Elisabeth Elliot: A Second Look at Passion and Purity

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

And thanks for the clarification of queerbaiting, but which Sherlock are your referencing?  I'm only familiar with the BBC Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch.  

That would be the one. 

[Howl]

58 minutes ago, katilac said:

That would be the one. 

If I see re-runs, I'll watch with a more critical eye.  It seems there may be another season of Sherlock, but not for a few years. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:12 PM, Katzchen24 said:

I'd never heard of either Jim or Elisabeth Elliot prior to reading this thread.

Me neither, but then as a Catholic I wouldn't have.  Nice Catholic girls in my day were supposed to save it for marriage. But there was never, ever, ever, ever the weird virginity-fetish fundie-gelical purity culture.

But then I remember more than one bride in my childhood parish who delivered a 7- month, premature, bouncing 8 lb baby. Just imagine if that child had been full term.

The only people shocked were the old biddy spinsters over 80.  There may have been a few smiles and knowing looks, but no one else, not even the parish priest, was clutching their pearls  

[MamaJunebug]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Me neither, but then as a Catholic I wouldn't have.  Nice Catholic girls in my day were supposed to save it for marriage. But there was never, ever, ever, ever the weird virginity-fetish fundie-gelical purity culture.

But then I remember more than one bride in my childhood parish who delivered a 7- month, premature, bouncing 8 lb baby. Just imagine if that child had been full term.

The only people shocked were the old biddy spinsters over 80.  There may have been a few smiles and knowing looks, but no one else, not even the parish priest, was clutching their pearls  

One of my favorite Junebug Family Stories concerns the young couple who married, had a baby 8 months later, and came back to show off the baby when it was agreed to be “one month old.” 

After great-grandma had bestowed her blessing, they set the infant on Grand Aunt Bertha’s lap. Bertha, a never-married lady, was profoundly deaf from adolescence and her voice had gotten shrill.

The baby was a plump little thing and Bertha at age 90 weighed all of 90 pounds. As we all cooed at the sight of The Babe And The Elder, Bertha demanded in her usual screech, “How old’s this baby?” 

“One month,” my aunt who was the grandma mouthed at Bertha. “One month,” great-grandma and a few others nodded. 

Bertha gave a slight snort, and after a golden comic beat, declared at high volume, “Biggest one-month-old baby I’ve ever seen!” 

We in the room erupted in laughter, and “we” included my very Victorian grandmother (born 1880), her sons and daughters and grandchildren! Yeah, the baby was conceived pre-wedding! Busted! So what?!

I can’t imagine a family laughing at the situation if it had been steeped in the culture that gave rise to the Elliotts.

BTW, Mr. E’s writing, may he RIP: overblown, much?  The kind of writing done by people who think their words will be read by generations to come! So overwrought, stilted, self-involved and phony!

Edited October 2, 2020 by MamaJunebug

[louisa05]

I read the "Incompatibility" transcript. Lord, for people who practically worship marriage, fundies and evangelicals have a depressing, cynical view of it. Yikes! 

I vaguely recall a Sunday School story of Jim Eliott and company being killed in the jungle when I was a child. But I never really knew anything about him or Elisabeth until I was teaching at Christian school. They used some video series of Elisabeth to teach abstinence to the juniors in their "Bible" class. The rebellious kids mocked it all the time. 

[CyborgKin]

Quote

spent hours feverishly studying the apostle Paul’s writings in the original Greek, trying to discern if he was being disobedient or obedient in his interactions with Betty.

If that's your approach and your attitude, you're doing it wrong!

I don't usually quote the Botkins, but: It's Not That Complicated!

 

On the topic of queerbaiting: https://medium.com/@hspence137/supergirl-and-the-cw-how-a-lack-of-representation-has-led-to-one-of-the-worst-cases-of-3d4469362fa8

[hoipolloi]

Drawing on two recent biographies*, an article on Elisabeth Elliotʻs third marriage, to Lars Gren, poses some disturbing questions:

Quote

Both biographers describe a dramatic curtailing of Elliot’s freedom after her third marriage. Gren decided when she drank a cup of tea, took a bath, and when she slept. He frequently checked her car’s odometer, double-checking that she hadn’t made any unplanned stops. He controlled the house thermostat. He listened in on her phone conversations and had the final say on whether she visited her friends, often declining invitations for her at the last minute....Gren kept up a grueling speaking schedule for the introverted Elliot...Elliot maintained a whirlwind of speaking engagements long after her Alzheimer’s diagnosis in the 1990s because of Gren—even after she’d lost the ability to speak.

Not surprisingly, there is pushback from the usual suspects. Click through to see Lucy Austen's response to Strachan.

*The independently researched & written Elisabeth Elliot: A Life, by Lucy Austen and the second volume, Being Elisabeth Elliot, of the family-authorized biography by Ellen Vaughn.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

Drawing on two recent biographies*, an article on Elisabeth Elliotʻs third marriage, to Lars Gren, poses some disturbing questions:

Not surprisingly, there is pushback from the usual suspects. Click through to see Lucy Austen's response to Strachan.

*The independently researched & written Elisabeth Elliot: A Life, by Lucy Austen and the second volume, Being Elisabeth Elliot, of the family-authorized biography by Ellen Vaughn.

So is this Owen guy saying no one can ever talk poorly about Elliot’s third husband because Elisabeth is dead and Gren is in a care home? That makes no sense. I hate the idea that you can’t bring up anything bad because they are dead or old. Sorry but that’s just trying to shut out the truth. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

So is this Owen guy saying no one can ever talk poorly about Elliot’s third husband because Elisabeth is dead and Gren is in a care home?

Yes, but more importantly, he's saying that no one should ever criticize the patriarchy or complementarian marriages even if the leading female exemplar was married to a fucking asshole who abused her for decades.

Makes me wonder what would have happened to EE if she had tried to leave Gren -- would she have been injured or worse in trying to escape his abuse?

Edited February 9 by hoipolloi
clarity

[Howl]

EE was married to Jim Elliott for three years, to 2nd husband for four years (and part of that time he was dying an extremely painful death from cancer) and then finally Gren from 1977 to 2015.  He was 9 years younger than she was. 

I noodled around on google a little and came up with Lars and Elisabeth's Love Story.   

This is pretty creepy:  "

"In the Family Life Today interview (see footnote*), Elisabeth said that she was absolutely closed off to the idea of a third marriage until Lars said something to her in the living room one day that changed her perception of him completely. According to Elisabeth (Lars doesn't remember this), he said, "I would like to be the one building the fences around you, and I want to stand on all sides."*

A bit more under the spoiler

Spoiler

Shortly after Lars' bold declaration, God convicted Elisabeth. In her own words, she said,

“I was convicted by the fact that God was saying to me: ‘You have not asked Me one thing about this. You just made up your mind that you were going to stay single the rest of your life.’ Well, then I had to get down on my knees and repent and say: ‘Well, you know, Lord, I want to do what You want me to do,’ and ‘How could I possibly have failed to, at least, mention this in prayer?’ I then opened my Bible, and to my utter astonishment—

Well, I have to say, before I tell you that, that I was constantly comparing Jim Elliot to Addison Leach. Jim could do a lot of things Add couldn’t do; Add could do things Jim couldn’t do. Lars could do a lot of things that Add and Jim couldn’t do—I was making these odious comparisons. I opened my Bible and, lo and behold, it was staring me in the face: ‘Men have different gifts, but it is the same Lord who accomplishes His purposes through them all.’”

EE also took husband #2's wedding ring, shaved off his initials and had husband #3's initials added.