The Personhood Amendment

[Ridiculous]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/0 ... NOT-People!

Short version is, Mississippi has an amendment up for vote that would grant "personhood" to pregnancies from the moment of fertilization. This would mean:

-All abortion, including in cases of rape, incest, and where the mother's life is at stake, illegal

-Birth control illegal

-Invitro fertilization illegal

-Stem cell research illegal

-Miscarriage subject to criminal investigation

Unlike other similar items that have come up in the past, this one looks like it will pass in a landslide. The petition had 30,000 more signatures than it needed to make it onto the ballot and even most of the state's Democrat politicians are backing it, including the state's attorney general. There are petitions for the same amendment active in all 50 states and the organization behind this makes no secret of their intention to use this to overthrow Roe V Wade.

[emmyfair]

This is really, really scary. It's like society is going backwards.

[GeoBQn]

Can the amendment also include free airfare for all women to flee the state?

[liltwinstar]

And how are they supposed to know when fertilization has taken place? Mandatory pregnancy checks? I mean, it's not like you feel it when it happens, and don't a large percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage before the woman even misses a period? Are they going to start doing tampon checks? Come on!

I actually heard a story on NPR about these types of amendments, and they had a lawyer point out that it would have ramifications way beyond health type issues - for example, if a fertilized egg is a person, can that person inherit property in the event of a family death? Can a woman be prosecuted for child abuse if she has a cup of coffee or a glass of wine before she knows she's pregnant? Does a pregnant woman then count as two people for carpool lanes? Is the fertilized egg counted in the census?

While I don't *like* abortion, I'm very pro-choice and VERY pro-birth control. A law like this scares the bejebbers out of me. Wish the folks trying to pass this law would spend time trying to figure out how to feed, clothe, and get medical care for the kids in our country without access to any of that. If no child went to bed hungry, if no child was abused, and if all children had what they needed in terms of medical care, education, etc etc - sure, then we'd have time to debate silly ideas like making eggs people too. But not now.

[Ridiculous]

What I think would end up happening is a lot of women would forgo prenatal care for as long as possible in order to avoid any documented proof that they were pregnant in case they miscarried or did anything that might get them into trouble.

With my first child, I was showing obviously by about 12 weeks, but I'm nearly 16 weeks along with my second and I just look a little chubby because I'm carrying differently. I think I can probably make it to 20 weeks before an observer on the street would know I was pregnant. A lot of women don't look pregnant until well into their 2nd or even 3rd trimester so they could get away with hiding it for a while and just claim irregular periods or something and say they didn't know. Of course, lack of prenatal care is a huge risk factor for preterm birth, stillbirth, low birth weight, and other complications, so the repercussions are farther reaching than the people behind this realize.

[Rachel333]

Mississippi has enough problems, and now it sounds like they want to put women back a couple hundred years. This will disproportionately affect poor women who can't afford to leave the state to get birth control or abortions.

[BravaAmica]

Damn, just when I was thinking Mississippi had settled down they start in with this shit. So, so glad I don't live in the South anymore.

[Hane]

I think of all the women close to me who have had multiple miscarriages, and I could just cry. Do the authors have any clue how hostile this bill is?

[treemom]

Sadly this won't do much to further limit abortion in Mississippi, the state only has one provider and he flies in from out of state to Jackson.

[emmiedahl]

This one will get killed (I mean raped, beaten and viciously murdered) in the Supreme Court.

[Lostie]

If we have any FJ-ers in Mississippi I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it doesn't pass.

[maybeizfundie]

Is there a link to read the actual amendment in full?

Because "The Facts" about it from TDK and "The Facts" about it from the pro-26 sites are rather different. ETA: The pro-side denies that this makes birth control illegal, denies that it makes IVF illegal, and denies the criminalization of miscarriage, and denies that it would legally prevent doctors from saving the life of the mother (as in ectopic pregnancies). So...given the disparity of the claims, I'm interested in reading the thing itself.

[Terrie]

Stuff like this is why I could never live in the South. Stuff like this makes me want to stage a protest that involves smacking baby dolls with a sledge hammer.

[dairyfreelife]

All of this bothers me. One because it is dangerous to women and children alike and even men. There are plenty of men who don't want to lose their wives to an ectopic pregnancy. Unlike fundies, most men actually care about their wives.

The birth control thing grates me big time. Not everyone takes them to prevent pregnancy. I have to take them to function. Before I took the pills, I could not move for an entire week I was in so much pain every month. Even though I am not cured of my condition, pills have given me the ability to function. It is wonderful.

Also, the miscarriage thing is just :angry-steamingears: Isn't a miscarriage often devasting enough? You are really going to subject the poor woman, who may already feel guilty, wondering if she did something wrong, to a criminal investigation. No one knows what happened most of the time. Usually something is wrong with the fetus early on and it was never viable. Sometimes something is wrong with the woman's body and that's almost never her fault either. It's completely horrific to even consider accusing a woman who has suffered a miscarriage of criminal wrongdoing.

It does happen, though it is very rare, that people try to cause a miscarriage. The only time I heard of it happening, it involved a young teenager who was too afraid to tell anyone she was pregnant and was too ignorant to get help. The baby did not die, but ended up brain damaged and her parents are raising it. The girl in question wants nothing to do with her child. It will never be able to live a normal life and will never be independent as an adult because of this. I fear not allowing abortion or birth control will only increase cases like this because people will try to find ways to get rid of their pregnancy. Is it really better to have brain damaged children than it is to just allow birth control/abortion? I bet these people think so. These types of people make me sick to my stomach, literally. To care more about the quantity of life than the quality of it is beyond disgusting.

Instead of this, work on problems of poverty, education, housing quality, domestic life, etc. It is not fair to the women, the men, and society to do this and it is especially unfair to the children who are stuck in terrible conditions, neglected by their parents who never wanted them and can't/won't come to love them. Sadly, just because someone has a child doesn't mean they love them or will suddenly care about them. In cases of rape or incest, they may resent the child. It's not fair to the children in question to have to live that way in such awful circumstances they never asked to be in in the first place. These people can claim all they want that they love children, but actions like these say differently.

This. just. AHHH! :angry-banghead:

I will say that I doubt this will pass.

[demgirl]

It would change the state constitution to include the following:

SECTION 33. Person defined. As used in this Article III of the state constitution, “The term ‘person’ or ‘persons’ shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof.

[Austin]

Here's the wording of the amendment:

Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Mississippi: SECTION 1. Article III of the constitution of the state of Mississippi is hearby amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION TO READ: Section 33. Person defined. As used in this Article III of the state constitution, “The term ‘person’ or ‘persons’ shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof.†This initiative shall not require any additional revenue for implementation.

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.c ... arty-ties/

This could threaten the ability to obtain birth control because many misguided anti-choicers believe that oral contraceptives, including emergency contraception, and IUDs are "abortion".

[maybeizfundie]

I see.

So the things listed are more a matter of concern about interpretation, not actually part of the amendment?

[Rachel333]

I know quite a few people who think Plan B is an abortion pill. I feel like even most pro-life people use some kind of oral contraception, though.

I get the idea that a fetus is a person, even though I disagree with it, but it just makes no sense that a fertilized egg is a person. What about identical twins? They start out as one fertilized egg and turn into two. Is that one person becoming two? Did the original fertilized egg have a soul, and if so which one was it? Or the fact that fertilized eggs can be frozen for years and still be able to develop into a baby. How is that in any way a person?

[Austin]

I see.

So the things listed are more a matter of concern about interpretation, not actually part of the amendment?

What's your point?

[doggie]

so the one tool that helps stop abortions (birth control) they want to stop. stupid people.

[HoneyBunny]

They put this on the ballot in Colorado. Even with the conservative enclaves in Colorado Springs and the rural areas, it failed miserably. It was started by some misguided high-schooler who felt the strong need to impose her values on everyone else. Funny how these people wrap themselves in the flag while walking all over the constitution.

[Austin]

so the one tool that helps stop abortions (birth control) they want to stop. stupid people.

This ilk does not want to reduce pregnancy. As long as women have no control over their own fertility, women have no control, period. That's the underlying theme of all of this crap. Although I do not deny their zygote worship, this is really about controlling women.

[browncoatslytherin]

i also want to ring in and say that not every woman on birth control is on it to prevent pregnancy. i have ovarian cysts, so i have to have horomonal birth control to prevent them. [and when they collapse they are extremely painful. think kidney stone.] of course, it does have that lovely side effect of preventing pregnancy, but again that is not the main reason i'm on birth control.

[Guest Anonymous]

They put this on the ballot in Colorado. Even with the conservative enclaves in Colorado Springs and the rural areas, it failed miserably. It was started by some misguided high-schooler who felt the strong need to impose her values on everyone else. Funny how these people wrap themselves in the flag while walking all over the constitution.

When fascism comes to America, it will be wearing a cross and waving a flag-Sinclair Lewis

[maybeizfundie]

What's your point?

I was just trying to figure out what it actually said. Having a hard time seeing criminalization of miscarriage or all birth control stemming from it. (And frankly, the mainstream Evangelical wing of Christianity, even pro-lifers, are far, far too attached to contraception to support it's criminalization. As hated as Dobson is here, even he is not against contraception as a rule, for instance, and FOTF statement pages leave plenty of room for the use of hormonal contraception, though not RU-486).

I can understand why people are upset about it, based on the abortion issue alone. But having a hard time with the use of some of the claims as if they were concrete, written in parts of the amendment, if they are not. Probably what made my antennas go up most was the part about miscarriage, since that's something I've dealt with. Criminalization of miscarriage certainly would be nuts, but I'm not seeing it here, at all.