Zero Population Growth

[debrand]

I followed a link from another blog that I sometimes read to this site.

booksandbairns.blogspot.com/2010/02/zpg-indeed.html

The article begins with the woman complaining about having to return Christmas gifts to a certain mall.

This is your average, upper end, wear-nice-clothes-or-you'll-look-like-a-redneck mall. The kind of place where teen girls charge outfits that cost more than my monthly food budget in a single spending spre

Okay. I guess, I can understand why this made her uncomfortable. If she doesn't have a lot of money, she might think that others are judging her. We all have our sensitivities

Three steps from the end of our vehicle, the older kids started snickering.

Directly across from our van was a small, derelict Geo, circa 1989. It had once been metallic blue-green, but was now a mostly forgotten shade of tired dirt brown and road film grey. The tires were bald. The back taillight was missing on the driver's side, and had been artfully replaced with a series of red bumper stickers. The area around the sagging tailpipe was sooty with discharge

Wait. She feels uncomfortable because people might look down on her but she doesn't correct her children for sniggering at someone's car. Very, very hypocritical

She notices that the car's bumper stickers say:

REPRODUCE RESPONSIBLY! 2 IS ENOUGH!

and

ZERO POPULATION GROWTH! ENSURE THAT WE CAN ALL EAT!

Her seven children respond:

How is telling someone else how many kids to have o.k. in a free country?"

"That's like China."

"How rude!"

Where I live it is not unusual to see religious billboards. I'm glad that we have freedom of speech and don't get angered by the signs. Sometimes, I admit, I roll my eyes at the Jesus Saves signs but those churches have a right to express their views the same as I do. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that I will always feel comfortable.

The car owner was not forcing anyone to have only two children. He or she was stating their opinion. That is NOTHING like China. Her family is free to have as many children as they wish and to express their disagreement with the car owner's views.

Others were a bit more thoughtful--the questions that start a true intellectual dialogue:

"But what happens if everyone starts doing that and all of the older people keep getting older, and there are fewer young people to support them?"

"Does that work with our kind of government?"

"What if you end up with more males than females, or more females than males?"

"If our country decided to do that, and no other country did, wouldn't we eventually be so weak that we'd be kind of picked off?"

"Why are they concerned about people not having enough food when we're standing on acres and acres of what used to be farmland that's now a bunch of coffee shops and Apple stores?"

The mother is grateful that her children don't just parrot back what she has taught them. But they are parroting back what she taught them. They are just doing so in question form.

to answer the kids questions. Not everyone will have only two kids. The American government does not force women to have abortions. They did in the past though. Poor women and minority women were forced to be sterilized. As far as I know that doesn't happen today.(NC apologized for forcing women to undergo sterilizations until the sixties)

Because Americans have a choice, families will continue to decide how many children-if any-to have. Advocates for both zero population growth and quiverful lifestyles can try to convince others to follow their beliefs. But no one is required to follow either side. That is called freedom. We can decide for ourselves.

I am not certain what the child is asking would work with our government. If she means every couple choosing to have two kids or less. Sure. Why not? If she means being forced to have a small family. The bumper stickers said nothing about being forced

What does ZPG have to do with the sex of a baby?

Considering the size of our military arsenal, I doubt that we are going to be picked off anytime soon. But again, this is a free country, no matter how popular having two or less kids might become, a few people would buck the trend and have more children. I don't think that we have much too worry about.

The last question someone else can answer

[Kitten]

The only question I can provide a reasonable answer to is the one about ZPG and male/female ratios. Sadly, most people, even in a society that doesn't expect a son to support his parents in theri old age, still want boys, or at the very least, one of each. I think they believe that people who find out they're pregnant with girls will abort or abandon them, a la China. China does have an immense problem coming up now, with a highly-skewed population that is predominantly male, thanks to their "one child" policy that was rigidly enforced for many years.

Of course, the reality is the US does not restrict the number of children, so parents are free to keep trying for a boy, if they want. But the argument that people will abort based on sex has been around for as long as abortion has been legal, even though there is no evidence that this is any kind of a trend at any level whatsoever.

[emmiedahl]

In some areas with ZPG policies, there are a disproportionate number of males because the parents abort or abandon girls. If they can only have one, they are going to get that boy. It is one of the reasons that orphanages in China are full of girls.

The rest of it is just stupid. No one is forcing them to have only X amount of children, so comparing us to China is idiotic. And China had to do that because they had a period when they were forced *to* have children because Mao thought it would be cool for some reason, and suddenly there were all these people in an already poor nation. It was swinging the pendulum back the other way.

I obviously am not a ZPG person. I think we should reduce societal pressure to have children and let people decide how many to have. Many people have children just because it is *what you do*. Those people would not have children if it weren't for just the weirdness that is America.

European countries are seeing ZPG or even NPG without any harsh government policies. It is a fact of post-Christian societies: many people will choose not to have children, which allows the people who really love being parents to breed like bunnies if they are so inclined.

[maybeizfundie]

Maybe I'm just reading it differently. I don't see the problem with expressing annoyance at a bumper sticker one finds disagreeable. If it's OK to have the bumber sticker, it's also OK to express annoyance at it. :)

What I understood was that the children were asking *what if* our government decided to make and enforce some sort of ZPG policy. I'm not seeing them comparing the US *currently* to China, nor thinking that ZPG is policy now. Just wondering how it would work if ZPG folks saw their ideals turned into legally enforcible policy. Could it happen with our type of government, IOW?

The gender reference is most likely with regards to China. And it is a big problem there. Not only are orphanages full of girls, but female offspring are aborted, abandoned, and exposed to die as well. Something similar happens in India in some areas, where either economic or social pressure to have fewer children combines with gender favoritism (for boys, in that case).

I don't think it's likely to happen that way in the US, even were some awful one-child policy to be enacted, because we don't have the same entrenched one-gender favoritism when it comes to children. Individuals might favor one over the other, and even abort the "wrong" gender, but it wouldn't result in the same massive population skewing that happened in China, because the "favored" gender is not always "boy" here and it's not socially and economically necessary to have a boy.

[debrand]

Maybe I'm just reading it differently. I don't see the problem with expressing annoyance at a bumper sticker one finds disagreeable. If it's OK to have the bumber sticker, it's also OK to express annoyance at it. :)

.

I have no problem with the children expressing annoyance either. They can express any opinion that they want.

The children did say:

That's like China

."

Expressing your opinion with a bumper sticker(or disagreeing with that bumper sticker) is nothing like China.

[emmiedahl]

Well, they can express disagreement, and we can do so as well. I don't like using people in the public as negative lessons PERIOD. How are your children supposed to learn to respect others if you are doing that?

I don't point out fundies and say, look how oppressed they are! I don't point out Choose the Right stickers and snark to my babies about how right I think the LDS church is. I don't think being judgmental is one of my better features lol. And children do not understand the whole concept of time and place for things. They will bust out what they have been taught when it is the most inconvenient and embarrassing.

These kids are going to meet someone who is from a family of two and be all, oh noez! ZPG! You fascist!

[Spider Burps]

It seems odd to me that children are concerned about population growth and/or how many kids one should have. When I was a kid, I didn't give anything like that a single thought! I guess you think about different things when you grow up constantly hearing about how bajillions of children are a blessing.

On a related note, in my town there is a sticker on one of the steps on one of the sets of stairs leading up to the platform at the train station that says "TALK ABOUT OVERPOPULATION". I wonder what that family would have to say about it? Heh.

[keeperrox]

The ridiculous fundie mindset of MOAR BAYBEEZ, coupled with the SOTDRT make me think of that horrible movie Idiocracy. Am I the only one who is a bit afraid that it might not be too far off from the possible future?

[debrand]

This is my hope for my children too - that they think for themselves and wrestle with the tough questions. That's awesome. I was thinking China too when I read the first bumper sticker. We live in Germany - it's quite fun to run around with 4 kids, turns a lot of heads

this is a comment from Joy.

Personally, I only thought that the bumper sticker belonged to a person who thinks that we should all two or less children. I don't assume that he or she has any connection to China.

[maybeizfundie]

Again, I'm just reading differently, probably.

My understanding was not that they thought the *person* had any connection to China, but that the concept of ZPG relates to what they know of China's policies.

My kids know about China and this policy because we talk about stuff. All kinds of stuff. It comes up in the news every once in a while. There are an awful lot of Chinese girls adopted to America, and there's a reason for that. There's a youth fiction series that focuses on a government-enforced two-child policy. It came up (in a superficial way) with my dad's Chinese prof who enjoyed visiting his big crazy extended family. :D I don't think it's at all odd for children to relate the two, if they understand what ZPG stands for.

[Witsec1]

Again, I'm just reading differently, probably.

My understanding was not that they thought the *person* had any connection to China, but that the concept of ZPG relates to what they know of China's policies.

My kids know about China and this policy because we talk about stuff. All kinds of stuff. It comes up in the news every once in a while. There are an awful lot of Chinese girls adopted to America, and there's a reason for that. There's a youth fiction series that focuses on a government-enforced two-child policy. It came up (in a superficial way) with my dad's Chinese prof who enjoyed visiting his big crazy extended family. :D I don't think it's at all odd for children to relate the two, if they understand what ZPG stands for.

And if you have a bumper sticker saying "Drink Responsibly" it's just like Prohibition. :roll:

Maybe it's my mood but I have been using the eyeroll smiley a lot lately.

[emmiedahl]

Having too many boys is not a result of ZPG. It is the result of misogyny. One child policies are flawed and have huge moral implications, but the gender imbalance is the result of a completely unrelated belief. India is seeing some of the same issues despite not having a one child policy.

[Hane]

Slightly OT: Back in the early '70s, one of my students was a 15-year-old teen mom (who got pregnant despite an IUD) and an outspoken advocate of Negative Population Growth. Intelligent and cool young woman (she used to list her religious affiliation as Bokononist).

Fast-forward a few decades, and she was married, with three more kids she adores.

[emmiedahl]

I think it is normal to change beliefs as you get older. I always planned to have one bio-child and adopt the rest, but several birth control failures later... here we are. :)

[debrand]

Again, I'm just reading differently, probably.

My understanding was not that they thought the *person* had any connection to China, but that the concept of ZPG relates to what they know of China's policies.

My kids know about China and this policy because we talk about stuff. All kinds of stuff. It comes up in the news every once in a while. There are an awful lot of Chinese girls adopted to America, and there's a reason for that. There's a youth fiction series that focuses on a government-enforced two-child policy. It came up (in a superficial way) with my dad's Chinese prof who enjoyed visiting his big crazy extended family. :D I don't think it's at all odd for children to relate the two, if they understand what ZPG stands for.

I worded that badly. I didn't mean that they thought that the individual was directly connected with China but that his or her views on ZPG was influenced or similar to China's.

[kb2]

"But what happens if everyone starts doing that and all of the older people keep getting older, and there are fewer young people to support them?"

"Does that work with our kind of government?"

"What if you end up with more males than females, or more females than males?"

"If our country decided to do that, and no other country did, wouldn't we eventually be so weak that we'd be kind of picked off?"

"Why are they concerned about people not having enough food when we're standing on acres and acres of what used to be farmland that's now a bunch of coffee shops and Apple stores?"

Not counting social security, elder care doesn't have to be a pyramid scheme.

Generally, free speech is protected by our government these days, but forced sterilization is not. So yes, that bumper sticker works with our government. Stop being paranoid about your middle-class self.

We have unmanned aircraft. Someone set back Iran's nuclear progress with a computer virus. Our safety is probably better ensured by having some very well-educated people than moar babies. I really don't think we need to prepare for trench warfare with Canada.

Actually, what you're standing on used to be grassland, forest...whatever, I don't know where they are. When the farmland was concreted over, other grassland/forest were possibly turned into farmland. But what happens when all the available land is taken up? Just because this situation is doing great to sustain your current population doesn't mean you'll be fine a billion people from now.

[NurseNell]

I think it is normal to change beliefs as you get older. I always planned to have one bio-child and adopt the rest, but several birth control failures later... here we are. :)

I wanted 12 kids, I loved the book Cheaper by the Dozen. My plan was to have some by birth and some by adoption. Ended up with none by birth and 3 by adoption. If I'd have had 12 I'd have ended up on the psych unit so 3 was good.

[NurseNell]

I followed a link from another blog that I sometimes read to this site.

booksandbairns.blogspot.com/2010/02/zpg-indeed.html

Her 6th child is named Seven. :think: She has a child named Atticus. :geek: Maybe she liked To Kill a Mockingbird? And a child named Manolin. :shhh:

[emmiedahl]

Atticus is one of the most kickass names evah. But Seven? For the 6th? lol. Is it Manolin or Mandolin?

She is putting the fun in fundie, now isn't she?

[NurseNell]

Atticus is one of the most kickass names evah. But Seven? For the 6th? lol. Is it Manolin or Mandolin?

Manolin, not the musical instrument.

[debrand]

I wanted 12 kids, I loved the book Cheaper by the Dozen. My plan was to have some by birth and some by adoption. Ended up with none by birth and 3 by adoption. If I'd have had 12 I'd have ended up on the psych unit so 3 was good.

I wanted a very large family also. It didn't work out that way for us either

[debrand]

Manolin, not the musical instrument.

Do you pronounce it like it sounds? I think that the name is from The Old Man And The Sea.

[LynnKaboom]

My friend Daiyu lurks around here, but doesn't have an account because she doesn't think her written English is good enough to participate, but she's on the phone telling me to tell you that China has a lot more problems with the one-child policy than just a lack of girls. The population is aging, and there's not going to be enough younger people to replace the older people, and the workforce is going to have problems because of that. She says that a negative population growth is just as bad as too much population growth, although they're bad for different reasons.

[Wolfie]

I

What does ZPG have to do with the sex of a baby?

Because, if you've been told all your life that men are better than women, and that evil people like to kill their babies before they are born, you'd automatically assume that if you were only allowed a couple of kids you would kill any girls before they were born. :roll:

[VeraAnne]

Well, to be fair Wolfie, the gender balance in China (and India) is frightening. I forgot the exact number, but the UN estimates there are something like 40 million "missing" girls thanks to sex selective abortion and female infanticide.