Harry & Meghan 9: Pretending to Be Relevant

[viii]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

We don't know that 100% in regard to the family. We know what she said. But she lied about almost everything else in the interview when she told us. 

Princess Michael of Kent wore a racist brooch to a lunch meeting with Meghan. I think that's 100% fact, personally. Whether or not somebody speculated on the skin colour of their future children - I don't know. But we do know that the brooch was worn and that's enough evidence to me. 

[louisa05]

17 minutes ago, viii said:

Princess Michael of Kent wore a racist brooch to a lunch meeting with Meghan. I think that's 100% fact, personally. Whether or not somebody speculated on the skin colour of their future children - I don't know. But we do know that the brooch was worn and that's enough evidence to me. 

One incident which may or may not have been directed at Meghan. From an extended-extended family member. Literally the wife of her husband's grandmother's cousin.  The woman has long been known to have racist tendencies and probably would have worn the brooch regardless of who was attending the lunch. It also was not a "lunch meeting with Meghan". It was the Queen's annual pre-Christmas lunch that includes both close family (children and grandchildren) and the entire extended family that is not invited to Sandringham for the holidays. It is entirely possible that Meghan never even saw the brooch or spoke to the wearer.  

Harry told a completely different baby skin color story than Meghan did. Forgive me for not believing either of them. If it was so traumatizing, you'd think they would both remember the exact details. 

[viii]

Yeah, I'm not worried about the skin color story because it's been told multiple times in multiple ways so I don't know how true any of it is. However, we do know that a racist brooch was worn and we do know that Prince Philip said MANY racist remarks when he was alive, and we know that Harry has said and done racist things. Racism is a real issue in the BRF and I'm just not sure why anyone bothers spending time arguing against it when it's so obvious. 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, viii said:

Yeah, I'm not worried about the skin color story because it's been told multiple times in multiple ways so I don't know how true any of it is. However, we do know that a racist brooch was worn and we do know that Prince Philip said MANY racist remarks when he was alive, and we know that Harry has said and done racist things. Racism is a real issue in the BRF and I'm just not sure why anyone bothers spending time arguing against it when it's so obvious. 

I don’t think anyone has been arguing that racism isn’t “a real issue in the BRF.”  For my part, the argument has been simply that I am not convinced that Meghan’s problems with the BRF were primarily (or at least demonstrably) due to racism.

Racism is an issue in many families, especially among older members of the family.  Let us agree that there was racism in the BRF, which so far no one here has denied.

Was it mainly racism that made Meghan unhappy?  I don’t know. If she thought that was it, then that is “her truth.”  From the outside, I suspect there were many different things contributing to her dissatisfaction, and I don’t think it is productive to blame it all on “racism.”

If you want to blame it on racism, that’s fine. 

[viii]

I don’t want to blame it all on racism, I just don’t think it’s our place to say we shouldn’t fixate on it. That’s all. 

[Jackie3]

5 hours ago, viii said:

I don’t want to blame it all on racism, I just don’t think it’s our place to say we shouldn’t fixate on it. That’s all. 

There are people so fragile they want to shut down discussions of racism. They normalize it by calling racism "insensitive." They are generally the ones who want to maintain the current power structure, because it benefits them.  Racism is not directed at them., so why talk about it?

Edited June 24, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:02 PM, EmCatlyn said:

I don’t see wearing the “blackamoor brooch” as micro-aggression.  I see it as insensitivity.

Here's an example of Blackamoor style that you call "insensitive."  She wore this style on her very first meeting with Meghan. FYI, Blackamoor style art depicts a black skinned person as a slave or a servant. 

It's great that you, a white person, feel another white lady didn't mean to be racist.

Would you wear this out in public? When meeting a new Black member of the family? 

[Hoipolloi: Image of of racist jewelry hidden behind spoiler]

Spoiler

 

Quote

 I don’t think Princess Michael of Kent wore the brooch as a gesture aimed at Meghan or anyone else.  I think she wore it without thinking of what was depicted and how it would impact others.

She didn't know, she had no idea, it was an accident!  Great job defending her. Is it because she's a princess, or do you defend everyone who wears these brooches?

So on the day Meghan was meeting the royal family, Princess Michael "accidentally" chose this piece of jewelry. You believe it was all an accident, a big misunderstanding, and her "intent" was good. Would you feel that way if she was wearing a caricature of a Jew when visiting a temple?

Why would she even own such an offensive piece of jewelry, gift or not? No one I know in the US would never wear such a thing at any time. When called on her racism, Princess Michael gave the standard "i'm sorry you were offended" non-apology.

Quote

“The brooch was a gift and has been worn many times before,” a representative for Princess Michael tells PEOPLE in a statement. “Princess Michael is very sorry and distressed that it has caused offense.”

1. I didn't buy it, someone gave it to me!

2. I've worn it before and you never said anything!

3. Are you offended? I'm sorry. I feel terrible!

She tried to repair the PR damage by calling Africans "adorable." She added this about biracial Africans:

Quote

“I even pretended years ago to be an African, a half-caste African, but because of my light eyes I did not get away with it, but I dyed my hair black,”

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by hoipolloi
Image of offensive jewelry put behind spoiler

[prayawaythefundie]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

There are people so fragile they want to shut down discussions of racism. They normalize it by calling racism "insensitive." They are generally the ones who want to maintain the current power structure, because it benefits them.  Racism is not directed at them., so why talk about it?

Not happening here at the moment. We are in the middle of a discussion on racism that is about to fill several pages on this board. Nobody is „shutting it down“. You disagree with @EmCatlyn but it‘s inaccurate to say she is refusing to discuss the topic.

 

ETA: I think it has been established that Princess Michael of Kent has said and done racist things more than once.

Edited June 24, 2022 by prayawaythefundie

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Here's an example of Blackamoor style that you call "insensitive."  She wore this style on her very first meeting with Meghan. FYI, Blackamoor style art depicts a black skinned person as a slave or a servant. 

It's great that you, a white person, feel another white lady didn't mean to be racist.

Would you wear this out in public? When meeting a new Black member of the family?

 

 

She didn't know, she had no idea, it was an accident!  Great job defending her. Is it because she's a princess, or do you defend everyone who wears these brooches?

So on the day Meghan was meeting the royal family, Princess Michael "accidentally" chose this piece of jewelry. You believe it was all an accident, a big misunderstanding, and her "intent" was good. Would you feel that way if she was wearing a caricature of a Jew when visiting a temple?

Why would she even own such an offensive piece of jewelry, gift or not? No one I know in the US would never wear such a thing at any time. When called on her racism, Princess Michael gave the standard "i'm sorry you were offended" non-apology.

1. I didn't buy it, someone gave it to me!

2. I've worn it before and you never said anything!

3. Are you offended? I'm sorry. I feel terrible!

She tried to repair the PR damage by calling Africans "adorable." She added this about biracial Africans:

 

You clearly want to quarrel.  I have already said that while the “blackamoor brooch” might have been a careless/insensitive thing, added to other examples of Princess Michael’s behavior, it is clear she is a racist.  I have not tried to “defend” her or anyone else.  Why should I?

Yes, there is racism in the British royal family.  Yes, it probably contributed to Meghan’s unhappiness. No, I don’t think all her problems were caused by racism directed at her.

     I’m done.

[AmazonGrace]

I might wear something unthinkingly because it was the first clean thing that I could find. (I don't own any brooches though, racist or otherwise. )

But I don't believe any of these royals subscribe to the random approach. They have been brought up to plan every outfit in order to make a specific impression.

[samurai_sarah]

Here's an opinion piece, pertaining to racism in the BRF, on Prince William unveiling the monument to the Windrush generation.

There are some bits I agree with and others I don't, but it does shed some light on the complicated history of racism in the UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10947595/Why-believe-Prince-William-got-badly-wrong-racism-Britain-writes-ESTHER-KRAKUE.html

[prayawaythefundie]

24 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Here's an opinion piece, pertaining to racism in the BRF, on Prince William unveiling the monument to the Windrush generation.

There are some bits I agree with and others I don't, but it does shed some light on the complicated history of racism in the UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10947595/Why-believe-Prince-William-got-badly-wrong-racism-Britain-writes-ESTHER-KRAKUE.html

Sorry but this is getting ridiculous! If he hadn‘t said anything about the racism the Windrush generation obviously were met with, he would have been shredded and now he is criticized for adressing it. He needs to modernize the monarchy but he should stick with his granny‘s nice old lady image, please. The BRF has racism issues but when one of them tries to acknoledge racism in society, that‘s not ok either.

Since I‘m white, I can only compare it with a decision I have to make as a feminist: I either demand men to take a stand OR I decide they have no say in feminist issues because they are men -  but then I can’t fault them for being silent. I can‘t have my cake and eat it. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by prayawaythefundie

[samurai_sarah]

I agree with you entirely. It's a no-win situation. And a few minutes were never going to adress all that is going on in the UK, which is somewhat different than in the US. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by samurai_sarah

[viii]

4 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yes, there is racism in the British royal family.  Yes, it probably contributed to Meghan’s unhappiness. No, I don’t think all her problems were caused by racism directed at her.

This I agree 100% with. 

[louisa05]

3 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

I might wear something unthinkingly because it was the first clean thing that I could find. (I don't own any brooches though, racist or otherwise. )

But I don't believe any of these royals subscribe to the random approach. They have been brought up to plan every outfit in order to make a specific impression.

Princess Michael married into the family and has never been a working royal. She is also not a close relative as she’s being made out to be here. In relation to Meghan, the woman is her husband’s grandmother’s cousin’s wife. There is no indication that William and Harry have ever had any relationship with her at all. She was also raised in the Sudetenland and her father was an SS officer. It’s long been known that she’s an old  racist B. If Harry had a quarter of a brain, he would have avoided introductions which would have been easy at that event. He very well may have. The event was not “a meeting with Meghan” nor was it an event for everyone to meet Meghan. I realize the Meghan loving faction has a hard time with this concept, but the family (like all families believe it or not) has their own traditions and none of them ever have or ever will revolve around Meghan. This event is an annual (except Covid) tradition for the entire extended family to gather before Christmas. Google tells me that in a normal year over 70 people are invited and attend. Meghan was not having an intimate lunch with Princess Michael.  Should she ever wear that brooch? No. Was she an ass for wearing it that day? Absolutely. But if that’s the only absolute example of the family being racist to MM, it only damns one distant in-law. 

But here’s the problem: when asked about racism from the family, Meghan NEVER mentioned this absolutely true incident. Instead we got the murky baby skin color story that Harry then told differently and the withholding of titles story. The latter is completely untrue as the policy that led to it was made before the Queen was born and the update to change it for William’s children but not Harry’s was made while he was still dating blue eyed blondes and no one had ever heard of Meghan Markle. It would seem that Harry’s however many times removed cousin’s wife’s jewelry actually had no impact on her. 

No one is denying that racism exists. But it being the reason that Meghan can never be questioned, her lies can’t be called out and no one can say “why is her jacket three sizes too big?”  is exhausting. 
 

 

[AmazonGrace]

12 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Princess Michael married into the family and has never been a working royal. She is also not a close relative as she’s being made out to be here. In relation to Meghan, the woman is her husband’s grandmother’s cousin’s wife. There is no indication that William and Harry have ever had any relationship with her at all. She was also raised in the Sudetenland and her father was an SS officer. It’s long been known that she’s an old  racist B. If Harry had a quarter of a brain, he would have avoided introductions which would have been easy at that event. He very well may have. The event was not “a meeting with Meghan” nor was it an event for everyone to meet Meghan. I realize the Meghan loving faction has a hard time with this concept, but the family (like all families believe it or not) has their own traditions and none of them ever have or ever will revolve around Meghan. This event is an annual (except Covid) tradition for the entire extended family to gather before Christmas. Google tells me that in a normal year over 70 people are invited and attend. Meghan was not having an intimate lunch with Princess Michael.  Should she ever wear that brooch? No. Was she an ass for wearing it that day? Absolutely. But if that’s the only absolute example of the family being racist to MM, it only damns one distant in-law. 

But here’s the problem: when asked about racism from the family, Meghan NEVER mentioned this absolutely true incident. Instead we got the murky baby skin color story that Harry then told differently and the withholding of titles story. The latter is completely untrue as the policy that led to it was made before the Queen was born and the update to change it for William’s children but not Harry’s was made while he was still dating blue eyed blondes and no one had ever heard of Meghan Markle. It would seem that Harry’s however many times removed cousin’s wife’s jewelry actually had no impact on her. 

No one is denying that racism exists. But it being the reason that Meghan can never be questioned, her lies can’t be called out and no one can say “why is her jacket three sizes too big?”  is exhausting. 
 

 

Not sure how that was a response to what I said but okay. FTR  I don't much care for either Harry or Meghan, FTR. Seems to me like they knowingly burnt a lot of bridges with family and then complained that the bridges they wanted to cross were burnt.

Edited June 24, 2022 by AmazonGrace

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Princess Michael married into the family and has never been a working royal. She is also not a close relative as she’s being made out to be here. In relation to Meghan, the woman is her husband’s grandmother’s cousin’s wife. There is no indication that William and Harry have ever had any relationship with her at all. She was also raised in the Sudetenland and her father was an SS officer. It’s long been known that she’s an old  racist B. If Harry had a quarter of a brain, he would have avoided introductions which would have been easy at that event. He very well may have. The event was not “a meeting with Meghan” nor was it an event for everyone to meet Meghan. I realize the Meghan loving faction has a hard time with this concept, but the family (like all families believe it or not) has their own traditions and none of them ever have or ever will revolve around Meghan. This event is an annual (except Covid) tradition for the entire extended family to gather before Christmas. Google tells me that in a normal year over 70 people are invited and attend. Meghan was not having an intimate lunch with Princess Michael.  Should she ever wear that brooch? No. Was she an ass for wearing it that day? Absolutely. But if that’s the only absolute example of the family being racist to MM, it only damns one distant in-law. 

But here’s the problem: when asked about racism from the family, Meghan NEVER mentioned this absolutely true incident. Instead we got the murky baby skin color story that Harry then told differently and the withholding of titles story. The latter is completely untrue as the policy that led to it was made before the Queen was born and the update to change it for William’s children but not Harry’s was made while he was still dating blue eyed blondes and no one had ever heard of Meghan Markle. It would seem that Harry’s however many times removed cousin’s wife’s jewelry actually had no impact on her. 

No one is denying that racism exists. But it being the reason that Meghan can never be questioned, her lies can’t be called out and no one can say “why is her jacket three sizes too big?”  is exhausting. 
 

 

I think that’s actually an important point. I struggle with their narrative in so far, as they failed to mention the harsh racist moments that were there for the world to see. A racist comment from a close relative might hurt more than some distant relative wearing the brooch. That’s ok. But racism had a big part in their story (for some time) and they would have had the easiest time bring out shocking examples. But they never went there. Like the press. Yes, there were a handful articles that played with racist implications. But the real ugly place were the comment sections. The all time favourite of the circus monkey picture- while really bad on first glance, was way less racist if you only look at the intent, as it was more about how the whole RF are monkeys in the royal circus. Still a stupid analogy and he should have known better. So no excuse. But there are some really really racist caricatures of her out there with the very clear intent to mock/hate her for her race. They are free to mention whatever they deem important, but I could not help but wonder.

 

I agree that Meghan was and still is a victim of racist attacks. Not ok. But most examples I see talked about don’t fit into this drawer for me. I would pick out completely different incidents and I wonder why. Because if I think something is racist but the victim doesn’t- is it not? And who gets to decide what it is? Because if I see pure sexism and someone screams racism, I wonder what that means for all not BIPOC people that are subject to the same stuff. Is it a bipoc vs white perception problem? Or a US culture vs UK/Europe culture? Or am I over rationalising? It’s complicated because you can trigger someone with almost anything- so when to you brush someone off as special snowflake?

Edited June 24, 2022 by just_ordinary

[Jackie3]

23 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

But racism had a big part in their story (for some time) and they would have had the easiest time bring out shocking examples. But they never went there. Like the press

It's not that easy to trot out "shocking examples" to satisfy the public. 

One of my family members, a young BIPOC woman, experienced a lot of racism and micro-aggressions growing up. Irrational as it sounds, she feels a lot of shame about them, although she did nothing wrong. Sharing them with others is never easy.

She shares them only with people she trusts. It's not that easy to tell the press something horrible like "He said I should go back to Africa" or some such thing. 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

On 6/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, just_ordinary said:

someone screams racism

"Screams racism"? That says it all, really, about your perception of someone who is the victim of racist comments.

Kind of sounds like "She screamed rape," said by some beer-guzzling frat guy.

 

On 6/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, just_ordinary said:

so when to you brush someone off as special snowflake?

You don't, hon. 

[Jackie3]

On 6/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, just_ordinary said:

But racism had a big part in their story (for some time) and they would have had the easiest time bring out shocking examples. But they never went there.

You want to decide if the racist comments are really bad enough, or if she's just being a whiner. So you want her to share them with the public, so you can decide this. 

You feel she's maybe being a "special snowflake" (your words) about racist comments that arent' really that bad.

You want proof, it sounds like!

This is starting to sound like a meeting of a group of conservative Christians. They demand proof that racism is "bad enough" too.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Jackie3

[prayawaythefundie]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Sharing them with others is never easy.

She shares them only with people she trusts. It's not that easy to tell the press something horrible like "He said I should go back to Africa" or some such thing. 

 

That may be true for the person in your family but Harry & Meghan have shown us more than once that they are not shy about pouring out their hearts to the press. They are only shy about providing facts and evidence. And yes, when you accuse people of something severe, you should expect to be asked for some sort of evidence or at least a consistent story. 

Btw, do you realize you come across here as both very patronizing and seeing things extremely one-dimensional? You seem to think your „frailties“ from the time you were a „young person“ lie behind you and us immature people could all learn some morals & values from you. The truth is, you don‘t seem very self-reflective to me.

[Coconut Flan]

[MamaJunebug]

Halluuu!  (trying to write what I think an aristocratic Brit  sounds like)  and if I may ask:  What do all y’all* think about the semi-sudden retirement of the OB GYN who attended the delivery of Lilibet?**  

* all y’all = what I KNOW. a middle of the Midwesterner sounds like (me!)  
 

** Does anybody else think the Gruesome Twosome could have just named the sprout Lily-Beth Diana and saved QE2 some annoyance? Oh, I know … but honestly. Not an original thought between ‘em. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by MamaJunebug

[AmazonGrace]

It's not an either-or. Harry and Meghan can both be annoying people who have made questionable decisions, AND targets for racists, at the same time.

[viii]

10 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Halluuu!  (trying to write what I think an aristocratic Brit  sounds like)  and if I may ask:  What do all y’all* think about the semi-sudden retirement of the OB GYN who attended the delivery of Lilibet?**  

* all y’all = what I KNOW. a middle of the Midwesterner sounds like (me!)  
 

** Does anybody else think the Gruesome Twosome could have just named the sprout Lily-Beth Diana and saved QE2 some annoyance? Oh, I know … but honestly. Not an original thought between ‘em. 

What does a random lady’s retirement have anything to do with Harry and Meghan? Just because she assisted in the birth over a year ago? I mean, I know people hate Meghan but this is such a reach. Your arms must be sore.