Question about BC methods... Fundies?

[VeraAnne]

can see (although I do not agree) that some people can feel that the implanted embryo is a potential person and must be protected by law. I cannot see how a free floating zygote is a human being at all.

In any case, hormonal contraception is no more a chemical abortion than a case of a sexual encounter during a woman's fertile period that does not result in pregnancy is a spiritual abortion.

This is very simple. A zygote is a human being because a new, unique human life forms at conception. There is no question on the science of this. We very clearly know the exact moment (amphimixixis) when a new life is formed from the male and female gametes. In fact, this is the only logical point in which to say that a new human being has been formed, as all other points are simply markers in the continual line of growth and development.

The location of the new human life is immaterial to it's status as a memeber of our species.

[Austin]

This is very simple. A zygote is a human being because a new, unique human life forms at conception. There is no question on the science of this. We very clearly know the exact moment (amphimixixis) when a new life is formed from the male and female gametes. In fact, this is the only logical point in which to say that a new human being has been formed, as all other points are simply markers in the continual line of growth and development.

The location of the new human life is immaterial to it's status as a memeber of our species.

You probably don't need to be so pedantic and condescending with FlorenceHamilton. She's a physician.

But on a positive note, I am glad to see that you're an evolutionist!

[ilovetchotchkes]

This is very simple. A zygote is a human being because a new, unique human life forms at conception. There is no question on the science of this. We very clearly know the exact moment (amphimixixis) when a new life is formed from the male and female gametes. In fact, this is the only logical point in which to say that a new human being has been formed, as all other points are simply markers in the continual line of growth and development.

The location of the new human life is immaterial to it's status as a memeber of our species.

This is dangerous thinking though. If a zygote is a human being, why don't women who have miscarriages, get to take the remains to a funeral home? IIRC that only happens once the fetus is viable.

And where do you draw the line? What if a woman needs medication that could potentially harm the baby in order for her to live?

[emmiedahl]

According to my biology textbook, a living thing must do all of the following in order to considered alive.

1. Maintain its boundaries

2. Movement

3. Ability to respond to stimuli

4. Digestion

5. Metabolism

6. Excretion

7. Reproduction

8. Growth

9. Exhibit homeostastis

10. Capacity to evolve

A newly fertilized cell does not do all of these.

[maybeizfundie]

VeraAnne, you and I are on the same page, and I like the way you put that, but do you have a source? I know I have read that before but all I'm getting at the moment is articles from babycenter and psychology today and some prolife sites none of which seem like they'd be great citations.

As to the miscarriage question, I'm guessing VeraAnne is arguing about life in terms of biology, rather than beliefs about when that life gains personhood and all it's accompanying privelages (like burial upon death).

[Guest Anonymous]

This is very simple. A zygote is a human being because a new, unique human life forms at conception. There is no question on the science of this. We very clearly know the exact moment (amphimixixis) when a new life is formed from the male and female gametes. In fact, this is the only logical point in which to say that a new human being has been formed, as all other points are simply markers in the continual line of growth and development.

The location of the new human life is immaterial to it's status as a memeber of our species.

An egg is not a chicken and a zygote is not a human being.

If you truly believe that a zygote is a human being then I suggest you get yourself to an IVF clinic and start breaking all of those wrongfully imprisoned humans out of their frozen jail cells.

[FlorenceHamilton]

The location is completely material. A floating zygote cannot become a person. An implanted embryo can. The embryo is, however a parasite and as such, the host may discard it...sometimes willfully, other times by nature.

[prairiemuffin]

If you truly believe that a zygote is a human being then I suggest you get yourself to an IVF clinic and start breaking all of those wrongfully imprisoned humans out of their frozen jail cells.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[VeraAnne]

This is dangerous thinking though. If a zygote is a human being, why don't women who have miscarriages, get to take the remains to a funeral home? IIRC that only happens once the fetus is viable.

And where do you draw the line? What if a woman needs medication that could potentially harm the baby in order for her to live?

A lot of women would like to have some sort of legal recognition for their children's deaths, but outside of a few states that sort of recognition only comes after 20 weeks. I finally had my last physical miscarriage at over 14 weeks, but the baby had passed away weeks earlier. It was very surreal walking away from my surgery and being left with nothing at all to remember the life that I had carried. I think it mostly has to do with the fact that depending on how far along a woman is, there isn't much physically to recover. I have a lot of friends who have passed their children at home at 8-12 weeks and have been left really hurt/confused/upset that they just didn't know what to do with their baby. Most had a burial at home.

If a woman needs to take a drug to live, even in it will kill her child, she should take the drug (or deliver the baby early or have it removed in the case of ectopic pregnancy). If she needs it for health reasons, but it will kill the child, I think that the doctors need to make very sure that it is the only possible treatment option, but she should take the medicine if not taking it will greatly impact her own health.

Basically, I am a fan of the two patient philosophy with pregnancy. You have 2 patients, and you try to do what you can get them both through to the end safely. If that can't happen, you try to save the mother. I've actually been in the situation with my 1st son because my water ruptured at 23 weeks and I was a constant threat of developing a uterine infection. If it had happened when he was likely to die, we would have delivered anyway. Thankfully, I didn't start showing infection signs until 30 weeks, and he is now a happy 6 year old :)

[pomology]

An egg is not a chicken and a zygote is not a human being.

If you truly believe that a zygote is a human being then I suggest you get yourself to an IVF clinic and start breaking all of those wrongfully imprisoned humans out of their frozen jail cells.

Exactly. If a fertilized egg isn't inside a womb, you can wait until the end of the universe, but it will never turn into a human being. Thus, it is not remotely the same thing as a human being.

[VeraAnne]

The location is completely material. A floating zygote cannot become a person.

Of course it can, if it is allowed to move to the next developmental stage. Hormonal birth control can block this from happening, hence the reason why some object to its use.

[VeraAnne]

An egg is not a chicken and a zygote is not a human being.

If you truly believe that a zygote is a human being then I suggest you get yourself to an IVF clinic and start breaking all of those wrongfully imprisoned humans out of their frozen jail cells.

If the egg has been fertilized, it absolutely is a chicken(or rather contains the chicken), albeit at the early stage of development.

I am opposed to IVF if zygotes are frozen indefinitely or discarded. I am in favor of embryo adoption and donation.

[ilovetchotchkes]

VeraAnne, you and I are on the same page, and I like the way you put that, but do you have a source? I know I have read that before but all I'm getting at the moment is articles from babycenter and psychology today and some prolife sites none of which seem like they'd be great citations.

As to the miscarriage question, I'm guessing VeraAnne is arguing about life in terms of biology, rather than beliefs about when that life gains personhood and all it's accompanying privelages (like burial upon death).

That's a double standard then. Because it supposedly it begins at conception, then the mother who inadvertantly has an alcoholic drink without knowing she has conceived could be doing harm. Are you folks implying that all sexually active women, of child bearing age assume they are pregnant all of the time? Because that is ridiculous.

And no, a fertilized chicken egg is NOT a chicken. It has the potential to be a chicken

but it is not.

Edited because my keyboard on my phone skips letters sometimes

[VeraAnne]

1. Maintain its boundaries

2. Movement

3. Ability to respond to stimuli

4. Digestion

5. Metabolism

6. Excretion

7. Reproduction

8. Growth

9. Exhibit homeostastis

10. Capacity to evolve

It does all of these things at a cellular level. Think about it, it comes from living cells. It can't go from being alive to being not alive, to being alive again.

[emmiedahl]

In fact, this is the only logical point in which to say that a new human being has been formed, as all other points are simply markers in the continual line of growth and development.

This kind of conflicts with fact. There are many milestones which are more instrumental in the definition of a human being than simply containing human DNA. Cancer contains human DNA.

To reduce everything after conception to "markers in the continual line of growth and development" is over-simplifying to the point of being incorrect.

[emmiedahl]

It does all of these things at a cellular level. Think about it, it comes from living cells. It can't go from being alive to being not alive, to being alive again.

Actually, no, a zygote does not. It cannot digest materials, for example, or maintain homeostasis. It does not respond to stimulus the way an e coli cell, plant or animal would.

[pomology]

It does all of these things at a cellular level. Think about it, it comes from living cells. It can't go from being alive to being not alive, to being alive again.

Well, if living cells with human DNA are alive and should be protected, than I guess I'm committing murder each month when I menstruate. The cells are still alive, even if they are unfertilized. They're still a potential human if they are potentially fertilized with sperm. Just like a fertilized egg is potentially a woman if it is potentially put in a womb. Potentiality isn't reality.

[VeraAnne]

That's a double standard then. Because it supposedly it begins at conception, then the mother who inadvertantly has an alcoholic drink without knowing she has conceived could be doing harm. Are you folks implying that all sexually active women, of child bearing age assume they are pregnant all of the time? Because that is ridiculous.

And no, a fertilized chicken egg is NOT a chicken. It has the potential to be a chicken

but it is not.

Well first of all an alcoholic drink is unlikely to do much harm in the very early stages of pregnancy anyway, but I would only say that women who weren't using birth control methods be moderate in drinking in the second half of their cycles. That's pretty much the same advice given to women who are TTC, although some doctors do say no drinking at all.

As for the chicken, a fertilized chicken's egg is a chicken at the embryonic stage of development. A unique life is a continuem that begins at the moment that the male and female pronuclei fuse. Anything that happens after that point is simply another developmental marker in the lifespan of the creature.

If the embryonic chicken dies at 10 days post conception, it doesn't mean that it wasn't a chicken. It just means that it was a chicken with a short lifespan. The same goes for a zygote that fails to implant. Implantation failure doesn't mean that it wasn't a human life, just that it was a human life with a very short lifespan.

[VeraAnne]

Well, if living cells with human DNA are alive and should be protected, than I guess I'm committing murder each month when I menstruate. The cells are still alive, even if they are unfertilized. They're still a potential human if they are potentially fertilized with sperm. Just like a fertilized egg is potentially a woman if it is potentially put in a womb. Potentiality isn't reality.

No, because gametes are simply potential human beings. A zygote is an actual human being, complete with the full genetic material to grow and differentiate into an adult human. The same can not be said for a sperm or egg. Again, if a zygote dies before implantation, it simply means that the particular human's life ended very early in development. If a sperm or egg passes through the body without ever meeting it's match, it means that the cell dies without becoming a human being.

Someone else mentioned cancer, which is completely different because a cancer cell can not ever grow and develop into an adult human. It lacks that capacity.

[pomology]

No, because gametes are simply potential human beings. A zygote is an actual human being, complete with the full genetic material to grow and differentiate into an adult human. The same can not be said for a sperm or egg. Again, if a zygote dies before implantation, it simply means that the particular human's life ended very early in development. If a sperm or egg passes through the body without ever meeting it's match, it means that the cell dies without becoming a human being.

Someone else mentioned cancer, which is completely different because a cancer cell can not ever grow and develop into an adult human. It lacks that capacity.

A zygote lacks the potential to grow into a human without a womb. Refute that.

[SunnyAndrsn]

My only experiences with birth control were brief, but horrible. We tried the depo shot, and I had a LOT of side effects. Prior to that we did pull out and condoms. After the issues with depo, I was afraid to try anything else so we stuck with condoms and pulling out.

We both HATED condoms and HATED pulling out--one ruined the feeling, and one ruined the mood.

Luckily, we're infertile and don't have to worry about it anymore :-) Infertility can be very freeing !!

During our infertility treatments, I had to briefly be on the pill to regulate my cycle. I also had nasty side effects. I think that if I would have needed to be on the pill for something like endometriosis, I would have begged for a hysterectomy.

[Guest Anonymous]

And no, a fertilized chicken egg is NOT a chicken. It has the potential to be a chicken but it is not.

Exactly this. A fertilized egg is a potential chicken. If I make an omelette, it will never be a chicken. If the mother hen does not sit on it, turn it, regulate its temperature, and care for it, then it will never be a chicken. A very specific set of conditions must be met for an egg to become a chicken.

A very specific set of circumstances must be met for a zygote to become a human being, too. Unlike with the egg, though, you can't stick the zygote in a styrofoam incubator and mimic the operations that a mother hen would provide. If you accept a zygote as a human being, you have to force women to be incubators.

ETA: What pomology said.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Lissar, I love you.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Exactly this. A fertilized egg is a potential chicken. If I make an omelette, it will never be a chicken. If the mother hen does not sit on it, turn it, regulate its temperature, and care for it, then it will never be a chicken. A very specific set of conditions must be met for an egg to become a chicken.

A very specific set of circumstances must be met for a zygote to become a human being, too. Unlike with the egg, though, you can't stick the zygote in a styrofoam incubator and mimic the operations that a mother hen would provide. If you accept a zygote as a human being, you have to force women to be incubators.

This! I am not a damn incubator.

And the chemical pregnancy I lost in august is NOT the same as the zonked out toddler on my lap TYVM.

[VeraAnne]

A zygote lacks the potential to grow into a human without a womb. Refute that.

It is already a human. You can chemically block it of its ability to continue to grow and develop, but the same thing can happen post implantation as well if you take a drug to block progesterone. There are all sorts of things that are needed to maintain pregnancy, and the developing child will die if any one of those are taken away. That doesn't change the status of the child as a member of our species, however.