?"

Which seems to imply that once a baby is born, it is a sin-filled creature that is NOT going to heaven unless saved... o.O Does anyone else read it that way??

I think the question itself is fairly neutral ("Does the Bible speak to [insert issue in question]").

But it's hard to read it that way knowing how waaaaaaay Reformed VF is. As someone who has had several miscarriages, I have HUGE issues with some of the reformed thought on this subject, as it goes back to the whole "created for destruction" thing which I detest and consider heresy.

But, not all fundies are Reformed (or that reformed). The other mode of thought would be believing that we are all (even the unborn) subject to the Fall and owners of a sin nature, but that Christ's atonement is effective for all (even the unborn). There is no direct scripture that would teach this. But weaving together principles that are there would lead me more towards miscarried babies populating Heaven rather than hell.

[maybeizfundie]

Am I the only one who read this as, "If your daughter does things that are unfeminine she will be doomed to miscarriages and infertility."?

I think that's reading way into it, inspite of the oddness of the questions they chose to put together.

[emmyfair]

Mormons believe that you get to parent the child in Heaven. quote]

That made me really happy to read this.

[antifundie]

I can't (ok, it's VF, so I can) believe that they are trying to get people to pay $49 to find out WHEN girls should be in service to Christ. I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't use the word "girly," but I'm also pretty sure that it does, in fact, talk about service to others. And getting dirty doing so.

Seriously.

Not that I know Jesus personally, but I just can't see him saying to any young lady, "Oh, you shouldn't have cleaned a wond/helped a DV victim/Rape Survivor/Giving food to the needy/etc., you really should have stayed home and been 'girly' "--Yeah, if I see that on judgement day, I may just think I ended up in the wrong place.

[urban explorer]

Some of the responses are scary, I couldn't imagine growing up in such a controlling environment being told day after day what MY role in MY life would be when I grew up.My dad would be uncomfortable if I wanted to be SAHD, how would living at your parents home help you, I tried telling him he was my headship and he was responsible in finding me someone to be my new headship, at that time I was lucky not to be carted off to the looneybin. LOL

[Letgo]

Seriously? They need to pay to learn when it is okay for girls to get their hands dirty? Don't VF people EVER think for themselves? My kids all played in the mud, planted flowers and veggies, played sports, rode quads, hiked, camped, etc. (Soccer in the rain cannot be a clean sport.) It never occurred to me to ask anyone if it was okay. Children need to get dirty and have fun. Of course, my girls are not very girly and never have been. But why would someone even need to ask when it is permissible for a girl to get her hands dirty? I bet the answer is when being a good SAHD serving Daddy.

[treemom]

I've had several miscarriages and would like to think they had souls and that we will meet in the hereafter. I don't believe that, but it would be a nice thing to think. Mormons believe that you get to parent the child in Heaven. That's a lovely thought and if it makes them feel better? more power to them.

I think it is fine to believe whatever brings you comfort. I just hope people don't think it should end their grief.

[Kaylee]

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is going to be "When it supports the interests or career of their father or future husband". The examples I've seen on a few blogs just seemed weird, and pointing that way.

That said, yeah some people probably do need someone respected in "their" movement to tell them it is ok to do things other than sit around acting like the virtuous daughter in some Victorian novel.

I hate to admit this, but I spent so long entrenched in the "Fascinating Womanhood" lifestyle/movement that I gave up a lot of interests because I thought they seemed unfeminine, or was told by others they were. Of all things, the book that helped me realize it was "OK" for a woman in a submissive Christian type marriage to still get her hands dirty and use her abilities, even if they didn't seem super feminine, was Debi Pearl's "Created to Be His Helpmeet". I don't know that I would have listened to that advice, at the time, from more mainstream or equality-minded sources, but reading it there made it seem OK.

[Marian the Librarian]

When should "girls" not be girly? Why, according to the Botkins' website, when they're slaughtering chickens with their brothers and future sisters-in-law!

(It just steams my beans that they're still referred to as "girls," never mind that A-S has hit the quarter-century mark...)

[Deleted12]

Doug Phillips talking about his passion for children? Awesome.

[xDreamerx]

I think that's reading way into it, inspite of the oddness of the questions they chose to put together.

Well, in the very least these idiots have no understanding of the rules of syntax in a paragraph. Why put two ideas next to each other if you don't intend to express a relationship?

[marmalade]

From Dougie's "...Multigenerational [sic] Visionaries:"

Make provision for your descendants

Hear that one JimBoob? Stop hoarding and/or buying real estate with money that legally belongs to your three adult daughters. It appears that the sons get their TLC cash to expand their businesses, or "business" in Smuggar's case, since Boob and Grandma own the land on which his house and car lots sit.

I hope those girls at least get a generous dowry; they've earned every cent of it. If not, then Boob has NOT provided for the descendents provided to him by his daughters (and possibly any kid who is not 18 when the show wraps). I hope there are trust funds set up for the younger kids, but as noted on another thread, it's not manditory to protect kids' interests on reality TV shows.

[maybeizfundie]

Well, in the very least these idiots have no understanding of the rules of syntax in a paragraph. Why put two ideas next to each other if you don't intend to express a relationship?

possibly because they wanted to express the wide variety of questions in their little audio gem. I read it as a list, not a paragraph.

But I might be an idiot too. Totally possible. :lol:

[mirele]

That made me really happy to read this.

Mormons also don't believe in original sin. So my whole attitude has always been WTF...especially when I was at university and reading Augustine's justification for original sin. Uh, yeah, right, dude, way to project. Maybe you should have married the mother of your son, Adeodatus, and been a father, instead of some high church dude, it might have been better for you and for the Christian world.

[Olivia]

You know, since I miscarried (which is still... very recent and raw) I've been wondering how the afterlife works for a miscarried fetus. I believe in Heaven and I believe even my cats go there, but it's so hard to wrap my head around my little fetus having any sort of soul or personality (and also so hard to wrap my head around it just ceasing to be). It's interesting to read people's different beliefs.

This might be one, though, that I can actually give up to God and believe he has it under control. Unlike the rest of the business, which makes me want to shake a finger in his face and tell him NOT TO EVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN, DO YOU HEAR ME, LORD? (Direct line to God does not always make for rational conversation with him)

[maybeizfundie]

(((((Olivia))))))