Documented care of children in a "pro life" country

[longskirtlotsakids]

This is a spinoff of the enraging thread perpetuated by Jericho. As you know, the thread was based on Jericho's belief that fertilized eggs are people, birth control pills are like machine guns, women that terminate pregnancies are Charles Manson. Etc.

So, this is a link to one of the bravest spokespeople on the treatment of children in a "pro-life" country, Ireland. Where Believe me, EVERYONE is up in your lady part business. WHen my mom went to college you could get expelled if someone spread a *rumor* that you were having sex. Get caught with birth control, you were expelled, excommunicated, and most likely beaten into a pulp after the priest got done railing on your family in Mass.

I just think this link detailing the level of child mistreatment in Ireland's childrens homes would be a good example of the kind of world jericho would see here if his/her wishes regarding reproductive law were carried out.

http://www.paddydoyle.com/a-history-of-neglect/

One of the Teosaich's statements- that I think Jericho needs to consider- is his statement that IRELAND failed these children by allowing the Church to care for them. Once the government took over fostering and care for needy children, the quality of life- meaning death rates, child abuse rates, and entry into foster care plummeted.

If you feel like crying, here's the list of some women and children lost to the Magdalene Laundries. The Magdalene Laundries were basically concentration camps where "immoral" women and children were committed to redeem for their sins. (To be an immoral child, you only need be a victim of sexual abuse)

http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/name.htm

[FloraDoraDolly]

For another example, read anything about the childhood of Irish singer Sinead O'Connor.

[Lily]

My gran's talked about this many times. I had no idea, it's so well hidden. She says that despite Ireland's increasingly positive reputation over the years, the veneer of functionality is very thin and there's still massive social problems, most stemming from the Church's stranglehold on the country. She stopped attending church about 5 years ago, and ever since, even til today, she has people physically come to her house and ask her why she wasn't in church, every week, like clockwork. People are basically thrown out like garbage if they don't fit a very, very narrow ideal of what is acceptable.

The church really does take the place of government in a lot of ways there, and they've created a police state.

It's what we're looking at in America if the religious right isn't stopped. They want us to be Ireland and more. It's not a pleasant future for the rest of us.

[Maul the Koala]

I posted about Romania in that thread as well. The 1966 Decree in Romania outlawed contraceptives, abortion AND sex education. Women were checked constantly for signs of a pregnancy and miscarriages were treated as suspicious. If a woman didn't have a child by a certain age she was taxed anywhere from 10-30% of her income. Romanian orphanages were horrible, horrible places to end up.

Some links

http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_text ... nthood.htm

http://www.demogr.mpg.de/Papers/worksho ... aper25.pdf (page 11) has some great resources

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/crimi ... usescu.htm

http://www.worldvision.ca/ContentArchiv ... nages.aspx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4630855.stm

A quick search on Google shows the conditions of Romanian orphanages

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sugex ... a=N&tab=wi

This is totally a place I want to get advice from on how to make laws. Really.

[jenny_islander]

The part that makes my stomach churn is the image of children who have been betrayed by people they trust going to the authorities for help and being disappeared for it. I was five when the man who was doing that to me died. If I had told, would I have gone to a Magdalen laundry? What would have happened to him?

[CanadianHippie]

If you feel like crying, here's the list of some women and children lost to the Magdalene Laundries. The Magdalene Laundries were basically concentration camps where "immoral" women and children were committed to redeem for their sins. (To be an immoral child, you only need be a victim of sexual abuse)

http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/name.htm

There is actually a movie (fictional) called The Magdalene Sisters about that, it's a good movie.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I remember when the horrors of the Romanian orphanages were first publicized. Those kids looked exactly like the photos I've seen of prisoners in Auschwitz. A lot of people went over there and adopted the kids in the early 1990s, but last I heard international adoptions have been banned there, as they have been in most places.

The Romanian orphans were not the result of a pro-life religious society. This was one of the many evils of communism.

I posted about Romania in that thread as well. The 1966 Decree in Romania outlawed contraceptives, abortion AND sex education. Women were checked constantly for signs of a pregnancy and miscarriages were treated as suspicious. If a woman didn't have a child by a certain age she was taxed anywhere from 10-30% of her income. Romanian orphanages were horrible, horrible places to end up.

Some links

http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_text ... nthood.htm

http://www.demogr.mpg.de/Papers/worksho ... aper25.pdf (page 11) has some great resources

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/crimi ... usescu.htm

http://www.worldvision.ca/ContentArchiv ... nages.aspx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4630855.stm

A quick search on Google shows the conditions of Romanian orphanages

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sugex ... a=N&tab=wi

This is totally a place I want to get advice from on how to make laws. Really.

[Constance Vigilance]

I rejected Irish Catholicism utterly and completely when I was in my teens, in part because of the likes of this, and the shite that was heaped on me (including by my own family) was remarkable.

It is getting better out there, but I would rather be dead than be a woman in 20th century Ireland. Aside from the abuse of children and unmarried women, there was also the staggeringly high domestic abuse rate. Which women had to just put up with, because divorce is a terrible sin donchaknow. (Beating women? Fine). I read about one woman who left her alcoholic husband after the third time he'd nearly beaten her to death and asked for a divorce, and the Church/legal system (one and the same) proclaimed HER an unfit mother for asking for a divorce, and supported the father in NEVER ALLOWING HER TO SEE THE CHILDREN AGAIN unless she agreed to go back to him. This was in the 70s. There was no appeal, because the Church was the State was her husband was her owner.

That's what life in a "pro-life" country looks like, where women and their reproductive organs belong to men. I don't think most of the anti-choicers have any idea what they're actually advocating for.

[alba]

There was a thing in The Guardian a while ago about Irish women who went to the UK (most likely Northern Ireland, I would think) for abortions because they weren't allowed them in Ireland. At least one of them would have died without an abortion and I think all of the abortions were more dangerous than they needed to have been because of the delays inherent in having to go to another country to get an abortion.

This is enough to make me never, ever want to live in Ireland.

[BravaAmica]

There was a thing in The Guardian a while ago about Irish women who went to the UK (most likely Northern Ireland, I would think) for abortions because they weren't allowed them in Ireland. At least one of them would have died without an abortion and I think all of the abortions were more dangerous than they needed to have been because of the delays inherent in having to go to another country to get an abortion.

This is enough to make me never, ever want to live in Ireland.

Actually, women go to England for abortions. Northern Ireland doesn't allow abortions. (At lest that was the case when I lived there 10 years ago. England, France and The Netherlands were where women went for abortions.)

It was awful. Women had to travel for abortions, even if they needed them to save their lives. Of course, now there's a law where a woman won't go to jail if he has an abortion in another country.

[Constance Vigilance]

Yeah, abortions aren't legal in NI unless you are basically going to die, and your indivudal doctor gets to decide whether to offer it. It's a delightfully patriarchal clusterfuck as well.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

There was a thing in The Guardian a while ago about Irish women who went to the UK (most likely Northern Ireland, I would think) for abortions because they weren't allowed them in Ireland. At least one of them would have died without an abortion and I think all of the abortions were more dangerous than they needed to have been because of the delays inherent in having to go to another country to get an abortion.

This is enough to make me never, ever want to live in Ireland.

I know a 100% Irish catholic homeschooling family, and one of their daughters did study abroad in Ireland for a semester of college. From what I heard from the family, Ireland not only has this veneer of Catholicism covering up all the shit (though this family won't admit to it), they said that the country is in serious trouble because of how many women were promiscuous and dressed skankily and things like that. I don't know how true it is, but that's what they said on FB.

They seemed to be mourning the Ireland that used to be.

[Constance Vigilance]

I know a 100% Irish catholic homeschooling family, and one of their daughters did study abroad in Ireland for a semester of college. From what I heard from the family, Ireland not only has this veneer of Catholicism covering up all the shit (though this family won't admit to it), they said that the country is in serious trouble because of how many women were promiscuous and dressed skankily and things like that. I don't know how true it is, but that's what they said on FB.

They seemed to be mourning the Ireland that used to be.

I'm afraid I can't even start on the idea that women owning their own sexuality is what's wrong with Ireland, or that things were better before. I will step away.

[devilsadvocate]

This is not just a problem of pro-life or anti-birth control societies. China's orphanages also had some problems with neglected children in the recent past (apparently the situation is supposed to be better now, but knowing that the Chinese govt is not always forthcoming, I am skeptical of that).

Here's an example of what I am talking about, an article that talks about "the dying rooms" in Chinese orphanages where children with problems like uncorrected cleft palates were left alone to die:

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/ ... orphan.htm

I am in favor of population control and birth control, but I do not think that it is fair to say that anyone who is against abortion or has philosophical problems with birth control (even though I disagree with them) condones child abuse and neglect.

[Constance Vigilance]

This is not just a problem of pro-life or anti-birth control societies. China's orphanages also had some problems with neglected children in the recent past (apparently the situation is supposed to be better now, but knowing that the Chinese govt is not always forthcoming, I am skeptical of that).

Yeah, this is just the equally-horrible mirror image of a "pro-life" country. The common denominator is men/the state owning women's bodies. Never ends well.

[Maul the Koala]

The Romanian orphans were not the result of a pro-life religious society. This was one of the many evils of communism.

Even so, women dying from botched abortions and children being orphaned is the result of a 'pro-life' society. We're not necessarily just talking religious here. The choice was taken out of the hands of the women. Much the same in Ireland but with different reasoning behind it.

[dairyfreelife]

Yeah, this is just the equally-horrible mirror image of a "pro-life" country. The common denominator is men/the state owning women's bodies. Never ends well.

This. Also, anyone here ever read Angela's Ashes? Most Christian fundies we talk about would not like it as it shows some harsh realities to their visions of the perfect world.

[ADoyle90815]

This. Also, anyone here ever read Angela's Ashes? Most Christian fundies we talk about would not like it as it shows some harsh realities to their visions of the perfect world.

I've read that book, and I can imagine that fundies we talk about wouldn't like it since it's so grim.

[Trillian]

Angela's Ashes sums up beautifully how fucked up Ireland is. Get your Rosaries off my Ovaries! Here is Australia it isn't so bad - we've never had the massive influence of religion that other countries have had and the half wits who are advocating for Pro Life laws are basically shouted down in Parliament because they are just bat-shit crazy anyway. But anything that infringes on womens rights to bodily autonomy is NEVER good!

[treemom]

Remind me who that blogger is that loves zuzuz and latisha sawyers and is Ireland. She post ant-choice stuff all the time and I always want to point out the issues in NI and things like the magdalene laundries.

[Nancy Drew]

I went to Ireland earlier this year, and I enjoyed my time there. However there were a lot of homeless people begging for money, and there's still a lot of hostility between the catholics/protestants. I was surprised by the bums, until my sister told me that Ireland and Greece are currently some of the top nations in financial debt, along with the states of course. All I've seen is Dublin though, so my view is pretty limited. I had no idea you had to go to England to get an abortion in the UK area. That just seems insane to me. While I LOVE the UK, and Ireland, it did make me appreciate more of the freedoms we have here in the states. One of those freedoms being 24 hour fast food, which was difficult to find in most of the cities we visited.

[Cassandra]

Remind me who that blogger is that loves zuzuz and latisha sawyers and is Ireland. She post ant-choice stuff all the time and I always want to point out the issues in NI and things like the magdalene laundries.

HeartsDesire??

If that is her, her baby also recently came down with the mumps...

[Maul the Koala]

Angela's Ashes sums up beautifully how fucked up Ireland is. Get your Rosaries off my Ovaries!

This made me laugh... then cry a bit. I'm in Canada and Ireland is really romanticized here. I know a significant amount of people who have immigrated to Ireland and they weren't expecting the Very Catholic country feel. It was the same when I was living in Italy. People in my program weren't expecting old school 50s style attitudes with a Catholic grip on the entire country (except for Berlusconi would could bang as may underage and barely legal women that he wanted, but it took an economic crisis to get him booted from power).

It's also fascinating to me because with the EU economic crisis a lot of Irish citizens are moving up to Northern Ireland, or at least I kept on running into Irish citizens all over the place in Derry and Belfast earlier this year! In some places in the Republic there's some pretty bad blood towards those from NI. It's at the point my friends (in the Republic) who have Irish significant others won't come see me when I'm in Belfast precisely because of the bad blood. So I found it a bit surprising.

[treemom]

HeartsDesire??

If that is her, her baby also recently came down with the mumps...

That is here. Usurprising since she was super antivax

[alba]

Actually, women go to England for abortions. Northern Ireland doesn't allow abortions. (At lest that was the case when I lived there 10 years ago. England, France and The Netherlands were where women went for abortions.)

It was awful. Women had to travel for abortions, even if they needed them to save their lives. Of course, now there's a law where a woman won't go to jail if he has an abortion in another country.

I didn't know that. I suppose I assumed that because abortion is legal in the rest of the UK it would be legal in NI. I think you need to be referred by two separate doctors, but they can refer you on just about any grounds; I think the law states that abortion is OK if carrying the pregnancy to term would harm the physical or mental health of the woman, the fetus, or any existing children the woman might have.

Ah, according to Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know it's not the most accurate) the 1967 Act permitted abortion, which I described above, doesn't apply to NI, presumably because of Christianity's hold there. Remind me never to live in Northern Ireland, either ;)

Yeah, this is just the equally-horrible mirror image of a "pro-life" country. The common denominator is men/the state owning women's bodies. Never ends well.

QFT. No one should be allowed to decide anything about a woman's reproductive organs but herself alone.

It's also fascinating to me because with the EU economic crisis a lot of Irish citizens are moving up to Northern Ireland, or at least I kept on running into Irish citizens all over the place in Derry and Belfast earlier this year! In some places in the Republic there's some pretty bad blood towards those from NI. It's at the point my friends (in the Republic) who have Irish significant others won't come see me when I'm in Belfast precisely because of the bad blood. So I found it a bit surprising.

Are you sure they're from the ROI originally? I'm pretty sure that people in Northern Ireland can choose British, Irish or joint citizenship.