So what if a coutrship doesn't work out

[kpmom]

I don't think a girl or guy should just date anybody they can find. I waited by my own choice for a good man- I was blessed greatly for my patience. Not giving peices of your heart away is the incorrect label for what it should mean " avoiding getting hurt/ regret" date whoever and you might get hurt.

I guess I still don't understand how this is so different from dating and then breaking up. If a courtship ends the two are going to feel some pain or regret, even if ending it was the right thing, as much as two daters breaking up. How is that so different?

[debrand]

I didnt experience this. My mom was adamant that I be careful but she was hurt badly in another relationship before she met my dad. But not what you are talking about.

There were times that I was hurt in relationships and times that I acted foolishly over a guy. Now that I am older, I can understand how those moments shaped me and eventually led to me being a better wife and human being.

People react differently than pain. Does the fact that your mom was so hurt by a past relationship mean that she suffered more than me or that I'm a stronger person? I would say no to either questions. Your mom is a different person than me(obviously) She and I have different reactions.

One of my problems with courtship is the one size fits all mentality. If I had been forced into a courtship model, it would have hampered my growth as a human being. That is why each person should be able to decide for themselves what they makes them comfortable.

It seems to me that most people who practice courtship believe that it is the best method for everyone. Bexrani, if your daughter decided that courtship was not for them, would you support their decision?

[Austin]

I was riding in the car with one of my 18-year-old sons last night and a song from his iPod started playing. "I Still Miss You" or something like that. And he stopped talking and started singing and it was a very pretty song, so I listened. At the end, he turned to me and said, "You never really experienced any of that, did you, mom?" (The boys know that their father is the first man I ever dated or loved.) It was just a question, but I almost had the sense he felt a little sorry for me, which I kinda get.

My situation was not intentional (there was no courtship or limiting of interest in any guys) - it's just how it worked out and it is good. But I am glad that my sons are experiencing relationships and working their way through the mystery that is love and attraction and commitment and all of those things. I think their lives may be richer for it, as long as they respect themselves and the young woman involved along the way.

[Guest Anonymous]

This whole concept of a pain free path to personal relationships /personal growth is rather alien to me. The whole mind set is one of avoidance and acceptance that the be all and end all of someones life is partnering. People grow change and flex.

What a woman is attracted to when she is 18 may change by the time she is 28 and it may change multiple times more. I see this whole posturing as a means of stagnation. It takes on larger than life dimensions when we add the whole guy in the sky factor. For a bunch of bible thumpers I can hardly see where this 'courtship model' is biblical. Hell just go back to daddy trading a couple of goats as a bride price.

One word that continually comes to my mind when I read about these courtship attitudes, childrearing attitudes and attitudes towards GLBTS by the fundies is closeted. All of their existence is closeted, they are raised as very special hot house flowers, and groomed for nothing more than reproducing more hothouse flowers. What a narrow POV. No diversity of thought, no exposing kids and family to a greater world, just a bunch of extended family huddled together afraid of the real world.

[kayray]

ETA: In regard to first relationships working out--that's great if it does. That's how my parents are--high school sweethearts, married..uh, more than 30 years. However, if one of them (God forbid) died, the other would have a really really tough time--not just with living alone, but with navigating relationships. That's not a good or a bad thing--it just is. Point being, just because you avoid the pain of breakups now doesn't mean you'll avoid it forever. And, from personal experience, sometimes those bad breakups teach you really really amazing, important lessons.

This, for sure, especially the part in bold.

I was married at 30, after dating my husband for just over a year. From the time I first started dating as a teenager, until I met him, I had many relationships of different levels of seriousness, different lengths, and so on. I regret absolutely none of them, or their endings, because what I learned from both those relationships and the breakups is a big part of who I am and such big part of developing my own sense of self, as well as what I genuinely wanted and needed in a life partner. The endings also most definitely helped me develop my own strengths. Painful experiences can be incredibly beneficial to your personal and emotional growth.

I honestly believe that those experiences helped me be more selective, and more appreciative, of the wonderful and amazing man I met and married. I also firmly believe that our previous experiences have created an independence that works very well for us in relationship to each other. We are very, very close and feel incredibly fortunate to be in each others lives, but we also know we can function on our own - not because we anticipate separating, but because it allows us to respect and love each other more for the individuals we are, rather for what the other can "do for us". We are both very confident that we are better partners, and have chosen better partners in each other, than we ever would have without our previous life & relationship experiences. Heck, if we had met 10 years prior, and/or without those previous experiences, we likely would have passed each other over for someone who was definitely not so good for us!

And as you pointed out it is not just breakups one needs to think about either, death happens too - and not always after decades together. When I was 22 my boyfriend of nearly 5 years died suddenly. As horrible as that experience was, I was confident from my experiences that I would be okay and that I could certainly love fully again without having to deny the love I had had for him.

To be honest, I see approaching life with a motive to "avoid pain" as avoiding what it is to truly live.

[Extricated]

What about the guy? Let me guess- for him it doesn't matter.

One failed courtship for either gender is generally considered a learning experience. More than one leads to more serious investigating by future families being approached. For guys it usually includes a lot of questioning about porn and may include surprise visits to check computer history at home and showing up unannounced at a place of work to speak to coworkers to see if a double life was the problem. With girls being more sheltered her parents are blamed more for any broken courtships because they should have been watching her better.

[fundiefan]

I simply don't get how supposed courtship prevents pain and/or heartbreak. I have been brokenhearted over/because of family relationships, friendships, even working relationships. The heart isn't only involved with those you are romantically involved with. If you love and/or care, you are in a position to feel heartbreak. The whole pieces of your heart bullshit is just that, bullshit. A broken heart isn't a smaller heart. A heart doesn't break off and disappear; it's healed and expanded. I'm not saying a broken heart is all good, but it isn't the end of the world either and it doesn't damage you. Emotionally, yeah, one can become more guarded, cautious, etc...but the heart and the ability to love don't diminish because of hurts.

And, I've always said that the courtship things creates more opportunity for pain and heartbreak than casual dating. With casual dating, you know you are going to see how things work. You know it's to get to know each other and take things as they come. With courtship, you are planning for marriage and all that goes with it from the minute to you decide to 'court'. There is more potential for heartbreak when your goal is marriage, family, security, etc...than there is for getting to know each other and seeing where it goes. Two months of courtship ending - your entire future comes into question. Two months of dating comes to nothing, it's two months and lessons learned.

[Kitten]

I don't think a girl or guy should just date anybody they can find.

I don't think they should, either. This is what bugs me about the fundy view of dating - that all these young people are racing out into the streets and grabbing the first person they see of the opposite gender and shacking up with them. I think most people only date people they are attracted to. I did date people I hadn't thought of dating, simply because they asked me, and I thought, hmmm, this is a chance to get to know this person one on one, without the pressure or influence of a group around, and find out more about him. Some worked out, some didn't. I didn't jump into bed with everyone I dated, some I never even kissed or hugged.

Not giving pieces of your heart away is the incorrect label for what it should mean " avoiding getting hurt/ regret" date whoever and you might get hurt.

Again, I never dated "whoever," and neither did anyone I know. Did I hurt the guy with whom I went out on a date, and found out that I wasn't attracted to him in a romantic way, but just as good friends? Maybe, but that could happen in any relationship. Heck, isn't that where "failed" courtships come from? You explore each other's lives and personality, and one of you decides, gee, I don't think I can feel true romantic love for this person. So, to be fair, you walk away. No matter how nicely or calmly you do that, the other person, if s/he is human, feels pain and rejection (unless s/he is secretly relieved). Frankly, I think dating is a much easier way of doing that - all it took me was one night of having dinner and going to a movie with a guy to realize I had no romantic interest in him (but he was loads of fun to be friends with).

I waited by my own choice for a good man- I was blessed greatly for my patience.

God is not a cosmic gumball machine

Indeed. If the latter were true, we could all accept that whatever happens to us is the direct result of our actions, and decide whether we want to be "naughty or nice." But we all know life doesn't work that way, or every devout SAHD would end up happily married to the man of her dreams and they would live in beautiful homes surrounded by loving children, without a want or care in the world. Or that "bad" guys (and girls) would always reap the full repercussions of their evil deeds, and end up in a gutter somewhere.

I have friends/family who are devout Christians/Buddhists/Hindus/Jews/Muslims, friends who are agnostic/atheist/non-religious, and friends who simply don't even bother to think about spirituality, and I would be hard-pressed to note any differences in their life experiences.

[keen23]

Why is it important to avoid "the pain of a breakup"? Aren't all experiences learning experiences? That's always how I viewed it. I absolutely knew that my first "boyfriend" wasn't going to be the guy I married. But we had fun, and fooled around a little, and I hope we each learned some things from this relationship.

If anything, breaking up with someone, and suffering some heartbreak by being the person who is broken up with is a good thing. This way you can do a better job of picking your next partner. Like you dated Johnny the football player, because he was hawt- but it turned out it was an idiot. So the next time, you pick Carlos, who you connect with better with your brains even if he won't be on the cover of GQ. And if Carlos turns out to be an emotionally manipulative a-hole, you know the warning signs for next time.

[Letgo]

I simply don't get how supposed courtship prevents pain and/or heartbreak.

Remember the Botkins' webinar? The couple is supposed to avoid ALL emotional attachment prior to marriage. The courtship time is when the couple and their parents determine if God wants them to be together. If the potential courtship is decided NOT to be what the Lord wants, then it can be ended without pain. Remember, many of these couples get to know each other via email and phone calls. And those can be very businesslike, not at all romanic. When they finally meet, the engagement can be within a couple of days. Breaking up with a person with whom you have only communicated online and/or with a chaperone has to be easier than breaking up with an actual flesh and blood person. Also, if there is no sex, no kissing, and maybe not even any touching, there will be less heartbreak. The whole idea is to not have any emotion or commitment before the marriage. Not sure why someone would want to marry someone without any emotion, though. But that seems to be what they are promoting. I don't get it, either.

Aren't all experiences learning experiences?

NO!!! Someone should have paid more attention to the webinar! :D Those break-ups are teaching you to not stick with someone, increasing your chances to have your marriage end in divorce. They also give you "baggage" that you will bring into your marriage. Jim Bob has mentioned this with Michelle and she was all of 15 when they met. There is ONE person for you and there is no sense in shopping around with others. Just wait for that One and avoid sin and heartbreak.

[PBrooke]

See "courtship" is far too general of a phrase. I "courted" but it was nothing like you describe. We used the term to indicate that we were serious about each other. Not a flippant date.... But serious. My boyfriend and I directed things. Our parents gave us their blessings and at times their caution and advice. My mom was responsible for helping my boyfriend and I smooth out my feelings after our first disagreement.

I don't regret it. Happily married to him!

This may be hard for you to understand, but many people who "dated" have never been on a "flippant date." For me, "dating" did not exist as it does on TV or in books. I did not know anyone who had a "date" with one boy on Friday and another on Saturday and had it be socially acceptable. When I was in school (in the late 90s and early 00s) you got to know a boy, one of you "asked the other out," and then he was "your boyfriend." The relationship might last weeks, months or years. I don't think I knew anyone in high school who was sexually active who wasn't in some sort of "committed" relationship. It was more or less like this in college too, though the introduction of alcohol led to more "hooking up" amongst people I knew. Actually, I think the real factor was that my generation was raised under the shadow of AIDS, so monogamous relationships were promoted and casual dating and sex were deemed unsafe. Then in the 00s AIDS didn't seem like such a real scary threat, and people were older, so maybe a little more experimentation went on.

At any rate, I eventually got married to a boy I "dated" in high school, though we broke up in college and I "dated" someone else in the middle. Because I'd had other boyfriends, I knew for sure that this guy was the one for me (the breakup was more growing pains). We've been happily married several years. Still, I occasionally wish I HAD casually dated, just for the experience. It always seemed like such fun on the movies - and what seemed like fun to me is probably exactly what scared you, or your parents (whose dating experience, by the way, was probably during a different and more carefree time).

I seriously doubt that courtship is, in practice, much different than the dating I went through as a teen. I think that fundies have a hard time processing this because their only experience is outdated or fictional.

[keen23]

This may be hard for you to understand, but many people who "dated" have never been on a "flippant date." For me, "dating" did not exist as it does on TV or in books. I did not know anyone who had a "date" with one boy on Friday and another on Saturday and had it be socially acceptable. When I was in school (in the late 90s and early 00s) you got to know a boy, one of you "asked the other out," and then he was "your boyfriend." The relationship might last weeks, months or years. I don't think I knew anyone in high school who was sexually active who wasn't in some sort of "committed" relationship. It was more or less like this in college too, though the introduction of alcohol led to more "hooking up" amongst people I knew. Actually, I think the real factor was that my generation was raised under the shadow of AIDS, so monogamous relationships were promoted and casual dating and sex were deemed unsafe. Then in the 00s AIDS didn't seem like such a real scary threat, and people were older, so maybe a little more experimentation went on.

At any rate, I eventually got married to a boy I "dated" in high school, though we broke up in college and I "dated" someone else in the middle. Because I'd had other boyfriends, I knew for sure that this guy was the one for me (the breakup was more growing pains). We've been happily married several years. Still, I occasionally wish I HAD casually dated, just for the experience. It always seemed like such fun on the movies - and what seemed like fun to me is probably exactly what scared you, or your parents (whose dating experience, by the way, was probably during a different and more carefree time).

I seriously doubt that courtship is, in practice, much different than the dating I went through as a teen. I think that fundies have a hard time processing this because their only experience is outdated or fictional.

I'm your age, or just a few years older- graduated HS in 1996. I knew LOTS of people in HS who were just casually hooking up. Then again, we also had pretty frequent and easy access to alcohol and/or pot, empty houses for house parties, and everything else that goes along with it. I was occasionally the girl who was "hooking up" with different guys on different nights- though not to the extent of actual intercourse, but just about everything else. I knew lots of girls and guys who were doing the same thing. This is middle class, white America just south of Boston MA in the mid 1990's.

[Kitten]

The couple is supposed to avoid ALL emotional attachment prior to marriage.

Yeah, but unless you're a RoBotkin, I don't know anyone that's capable of that. Heck, I get a little bit put out when I'm not picked first for a trivia match. If you're potentially interested enough in another person to take it to the level of "courting," you've already invested some of your "heart" into the relationship. For us "casual daters" -- remember the first time your crush noticed you? Whoooo-hooooo! Heady days...even if you realized two weeks and a few conversations in the schoolyard later that he had the IQ of an eggplant and you had no more interest in him.

I just don't get the "piece of your heart" thing at all. It's a phrase the fundies toss around, but I don't think they could really tell you what it's supposed to mean. If the Bates were to suddenly decide the Duggars were not suitable company, wouldn't the Duggars be a little bit hurt and offended? Does that mean they would have lost "pieces of their heart" as a result? Because ANY personal relationship you have requires some emotional involvement on your part, or why would the relationship exist in the first place?

Same for "baggage" -- I think that's just a code word for "My wife/husband was interested in another person before me, and I'm so totally insecure that I think s/he is constantly comparing me to that person and I'm coming up short."

[Letgo]

I don't get the pieces of your heart thing, either. There is not a finite amount of love in one's heart. And what about a couple who court and do everything "right" and the marriage still ends when the husband walks out because he no longer wants to be married or a Christian? I know a couple like this and the wife has remarried. It is her second marriage but her new husband's first. Is he second best? Does he only have part of her heart? Is the marriage always going to have problems because she had a prior relationship? I would love to have these people explain this to me. I am not trying to be mean or hurt this woman-the details of what happened with her first marriage are awful-so I would never ask. But if she and her family truly believe in the pieces of the heart thing, isn't she, by definition, damaged goods now? That is why this concept just doesn't work. While I can see that a broken relationship can cause problems (such as trust issues if your ex cheated, for example) in the future, it does not doom a future relationship or make it any less than the past one was.

Just because I liked or loved someone before my husband does not mean that we have less of a marriage. And although both of us dated others prior to meeting, not once has that ever come up and caused a problem in our 30-some years of marriage. I never even thought of this until I first heard the "pieces of the heart" idea. Not sure who came up with it, or why, but I would love to hear an intelligent, logical explanation for it.

[treemom]

I love you people. Seriously I love reading about all this from you guys because you are so brilliant.

[Kitty]

My boyfriend and I have been dating, as well as having pre-marital sex, for 4 months. Quelle horreur! And our respective dads have zero problems with this! :O

I've been in a lot more relationships than he has. None of them lasted long, but yes, I've been hurt. Badly. By most of them. And so has he. And since we're adults, we can talk about our experiences rationally. I'm on good terms with several of my exes, he's not. Is this what the whole "pieces of the heart" thing is about? People might still have feelings for their exes? I don't. I only have feelings for my boyfriend. Some of the things my past boyfriends did really, really hurt, and still hurt now. But this doesn't stop me from loving my boyfriend at all.

As a matter of fact, four months is 2-4 times as long as all but one of my previous relationships, so something's going right.

My dad was divorced before he married my mother. They even had a kid (my older sister) together. Trust me, my dad and his ex do not have feelings for each other. The ex being batshit insane certainly helps, true...

[dawbs]

i've been trying to go back to my more-fundie days and figure out what would make a 'breakup' less painful. Because I still don't see a difference between a breakup between 2 people who are dating and 2 people who are 'courting'.

In my experience, the more involved the significant other is with your family, the harder the breakup is. The guy I went out with 3 times and went "nope, not for me" wasn't hard. The guy who was good friend with me ('Good Christian Guy' who we promised would end w/ mutual respect and friendship if it went to pot....yeah, that didn't work so well) who was ALSO on good terms w/ my family--who had a friendship w/ my sisters, whose family I hated to 'break up' with, etc....that was thousands of times more painful because the people in our lives were so intertwined. (and breaking up w/ him is one of the most intelligent things I have ever done. But dating him wasn't necessarily one of the stupidest.)

By definition, Courtship would result in that intertwining of lives and friends and family. Which means a failed courtship takes away not only the piece of your heart that you've given to your 'significant other', but it also creates fractures in relationships wtih friends and family.

[annalena]

I do not agree with the "less touching leads to less heartbreak" thing. I had my first boyfriend when I was 16. Damn, did I have a crush on this guy (read: idiot). After we met about 4 times in 4 weeks, plus 3 times coincidently on the school yard, he decided to dump me when he (conincidently!) met me at the public pool.

We kissed about, well , 3 or 4 times maybe?!? and this was it. No further touching. (When should it have happened anyway). I suffered serious heartbreak for about a year.

[annalena]

In my experience, the more involved the significant other is with your family, the harder the breakup is. The guy I went out with 3 times and went "nope, not for me" wasn't hard. The guy who was good friend with me ('Good Christian Guy' who we promised would end w/ mutual respect and friendship if it went to pot....yeah, that didn't work so well) who was ALSO on good terms w/ my family--who had a friendship w/ my sisters, whose family I hated to 'break up' with, etc....

also in not-fundy-land:

the first serious relationship i had was 17-19 with a guy called oliver. nice guy. my family loved him. i did too, but he was, well, just a little boring for me in the long run. wouldn't have worked.

i dumped him and my parents acted like i had been found on the streets selling drugs, or similiar. i should mention i dumped him because of another guy, but hey, shit happens. it's not a nice thing to do, but i didn't choose for it to work out this way. parents told me my life was going downhill, i was choosing the wrong lane, i was lost, etc. also, they called me and asked how i could do this to my sisters who loved oliver so dearly. (they did. but this was about me and him. not them)

today, i have a good friend called oliver. it's been 8 years since i dumped the other oliver. i know the new oliver for about 5 years now. whenever i'm on the phone with my mother and tell her something about him, as in "i went out for a drink with oliver yesterday" or " i'm invited to oliver's wedding" she's like "oooh your ex? HOW IS HE? I haven't heard from him in SO LONG!"

[BexRani]

To try to form a relationship apart from emotional attachment is not healthy. If my child wanted to not use the term "court" fine with me. I would enforce certain rules- no sex before marriage is definite. Call me crazy but that's my belief and God's command.

Relationships will include emotions and with that emotional pian. I had my first crush at 18. The boy cared not one bit for me. But it hurt. Now I have my dear hubby.... I think the crush was dumb. But it was not sin.

Keeping pieces of your heart is idealistic but not true. It is a misguided attempt to control. Best intentions.... But lousy. Marriage is more then just emotions or sex. Love is more then emotions or sex. Love is a determination. A free will choice to care about someone in a very deep way. "keeping peices of your heart" is NOT a good teaching to enforce to the extent if no attatchments. Humans thrive on emotional attachments to someone or something

[BexRani]

Also just to clarify... Even if my daughter or son had sex before marriage they would still be our child. And she/ he would always be able to call our house her home.

[debrand]

To try to form a relationship apart from emotional attachment is not healthy. If my child wanted to not use the term "court" fine with me. I would enforce certain rules- no sex before marriage is definite. Call me crazy but that's my belief and God's command.

Relationships will include emotions and with that emotional pian. I had my first crush at 18. The boy cared not one bit for me. But it hurt. Now I have my dear hubby.... I think the crush was dumb. But it was not sin.

Keeping pieces of your heart is idealistic but not true. It is a misguided attempt to control. Best intentions.... But lousy. Marriage is more then just emotions or sex. Love is more then emotions or sex. Love is a determination. A free will choice to care about someone in a very deep way. "keeping peices of your heart" is NOT a good teaching to enforce to the extent if no attatchments. Humans thrive on emotional attachments to someone or something

If your daughter is over 18, you can't really enforce the no sex rule. You can try to convince her that you are right, but in the end the decision is hers. All parents hope that their children follow their values but you can't make them.(I have three teens and an adult son, I know :D )

I agree the 'giving away pieces of your heart' is a silly teaching. It makes emotions sound like a finite thing. I would also think that it places undue guilt on the person who has had a failed relationship.

[treemom]

You can't even enforce it when they are teenagers.

[debrand]

You can't even enforce it when they are teenagers.

This is true. Part of being a parent is allowing your children to stand on their own two feet and make mistakes. Sometimes kids decide to go against what they were taught.

[BexRani]

A child should be taught responsibilty so that by the time they leave home they are full functioning and responsible adults.

True - I cannot force anyone to do anything outside of their choice and free will. But I can teach and help my children to make a better choice in life. And this includes abstaining from Pre-marital sex.

As a side note not only does God command the abstaniance of sex before and outside of marriage there are also the health risks that come with this that I desire to protect my children from.