(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 48: "Happy New Year to You [,Josh]... In Jail!"

[Galbin]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

They would argue with my mom (who didn’t spank) that she was going to regret not spanking.  Many of them mean well.  But you really want to shake them.

You are more charitable than I am. I just want to see anyone who hits their kid with a belt receive prison time.

My country has a lot of issues but this is one thing we get right. Hitting your kids in any way has been illegal since 2016. The American attitude towards corporal punishment is shocking to me.

[EmCatlyn]

23 minutes ago, Galbin said:

You are more charitable than I am. I just want to see anyone who hits their kid with a belt receive prison time.

My country has a lot of issues but this is one thing we get right. Hitting your kids in any way has been illegal since 2016. The American attitude towards corporal punishment is shocking to me.

Just to clarify, I am 67 years old and my mother’s arguments about spanking took place in Latin America in the 1960s.  She was unusually forward-looking on raising children. (She was not so great with adolescents, but that’s another subject.)

I think most educated people in the US today are uncomfortable with corporal punishment, and spanking is illegal in more states than it is legal.  Even in states where it is legal, there are restrictions that weren’t there 20 years ago. We are making progress, but it sometimes takes a few generations.

[Melbelle]

Begin rant...I just want to say, as a hardcore sports lover...I HATE Adrian Peterson with the fiery passion of a 1000 suns!!!!! I can't believe they allowed him to continue to play professional football!  (I mean I totally can, but I will never cheer for a single team he played for after this information was made public.)  I also despise the NFL for condoning and covering up so much of these types of behaviors.  Whether it's Peterson, or Michael Vick, or Aaron Hernandez, or Rufus knows who else, it's disgusting and I think it is actively contributing to their declining ratings, it's certainly a combination of many things leading people away from the sport, but this is definitely one of those things for me and a few others I know.  Anyways, thank you for allowing me to rant, because I occasionally do this amongst friends and I think they're all over hearing about it...End rant.

[Ms. Brightside]

7 hours ago, noseybutt said:

That said, I have to watch myself with juvenile sex offender cases with hyper-religious families because the dads are often triggering for me. The JB's of the world. Those are the ones that I have a hard time with. I only take a handful of those cases--well-spaced out-- and only from attorneys or juvenile judges that I trust.

@noseybutt thank you so much for your insights!! Your perspective on this is fascinating.

Out if curiosity, and if you’re comfortable sharing, the quote above got me thinking… what is your average caseload like in a year? I want you to say “oh the interviews take several months so I work on about 4 cases a year” but knowing how social work goes and based on what you said above, I’m sure that’s only a fraction of what you actually deal with. In my mind I want this kind of perversion to be so rare that you aren’t called that often… but I know that’s naive of me. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

10 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Who is she?  

She’s a certified therapist who does mental health and reaction videos.

10 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

100% agree. My church requires staff and volunteers to watch videos. The idea being to have policies for child protection at church as well as to recognize signs of abuse at home, and what to do about it if you notice anything off. I think people are becoming more aware.

@noseybutt my hat is off to you. I truly thank you. Such an important service, and you sound so skilled and balanced in performing it. I have no doubt your being a maternal-type woman also helps open up these offenders in a way that a man never could.

My first and last experiences working with CSA offenders were in my psychology internship at a county psych hospital nearly 40 years ago. One man, who had molested his stepdaughters, is burned into my brain. He was proud of what he'd done and told me

  Reveal hidden contents

"It wasn't abuse. I was merely playfully teasing their natural sexual desires."

🤮. I felt a door in my mind slam shut and I vowed that never again would I have anything to do with this population. I have massive respect for those who can stomach it. Instead, I have made a specialty of helping survivors recover.

 

 

I’m not sure what can be done with someone like that who takes pride in sexually assaulting a child. 
 

6 hours ago, imokit said:

Considering Jpedo is in solitary, daily contact with Anna may be the only conversation he gets.

Isn’t solitary very bad for someone’s mental health? What is Josh going to be like after this?

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

28 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Isn’t solitary very bad for someone’s mental health? What is Josh going to be like after this?

Sounds like it's not completely solitary, although he spends most of his time alone in his cell.

He won't have to be in protective custody when he hits Federal prison, although my understanding is he can request it if he's really afraid. I guess what's best depends on where he lands.

I'm having enough trouble with Covid solitary, currently living alone and working from home during this dark, dreary winter. I can't imagine what being stuck in a cell alone most of the day would be like long term. 

[Mlissmartin]

13 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Sounds like it's not completely solitary, although he spends most of his time alone in his cell.

He won't have to be in protective custody when he hits Federal prison, although my understanding is he can request it if he's really afraid. I guess what's best depends on where he lands.

I'm having enough trouble with Covid solitary, currently living alone and working from home during this dark, dreary winter. I can't imagine what being stuck in a cell alone most of the day would be like long term. 

Bet it doesn't feel as bad as those abused kids feel. I don't give a fuck about what Josh is experiencing

[noseybutt]

21 minutes ago, Ms. Brightside said:

@noseybutt thank you so much for your insights!! Your perspective on this is fascinating.

Out if curiosity, and if you’re comfortable sharing, the quote above got me thinking… what is your average caseload like in a year? I want you to say “oh the interviews take several months so I work on about 4 cases a year” but knowing how social work goes and based on what you said above, I’m sure that’s only a fraction of what you actually deal with. In my mind I want this kind of perversion to be so rare that you aren’t called that often… but I know that’s naive of me. 

I think what you are asking is what is the base rate for juvenile sex offenses? And I actually don't know the answer to that. My anecdotal experience, and this is anecdotal only, is that if you look at how many adult sex offenders a county prosecutes each year and divide that by 4, you will have a rough estimate of how many juveniles are in the system.  (As in, if your county prosecuted 100 adults, there are probably 25 juveniles with various sex offense charges. Most will be in treatment programs rather than held long term in juvenile detention facilities because treatment outcome data for juvenile sex offending is quite good.)

I would be curious if other legal people here have real data on this?

Sex offending is only about 20-25% of my caseload. During the pandemic, I haven't prioritized those cases because the courts already know that treatment outcome up through early 20's is quite good, and it's terrible after that. Because of the shortage of forensic psychologists, one of our local juvenile judges has been having the treatment providers evaluate the kids, and loosely basing her rulings off their recommendations. There are legal reasons why that is a bad idea, but it has been a practical solution. I have only accepted juvenile cases when there is suspicion that out-of-home placement may be necessary and parents are likely to resist OR there are indications of a developmental disability (autism, ID) or emerging serious mental illness. 


 

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

 

Isn’t solitary very bad for someone’s mental health? 

Yes. Especially for individuals with serious mental illness and especially psychosis (hallucinations, delusions). Also, for early stage dementia.

There is a real crisis brewing with the justice system because local jails were already the de facto state hospitals, and that has grown even worse with covid because medical resources are being triaged for the pandemic. There is not much left for mental health.

Josh probably has more protective factors than many of the other inmates (no prior mental illness, supportive family, financial resources for commissary, etc).

[Mrs. Kravitz]

6 hours ago, patsymae said:

"Generational abuse, yes, but also no motivation to break the cycle when the world cares far more about how fast you can run with a ball in your hand 🙄"

 

no motivation to break the cycle because a huge amount of people in this country don't see beating your kids with belts as abuse and don't think there is a cycle to break. Including victims who think they became decent adults because of, and not in spite of, this type of "discipline." It crosses ethnic, religious, income and even geographic lines. And there are still a ton of people who think that "today's kids" (it was also "today's kids" in the 60s, 70s, 80s...) are disrespectful, entitled, etc., etc. because nobody is beating their asses.

Most of my coworkers say things like this. Even the one who freely admits to having been a juvenile delinquent who wasn't effected by said beatings because she figured that they were worth whatever forbidden thing she had decided to do. Several of them are convinced that the reason the local schools and kids have gone so downhill in the last 30 years or so is because the state outlawed corporeal punishment. Yes, sure, it was the lack of corporeal punishment and not the superintendent funneling millions of the schools' money into his own bank accounts instead of paying bills, causing them to lose hundreds of millions in grant dollars that caused the downfall of the city's schools. 

ETA: I do have one funny story (amongst many horrifying stories) of Catholic school corporeal punishment, which could be fairly brutal back in the day. A friend of mine was taught by his parents that if someone at school hits you, you need to hit them back to show them who's boss, so when the nun spanked him in preschool, he hit her back.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Mrs. Kravitz

[SPHASH]

Not a fan of spanking.  My parents spanked me.  Didn't improve my behavior at all all it did was make me hate my parents. When your 2, 3, 4 years old you don't understand why your misbehavior is wrong.  Reminds me of Becky Bontrager who thinks a two year old is selfish when they are shy and that they should be grateful when they are a dinner guest.  My mom had the same thinking and while she is religious she wasn't even fundie lite. She just wanted to look good like Becky did.

Edited December 30, 2021 by SPHASH
Eta

[ophelia]

2 hours ago, SPHASH said:

Not a fan of spanking.  My parents spanked me.  Didn't improve my behavior at all all it did was make me hate my parents. When your 2, 3, 4 years old you don't understand why your misbehavior is wrong.  Reminds me of Becky Bontrager who thinks a two year old is selfish when they are shy and that they should be grateful when they are a dinner guest.  My mom had the same thinking and while she is religious she wasn't even fundie lite. She just wanted to look good like Becky did.

Sickening. I‘ve been reading fundie blogs and their advice on how to raise (or ‚train‘ as they call it) a child for more than 10 years now, but now that I have my own baby boy I‘m so so disgusted and actually full of rage.

 

ETA: I‘ve always been mad about this, but being a mother just added to the disgust!

Edited December 30, 2021 by ophelia

[smittykins]

I was shocked to learn that New York didn’t ban corporal punishment in public schools until 1985, the year after I graduated.

[Galbin]

11 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Just to clarify, I am 67 years old and my mother’s arguments about spanking took place in Latin America in the 1960s.  She was unusually forward-looking on raising children. (She was not so great with adolescents, but that’s another subject.)

I think most educated people in the US today are uncomfortable with corporal punishment, and spanking is illegal in more states than it is legal.  Even in states where it is legal, there are restrictions that weren’t there 20 years ago. We are making progress, but it sometimes takes a few generations.

How wonderful that it is illegal in many states and that many others are imposing restrictions on it. That has really cheered me up for the day. Currently I am reading "What Happened to you" by Dr Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey where Orpah details the completely legal but horrific physical abuse she endured as a child. So it is heartening to know that significant progress is being made on this,

[Four is Enough]

9 hours ago, Mrs. Kravitz said:

ETA: I do have one funny story (amongst many horrifying stories) of Catholic school corporeal punishment, which could be fairly brutal back in the day. A friend of mine was taught by his parents that if someone at school hits you, you need to hit them back to show them who's boss, so when the nun spanked him in preschool, he hit her back.

In my Catholic school, a nun slapped my 7th grade classmate in the face for his rudeness and talking back. He hauled off and slapped her back. Nearly got expelled.

[Howl]

42 minutes ago, smittykins said:

I was shocked to learn that New York didn’t ban corporal punishment in public schools until 1985, the year after I graduated.

Then you'll be super duper shocked that Texas still allows  corporal punishment, including in charter schools.   I'm assuming the parent has to approve, but it's pretty damned medieval.  

From Stopping Harmful Corporal Punishment Policies in Texas

Texas is one of only 19 states in the United States that still allows corporal punishment in schools (including charter schools). In Texas, corporal punishment is the "deliberate infliction of physical pain by hitting, paddling, spanking, slapping or any other physical force used as a means of discipline” (TEC, Sec.Jun 11, 2021)

[libgirl2]

29 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

In my Catholic school, a nun slapped my 7th grade classmate in the face for his rudeness and talking back. He hauled off and slapped her back. Nearly got expelled.

We had a real old school nun who used a ruler and slapped you on the hand. 

[GiggleOfGirls]

I was spanked as a child (only a couple of times were with a belt, but I was the oldest and got paddled many times…) and I resolved at a ridiculously young age, like preschool age, that I would never do that to any of my (then future hypothetical) children. 
 

And I never have hit any of my children because researching alternatives to spanking became a special interest for me as soon as I was getting close to birthing my eldest child. 
 

The other factor for me is that I’m autistic and we didn’t know I was back then so not only was I being spanked, but I couldn’t understand WHY or what I’d done. All spanking did was make me angry and try to be sneakier to avoid punishment. Also I’d just get in more trouble when I was unable to speak to tell my parents why I was being hit (they did try to explain, but childhood as an undiagnosed autistic person was so completely confusing all the time that their explanations were never sufficient).

 

I was always being told that I was “willfully disobedient” when actually I was just super confused and didn’t know what was going on. But because I had the “little professor” presentation, the adults around me assumed that I was being rebellious on purpose. It was awful. I really wish that hitting children wasn’t acceptable anywhere any more. 

[libgirl2]

I am pretty sure I was spanked as a child but I don't really remember it very much, so it might not have happened that often. I was a pretty good child. I only remember once my mom slapping me when I was a teenager and told my dad f--- you. My mother was Hispanic, I was lucky she never threw the "clancha" at me. 

I don't remember ever spanking or hitting my son. He was also well behaved and just one word got him to stop whatever he was doing. There might have been one time when he was having the worst tantrum I have ever seen him have and I had to physically carry a kicking a screaming toddler into my car. I just don't remember doing it so more than likely I didn't. And the only time he swore at me.... I ran from the room crying and he apologized. 

[Alisamer]

When I worked daycare (25 years or more ago! I feel so old!) there was no physical punishment allowed at the daycare but for some reason spanking was still allowed in schools. Seems like it should just be not allowed at all and be done with it.

I will admit to once hitting a kid. I didn't mean to. It was an after-schooler, a late elementary-age boy, and we were lining the kids up to go back indoors after playing outside. He was behind me, and he grabbed my butt. Like a groping kind of grab. Before I even realized what was happening, I'd whirled around and backhanded him on the side of his head. It was a pretty light hit (I realized what was happening and pulled it a bit as I was making contact, and he actually laughed about it), but if anyone else had seen I'd have been fired. It was a reflex I didn't even realize I had. I felt a little bad about it, but not terrible. A kid his age knows not to grab the teacher's (or anyone's!) butt, and he was deliberately provoking. If it had been a college guy in a bar I'd have done the same thing.

[Mrs. Kravitz]

Both my parents were spanked growing up, but whereas my mom's parents used their hands, my dad's dad took to using 2x4's. Yeah... So my dad was very anti-spanking when we were growing up, and my mom agreed. 

[Expectopatronus]

I was spanked, had my face slapped, was shaken etc. My mom had trouble with anger and has stated that if she hadn’t have disciplined me in this way, she would have crossed the line and abused me. I was terrified of my mom growing up. We have a good relationship now and she respects the fact that I do not use corporal punishment on my daughter. I think it’s a “when you know better, you do better” thing. In the 80’s and 90’s this was what was done. However, now there is so much research showing that spanking is harmful that I am horrified that some states still allow it. 

[noseybutt]

I had a second language teacher when I was a teen who used to say that people who resort to profanity lack imagination with their vocabularies. 

The same can be said of corporal punishment: those who spank lack imagination when it comes to nurturing and guiding children.
 

 

[Cam]

 

10 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

I had a second language teacher when I was a teen who used to say that people who resort to profanity lack imagination with their vocabularies. 

The same can be said of corporal punishment: those who spank lack imagination when it comes to nurturing and guiding children.
 

Yes, I feel the same about both language and discipline.

Once when my son was young, maybe three-ish, I gave him a smack oh the butt and it just felt so. wrong. It felt so unbalanced using that approach to discipline this beautiful little boy whom I loved so much. Starting that day, a part of me consciously changed and I learned other ways to correct behavior. In my opinion, an adult spanking a child is more about the adult having issues than about the child needing corrected. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Cam

[GiggleOfGirls]

21 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

I had a second language teacher when I was a teen who used to say that people who resort to profanity lack imagination with their vocabularies. 

The same can be said of corporal punishment: those who spank lack imagination when it comes to nurturing and guiding children.
 

 

I agree with that. Adding to it…. 
 

I think a large part of the issue is that many people simply don’t know that there are other options than corporal punishment (not as many now, thank the internet!). I’ve done gentle parenting activism online since the mid-2000s and I have always shared a lot more about alternatives to spanking than about why spanking doesn’t work (which is clear if you look at the studies). 
 

Because if you just tell people spanking is harmful and ineffective (which is true!), they often don’t have the tools to change their behavior and stop doing it. I’d see many more defensive responses when I shared “spanking is harmful” resources than when I shared information about alternatives first and then gradually moved into reasons for not spanking and why it doesn’t “work” in the long term.

 

I also want to add to my previous post that my parents were much gentler with me than their parents were with them (one of them was outright abused in a very chaotic way), but when you’re being told by your church (recommending books by Dobson, ugh) and everyone around you that the “Godly” thing to do is spank… well… it was terrible for me, but I’ve forgiven them and my mother, at least, fully supports the way I parent my children while my father respects it so we’re all good now. 

 

When your only tool is a hammer you’re going to see nails everywhere and when your only parenting tool is spanking (and you see everything else as being “permissive”) you’re going to see “willful disobedience” needing punishment everywhere. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by GiggleOfGirls
Removed a qualifier

[HeartsAFundie]

My dad went to Catholic school as a little boy in the late 40s/early 50s and when the nun asked the kids on a Monday "Who played with Protestant children over the weekend?", Dad was honest enough to answer "yes".  You see, his mom-my grandmother-was an Episcopalian-turned-Catholic so of course my dad would have played with "Protestant kids"-they were his cousins!  Anyway, for being honest about fraternizing with folks out of the religion, Dad got whacked multiple times by the nun with a ruler. 

When my dad came home for lunch, my grandmother noticed the beating marks and demanded to know what happened.  My dad explained and my grandmother promptly marched down to the school, Dad in tow, and told the nun "If you ever lay a hand on one of my kids again I will beat the living shit out of you.  Understood?"  

It never happened to my dad again...my grandparents transferred him to the public neighborhood elementary school within days of the incident.   I believe my uncle, Dad's younger brother, remained at the Catholic school but finished his time there incident-free. 

Postscript:  Ironically, my mom was also Episcopalian-she chose on her own to turn Catholic when I was 7-and when it was time for them to get married, the priest at my dad's lifelong church refused to marry them and told him "Go find yourself a nice Catholic girl".  So they found themselves another local Catholic church in which the priest looked upon interfaith marriages more liberally.  They married there in 1962 and remained loyal members of that church until it was suppressed by the bishop in the 2010s due to diocesan reorganization. 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by HeartsAFundie