The gaping flaw in the SAHD mentality

[Daenerys]

The more I think about this as an idea, the less it seems to make sense, and the less desirable marriage seems for these girls.

Lets take the Duggar girls as an example. They are raised to believe that they should stay at home, under Daddy's care, until their knight in shining armour comes along and carries them away to start a new life. So these girls have spent their entire life at home: homeschool, homechurch, not really interacting a huge amount with people outside of their family group or approved others unless they are chaperoned heavily. Consequently, they are living in a bubble-like environment, with very narrow world or life experiences. They may or may not be happy there, but they are comfortable with their environment and spend every day with the same group of people. Their sisters are undoubtedly their best friends and closest confidantes: there is a level of protection and comfort in numbers, and they always have someone else to rely on to help with their tasks or defend them.

Now consider what would happen if one of them were to court and marry an acceptable man. Most QF girls seem to tie themselves to their husband's family as part of the idea of submission, so these girls would not just be leaving home, but leaving their world and everything that they know to go off with some guy that they will likely have known for under a year. Considering that they are 'royalty' within their world and therefore only really 'worthy' of a high-ranking guy, it is very unlikely that they would remain with Arkansas... a (not unlikely) Bates coupling would see them living in East Tennessee, over a day's drive away. These girls are not just used to being with their family, but living in a house of over twenty people, where there is always something to do and someone to talk with. If they marry, it would mean they were in a house of just them and their spouse for at least nine months, and they would never again have that 'sisterhood' that probably means so much to them. It would be the best part of a decade before they would have a child capable of significantly helping out with the chores, hence they would be doing every home task alone, as well as home-schooling the children without support or companionship. Whilst they would have their spouse who they would (hopefully) care about and get on well with, the rigid gender roles would mean the support could never be the same.

If I was a Duggar girl, I think staying at home might be the lesser of two evils, and this is why I think so many of these QF daughters will never marry.

[MamaJunebug]

Interesting analysis and actually, not a flaw IMHO. The fewer of them that marry, the fewer third-generation QFers there will be.

[Mais Pourquoi]

Seeing it written out like that makes the idea of courting/marrying a near-stranger seem even more awful. I'm not talking Duggar-Bates here so much as maybe more like what happened with Josh and Anna. Their families "fellowshipped" like twice before they became engaged. In their case, Susanna stayed with them the summer after they married, which I'm sure was Anna's way of maintaining a bond with someone/something she'd always known in a strange region and Susanna's first step of "escaping".

[gilora]

The quiverfull movement is inherently unsustainable. The more kids mom has, the more help she needs raising them and the daughters stay home through their peak fertile years.

[fundiefan]

Interesting analysis and actually, not a flaw IMHO. The fewer of them that marry, the fewer third-generation QFers there will be.

I totally agree. The more girls who stay home raising their mom's babies and taking care of their parents house, the fewer there are out there getting married and perpetuating the insanity. Not a flaw at all, as far as I'm concerned.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I totally agree. The more girls who stay home raising their mom's babies and taking care of their parents house, the fewer there are out there getting married and perpetuating the insanity. Not a flaw at all, as far as I'm concerned.

We can only hope right?

[celestial]

We can only hope right?

Amen to all of the above!

[Daenerys]

Whilst I certainly hope this movement dies, I can't help feel sorry for the individual girls. They are in such a horrible catch-22 and it's all the fault of their dumb parents.

[bananacat]

It must also be incredibly lonely and boring for a newlywed fundie girl. Her husband goes off to work all day and she stays home by herself. She can't even get a part time job until the first baby arrives, or even join most clubs. And having babies for company isn't really a good idea. My mom was so bored the first time she was on maternity leave because babies just sleep all day. So for at least a couple of years, all day long will be pretty boring and lonely, and then even after that they'll only have young children for company. I realize they're not known for their deep intellectual conversations, but they still need something more stimulating than talking to a toddler.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Agreed with all of the above, and it's one of the things I've always found problematic about this brand new radical culture that tries to pretend it's "traditional."

This system would have a better chance of perpetuating itself (not that I want to see that, but) if it really were traditional enough to the point that sizeable communities of that culture existed in given locales.

Under that scenario, when the girl moved to be with the new husband, EITHER she'd still be in her own town and able to visit constantly with her actual sisters and have them to help out, OR she would have moved far away but to another community with the same culture, so that she could meet new women friends (they would not be threatening because they'd all share the same culture) and build up a similar support system of surrogate sisters there. (And thinking backward from that, heck, probably they would have had some non-sister friends when younger too, for the same reason so it wouldn't be so stark.)

Plus they'd have more chances for courting, or barring that, could come up with a system of matchmakers (which would likely be how people would move between communities).

As it is though, each family is a lone outpost in the middle of nowhere surrounded by either nothing at all or out-group people (or most likely, sparsely populated small towns where all the other few people are out-group people) so yeah, as the original post says, it's gotta be hell for those who move out.

...which kinda makes me wonder how the newlywed NR-Anna Maxwell is doing. Though maybe she can hang out with Sarah?

I suppose the Duggar who outmarries a Bates might be able to get some support and surrogate sisterhood from the other Bates girls? Maybe?

[YPestis]

I never thought it of in those terms but that is some good points made in the OP. SAHDom offers comfort and companionship and complete social support with fewer responsibilities and more privileges than a life of perpetual motherhood. The girls will have to work to care for younger siblings but they also have lifelong friends, familiarity with everyone and knowing their place in the world.

The idea of marrying someone they've never been alone with, then flying off to live with 10 or 20 strangers would be terrifying. Suddenly, your entire support network is torn away and life only gets harder with delivery of each child. Worse, as the number of children increases, your chances of visiting your parents and siblings decreases. It seems a lonely, hard road. I can see why SAHD may be selective of whom they pick. They'd want someone close by ideally. However, given such a small fundie population, many girls may not have that many options, especially given how closest the world is. The end result may be more SAHD who never marry. That's sad for the girls, but maybe a good warning to younger generations of the dangers of this lifestyle.

[Justme]

Plus, some of these young (or not so young) women are going to have fertility issues. Not everyone is going to be able to pop out a kid every year or so. If a woman is not able to conceive or maintain a pregnancy, she's going to have a very lonely life.... especially if her family it far away....

[DinnerPlateDahlia]

Seeing it written out like that makes the idea of courting/marrying a near-stranger seem even more awful. I'm not talking Duggar-Bates here so much as maybe more like what happened with Josh and Anna. Their families "fellowshipped" like twice before they became engaged. In their case, Susanna stayed with them the summer after they married, which I'm sure was Anna's way of maintaining a bond with someone/something she'd always known in a strange region and Susanna's first step of "escaping".

I was just thinking about this while reading the Tales from a Little White House blog (noted in another thread because she wrote some inane thing about the word "Christmas" not being prominent enough in advertising). The blogger had just moved from NY, where both her family and her husband's family live, to Florida. Then she mentions she just got engaged last Xmas, and now she's already living in FL with the new husby and far enough along in a pregnancy to know the sex of the baby (usually at least 5 months).

It's so gross and creepy the way these super-sheltered girls are expected to suddenly dive headlong into a marriage and childbearing with a virtual stranger picked by daddy, and at lightning speed.

[finleeport]

I wonder what would happen if the man she marries turns out to be abusive? or at least manipulative? And what if she was raped by her husband?

[moreorlessnu]

...which kinda makes me wonder how the newlywed NR-Anna Maxwell is doing. Though maybe she can hang out with Sarah?

Wouldn't it be nice if Sara and NR-Anna could steal away, wander through a mall and go out to lunch or catch a movie?

[AnnoDomini]

I wonder what would happen if the man she marries turns out to be abusive? or at least manipulative? And what if she was raped by her husband?

According to the horror stories on NLQ, some fundy wives are led to believe there are no abusive husbands, only insufficiently-submissive wives, and/or she should 'win him by her meek countenance' or whatever it says.

[lexiloumarie]

Agreed with all of the above, and it's one of the things I've always found problematic about this brand new radical culture that tries to pretend it's "traditional."

This system would have a better chance of perpetuating itself (not that I want to see that, but) if it really were traditional enough to the point that sizeable communities of that culture existed in given locales.

Under that scenario, when the girl moved to be with the new husband, EITHER she'd still be in her own town and able to visit constantly with her actual sisters and have them to help out, OR she would have moved far away but to another community with the same culture, so that she could meet new women friends (they would not be threatening because they'd all share the same culture) and build up a similar support system of surrogate sisters there. (And thinking backward from that, heck, probably they would have had some non-sister friends when younger too, for the same reason so it wouldn't be so stark.)

Plus they'd have more chances for courting, or barring that, could come up with a system of matchmakers (which would likely be how people would move between communities).

As it is though, each family is a lone outpost in the middle of nowhere surrounded by either nothing at all or out-group people (or most likely, sparsely populated small towns where all the other few people are out-group people) so yeah, as the original post says, it's gotta be hell for those who move out.

...which kinda makes me wonder how the newlywed NR-Anna Maxwell is doing. Though maybe she can hang out with Sarah?

I suppose the Duggar who outmarries a Bates might be able to get some support and surrogate sisterhood from the other Bates girls? Maybe?

I think this is the reason for the the Smorton/Sanders/Kendalls success so far. They live on those compounds where the new DIL/SILs can hang out with their friends.

[Feberin]

I also think the period of no activity especially for those who don't have many younger siblings. You live a life where lighting scented candles and reading make up the bulk of your day. Then the babies start coming and in some cases (Kristina) come in rapid sucession. And in two years you've gone from being able to lay around doing the basic household chores everyone does and perhaps some extra cooking to being overwhelmed with little ones.

[fundiefan]

I also think the period of no activity especially for those who don't have many younger siblings. You live a life where lighting scented candles and reading make up the bulk of your day. Then the babies start coming and in some cases (Kristina) come in rapid sucession. And in two years you've gone from being able to lay around doing the basic household chores everyone does and perhaps some extra cooking to being overwhelmed with little ones.

To me, that would be hell. Really. Major change takes time to adjust to. To go, as your example Kristina did, in just over two years from SAHD to wife to mother of one to mother of three...holy hell. How is it even possible to stay emotionally balanced and healthy under those circumstances?

I never had kids, and I didn't get married until I was 30 and we lived in sin for 18 months before marriage and it was STILL a huge adjustment to become a wife. Marriage is hard fucking work, on both parts, and it does not sustain itself even if your god is at the center of and reason for everything you do.

I suppose when it all happens so fast, the girls don't have the chance to question anything and by the time they come up for air and might possibly think 'wait, the hell am I doing?', it's too late; they're strapped with a bunch of kids, a needy, demanding husband who probably only got demanding because he was given everything without question to begin with. It's beyond comprehension. And, when I think of all these girls who go in starry eyed, not knowing any better, waking up one day in reality, stuck...it just makes me kind of sick, really.

[AnnoDomini]

How is it even possible to stay emotionally balanced and healthy under those circumstances?

By praying hard enough and submitting enough, of course.

[Feberin]

I never had kids, and I didn't get married until I was 30 and we lived in sin for 18 months before marriage and it was STILL a huge adjustment to become a wife. Marriage is hard fucking work, on both parts, and it does not sustain itself even if your god is at the center of and reason for everything you do.

From my experience adding a baby to a marriage is very difficult. My husband and I had a good marriage and had been together for years unlike the former SAHDs who marry after six months and get pregnant righ away. Anyways the first couple months after my son was born was tough.

[bananacat]

I wonder what would happen if the man she marries turns out to be abusive? or at least manipulative? And what if she was raped by her husband?

There's no such thing as abuse in the QF cult. Every man has the prerogative to make his wife and children obey by any means necessary. They're his possessions, after all. And if any of them steps so far out of line that even other fundies have to admit it's abuse, then of course they blame the victim and expect the wife to "be the better person" and give him as many chances as he wants to reform. (Here's a hint: abusers rarely stop abusing.)

[Rosa]

That said, the actual response (rather than the official response) depends a lot on the family and the nature of the abuse - most of the NLQ posters didn't grow up QF, so a lot of them were estranged from their families of origin by converting, even aside from the abuse.

A woman who grew up in the system might be more vulnerable than someone who grew up more egalitarian, but she might have more access to family, and would know the language to use to get some help from the church if any was available. And of course if people really love each other, they ignore the official rules - a good example is Autumn, who married so young, her parents took her back as soon as they found out he was abusing her.

[Mama Mia]

You would think, if they really wanted to support a traditional homemaker /mother role for the girls the emphasis would be on maintaining bonds and living close to the woman's family. Childbirth, parenting, breastfeeding, etc.. are much easier if the female relatives are around for support ( not universally of course, but typically ).

The men are going off in to the world anyway to a job and have those opportunities for friendships, but for the women having access to mom, grandma, sisters, aunts etc.. can be a sanity saver.

I would think they would get greater long-term buy-in for the whole QF, SAHD, SAHM, homeschool, isolationist set-up if they made the system more attractive to the women. You wouldn't want them to snap and run off and abandon the husband, when if they live near their sisters they have a 'safe' outlet.

[camdendayton]

Great analysis OP!! You got me thinking, maybe the reason Jana looks so unhappy and the rest of the J'slaves don't is that as the oldest, all the pressure to marry soon (either from herself or others) is on her while the other girls are coasting in the relative comfort of familiar surroundings. Plus if I was them, the J'slave life would have a clear appeal over the mrs. Smuggar life!

You would think, if they really wanted to support a traditional homemaker /mother role for the girls the emphasis would be on maintaining bonds and living close to the woman's family. Childbirth, parenting, breastfeeding, etc.. are much easier if the female relatives are around for support ( not universally of course, but typically ).

The men are going off in to the world anyway to a job and have those opportunities for friendships, but for the women having access to mom, grandma, sisters, aunts etc.. can be a sanity saver.

I would think they would get greater long-term buy-in for the whole QF, SAHD, SAHM, homeschool, isolationist set-up if they made the system more attractive to the women. You wouldn't want them to snap and run off and abandon the husband, when if they live near their sisters they have a 'safe' outlet.

Agreed. I think the reason they prefer to stay closer to the husbands family is that the man is to have established some sort of small business before marriage. (making this another reason that's a totally awesome standard to set...)