The Personhood Amendment

[Guest Anonymous]

I actually think the miscarriage bit would be pretty simple. I'm in the middle of the miscarriage from hell right now (4 weeks and still not finished). I've been poked and violated more times this month than ever before in my life. They already do blood work at every visit and check for everything from HIV to Cocaine. All they'd have to do is put Methotrexate/Cytotec on the list of screened drugs.

Not commenting about the ethics of the law, just the feasibility of actually monitoring if a woman caused a miscarriage or not. Some places already test for these drugs because there are some crappy men out there who drug their gf's drinks with abortificients.

I'm very sorry that you're going through that, VeraAnne. I wish you health and healing.

That said, I completely disagree with you. You named two drugs that can easily be checked for, but there's at least a hundred ways that one can attempt to end a pregnancy. They're of varying levels of effectiveness and many are dangerous, but they certainly exist and some of them would be hard to disprove.

There's two sides to this coin - the first is my belief (currently backed by the SCOTUS) that women have a right to reproductive freedom that includes access to safe and legal abortion. The second is that it's sheer cruelty to subject a woman who has lost a wanted pregnancy to an interrogation to make sure that she didn't do something to cause her miscarriage. The state and contents of any given woman's uterus at any given time should be solely her business unless she chooses to involve others. This amendment, if passed, will hurt women coming and going. It's disgusting.

[Kelya]

Where I went to college, there was a sudden freak out about availability of birth control/plan B. No one stopped having sex. No one decided to just be okay with having babies. Everyone just stocked up on non prescription methods of controlling fertility and lots of people I knew stocked up on herbal abortificants. Now that I'm removed from that time, the thought of my future kids sitting around, stockpiling condoms and discussing herbal abortificants in case a condom breaks FREAKS ME THE FUCK OUT. In some ways it sort of felt like reclaiming sex for ourselves- we were working around the societal constraints! Power! Whoo! None of us really seemed to think it was that disturbing to have to do, it was just something everyone did, then the crisis passed and it was over with. Now looking back, I see how sad and scary that was.

It was a big deal, I'm not suggesting we all just work around ridiculous situations like that, but I just want to illustrate that these laws don't stop people from having sex or having abortions. They simply make people work harder and be less safe at both of those actions. Even if you hate abortion and think its murder, would you rather see an 18 year old girl dosing herself with mugwort in dorm room, basically practicing medicine on herself with no recourse and hoping for the best, or an 18 year old girl being able to get safe, reliable care that isn't taking her life into her hands? It seems simple to me.

[treemom]

This is Mississippi- I will be shocked if it doesn't pass. A large number of democrats, including Johnny Dupree (the democratic candidate for governor) have come out in support of the amendment.

Frankly, I have heard very little in the news regarding potential threats to IVF and birth control access (I currently live in the Jackson area).

I find it rather disgusting that the current governor touts that "We are making Mississippi the safest place in the nation for an unborn child." on his website http://www.governorbarbour.com/issues/

While the state remains the WORST state in the nation (10 years running!) for the welfare of (postborn) children. http://www.starkvilledailynews.com/node/6965

Sandee,

I am in Memphis so I try to be abreast of mississippi politics and laws since it does have an impact on me being just across the border. Do you think it will actually impact abortion rates in Mississippi given the difficulty of procuring an abortion for those who don't live in border towns? Any opinion on how this will impact those who travel to say Memphis or another border city to procure an abortion?

[Austin]

I think it is likely that it will pass. We had the so-called "Heartbeat Bill" pass here in Ohio, which is a more progressive state (or used to be) than Mississippi. The heartbeat bill prohibits abortion after a heartbeat can be detected. A heartbeat is present for many, many women by the time they find out they are pregnant, or at least by the time they can schedule an abortion, so it pretty effectively outlaws abortion. I expect it will be challenged in court and eventually be overturned, assuming the Supreme Court continues to hold, which is a huge assumption. Thomas, Alito, and Scalia are knuckle draggers who would like nothing better than to send women back 100 years. They really just need one more vote.

And Demgirl, I like Ruth Ginsberg, too, but given her health problems, particularly her pancreatic cancer problem, if she wanted to do the responsible thing, she would step down and let the president appoint someone before 2012.

I don't agree with those democrats who are having such a hard time voting for President Obama again, but if for no other reason than this, it's crazy, crazy not to.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

gvc - i'd love to see how it might impact tax status.

surely a fetus is a dependent, in the truest sense of the word? :)

Heh. Yeah. "Check it out, it's a positive pregnancy test, now give me my deduction - I'm eating for two!!!" :P

As for inducing abortions, it was in the news a few years back that some teenagers in rural areas were resorting to taking cow hormones as a form of DIY abortion at home when they didn't want their parents to find out. Surely that's not the safest thing to be doing...

[Austin]

Apparently, Personhood USA is taking their misogynistic show on the road and are now targeting Ohio to change the Ohio Constitution to declare all fertilized eggs as "persons". fanTAStic :roll:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

October 14, 2011

BROAD COALITION URGES OHIOANS TO REJECT RADICAL CHANGES TO THE CONSTITUTION

COLUMBUS, OHIO – Healthy Families Ohio, a broad-based coalition, is calling upon Ohioans to reject radical changes to Ohio’s Constitution. Healthy Families Ohio announced that it is bringing together medical professionals, constitutional experts, faith leaders, professional organizations, and family and children advocates to protect against an extreme proposal that could threaten the health and safety of families, increase government intrusion in our lives, and cost the state millions in legal fees.

As its first act, the coalition called on Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine to reject the radically flawed and misleading attempt by Personhood USA to amend the Ohio Constitution. The summary of the amendment is not fair and truthful, and Attorney General DeWine should order proponents to craft a summary that accurately reflects the proposal.

This far-reaching amendment could give full legal rights and constitutional protections to fertilized eggs. This amendment could endanger women’s health and safety by outlawing most commonly used forms of birth control, limiting access to life-saving medical treatments, restricting in vitro fertilization, and forcing government intrusion in our lives.

The radical initiative is far outside the mainstream and is disconnected from the everyday values of Ohioans. “This is an attempt to insert government, lawyers and courts into the lives of our families and our private health care decisions†said Sandy Theis, spokeswoman for Healthy Families Ohio.

The coalition said experts have determined the proposed amendment would result in a deep re-weaving of the fabric of Ohio law leading to lengthy and costly lawsuits. “Giving legal rights to fertilized eggs has serious consequences,†Theis said. “This amendment would impact countless laws, could prove to be enormously costly, threaten quality health care, limit life-saving medical treatment for women, and affect patient privacy. It is too extreme and costly for Ohio.â€

http://www.healthyfamiliesohio.com/Releases.html

[dawn9476]

They put this on the ballot in Colorado. Even with the conservative enclaves in Colorado Springs and the rural areas, it failed miserably. It was started by some misguided high-schooler who felt the strong need to impose her values on everyone else. Funny how these people wrap themselves in the flag while walking all over the constitution.

Colorado is way more progressive than MS. That's why it went down in flames. Mississippi is probably in the top five of most conservative states in the country.

[emmiedahl]

I can't imagine having a police investigation for every miscarriage. I always would second-guess everything I did anyway. If the cops had come in, I would have been all, "Maybe it was the coffee--even decaf has chemicals. And I had a glass of wine before I knew I was pregnant! I studied all night for a test once..." And then what? They arrest me!?!?!

[JesusFightClub]

I can't imagine having a police investigation for every miscarriage. I always would second-guess everything I did anyway. If the cops had come in, I would have been all, "Maybe it was the coffee--even decaf has chemicals. And I had a glass of wine before I knew I was pregnant! I studied all night for a test once..." And then what? They arrest me!?!?!

This. It rings true in more ways than maybeiz can imagine seemingly.

Maybeiz, with the greatest of respect, WHAT. The example given was of an activist prochoice woman. being reported to have aborted a baby she wanted and miscarried. I guarantee you, if she is known for her activism, she will be arrested under those circs and under that law.

It is a piece of incredible middle-class naievity to think "Gosh, if I was arrested I'd just say I didn't do it and they would send me home with a pat on the head and a lollipop. Anyway good innocent people don't get arrested anyway". The miscarrying pro choice campaigner, if abortion became illegal, would be picked up at the drop of a hat.

The prochoice activist in an environment where a fertilised egg has personhood is at risk of being arrested for conspiracy while she is still pregnant and murder if she miscarries.

Emmiedahl, you are right. The first time you are arrested and interviewed is an absolutely surreal experience and you do talk, everyone does their first time. Anything you tell the police at any time can be used against you. The horror of being a woman having lost a much wanted baby, held in cells, interviewed by detectives, remanded into custody...I can't begin to imagine.

People think you just say "Well, officer, I couldn't possibly have done it" they instantly recognise your innocence and send you on your way. Nope. You will be asked everything from details of relationships to participation in protests to being told "our source, who we have every reason to trust, says...why should we believe you?"

It is being known as active in a movement that gets you. So while if this law was enforced I doubt every early miscarriage will receive that level of attention, a report on a known activist would, and I highly doubt US coppers are more scrupulous, fair minded and non politically or religiously biased than ours.

[Kelya]

I just don't even know how this would be enforced...what if you miscarried over state lines? What if you had a cup of coffee in a completely different state and then miscarried in Mississippi? What if you're passing through Mississippi and are raped? Or are pregnant and just traveling through and miscarry? This just seems insane and I hope it gets put on hold until the Supreme Court strikes it down.

I've never been arrested but I was questioned at a protest once and it was really fucking scary. Sure, you don't have to talk to them, but then they start with the "why not? if you've got nothing to hide...what's that there, maybe you should come on down and tell us more about it...don't make any sudden movements, now, we're just having a discussion..." and you realize that if this *asshole wants badly enough to scare you, fuck up your day, or break up your action, all he's gotta do is say you made an aggressive movement towards him and your day's shot.

*I have met lovely cops. I've also met assholes and they're the ones I'm thinking of here.

[Witsec1]

I've never been arrested but I was questioned at a protest once and it was really fucking scary. Sure, you don't have to talk to them, but then they start with the "why not? if you've got nothing to hide...what's that there, maybe you should come on down and tell us more about it...don't make any sudden movements, now, we're just having a discussion..." and you realize that if this *asshole wants badly enough to scare you, fuck up your day, or break up your action, all he's gotta do is say you made an aggressive movement towards him and your day's shot.

*I have met lovely cops. I've also met assholes and they're the ones I'm thinking of here.

... and don't forget, if they want to beat you up for any reason, you are the one who's going to be charged with assault - unless someone was videotaping.

[emmiedahl]

It would get into all these gray areas. Coffee has been linked to miscarriage, but most pregnant women (self included) have an occasional cup, especially in the first trimester when you are so tired. And what if you avoided all the right activities but simply did not rest enough because you have to work and/or go to school? Stress and exhaustion can cause a miscarriage.

My 3rd miscarriage was really hard. I hemorrhaged and almost died. I was past the normal 'dangerous period', so it was a shock. Everyone who came into the hospital room got to witness my distress and a few got an earful about how I was sure this was my fault in some way because why does it keep happening to me? It's amazing to think that in Mississippi I could have been prosecuted. Like that would have made it better.

I would have no idea how to act in a police investigation so I am certain I would fuck it up royally. It's not on my resume of skills. I don't even watch cop shows.

[JesusFightClub]

... and don't forget, if they want to beat you up for any reason, you are the one who's going to be charged with assault - unless someone was videotaping.

Again, this...what both you and Kelya were saying (except I never met a lovely cop in my life).

I didn't start off growing up negative against the police. But for 15 years now, before I was even political let alone a commie, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

[emmiedahl]

My parents put themselves through college growing/selling weed and doing a few other questionable things to supplement their income. I have never been a fan of police (although in WA state they seem much nicer than in CA). My husband's dad was a policeman, as were his friends' parents, godparents, etc. When we see stories on television about police, we make very different assumptions.

[darareaksmey]

Stuff like this is why I could never live in the South. Stuff like this makes me want to stage a protest that involves smacking baby dolls with a sledge hammer.

Awww, come on. Really? Do all of us in the south have to be labelled backward because of some misguided numbskulls in one state? Believe it or not, there are many, many MANY people in the south, including I am certain in Mississippi, who would never support this kind of bill; and I'm equally certain there are people in other areas who fully support it. Let's don't smear a whole area based on the stupid ideas propounded by some in that area, OK?

[emmiedahl]

It's not you. It's the government. I'm sure you are a nice person, but your government sucks ass.

[dawn9476]

I can't imagine having a police investigation for every miscarriage. I always would second-guess everything I did anyway. If the cops had come in, I would have been all, "Maybe it was the coffee--even decaf has chemicals. And I had a glass of wine before I knew I was pregnant! I studied all night for a test once..." And then what? They arrest me!?!?!

Kind of ironic that those who advocate small government would also push for a amendment that could lead to every pregnancy that doesn't end with a healthy baby being investigated, isn't it? Oh wait. I forgot. Small government is only for rich white christian males. When it comes to women, gay people, African-Americans, Latinos, Muslims, etc. government can't be big enough. :roll:

[dawn9476]

Awww, come on. Really? Do all of us in the south have to be labelled backward because of some misguided numbskulls in one state? Believe it or not, there are many, many MANY people in the south, including I am certain in Mississippi, who would never support this kind of bill; and I'm equally certain there are people in other areas who fully support it. Let's don't smear a whole area based on the stupid ideas propounded by some in that area, OK?

That's true. There are liberal areas in the south. But unfortunately as of now, they are mostly in minority.

[JesusFightClub]

[

My parents put themselves through college growing/selling weed and doing a few other questionable things to supplement their income. I have never been a fan of police (although in WA state they seem much nicer than in CA). My husband's dad was a policeman, as were his friends' parents, godparents, etc. When we see stories on television about police, we make very different assumptions.

I have nothing good about them at all. I can admit honestly I have never had a positive encounter with the UK police.

It was intriguing to see differences in what you said, mind. Can you say a bit more?

[emmiedahl]

I mean that my husband and I will be watching the news and a teaser about the police shooting someone might come up. He'll be all: oh, another criminal running from the cops, no respect for law and order. And I will immediately be like: cops just shoot, wtf is their problem? Then the story actually comes on and it is usually something between our two assumptions.

Basically: he grew up with policemen as kind, benevolent figures, while I grew up with them as people who were out to get my parents. So we both jump to opposite conclusions.

[JesusFightClub]

I mean that my husband and I will be watching the news and a teaser about the police shooting someone might come up. He'll be all: oh, another criminal running from the cops, no respect for law and order. And I will immediately be like: cops just shoot, wtf is their problem? Then the story actually comes on and it is usually something between our two assumptions.

Basically: he grew up with policemen as kind, benevolent figures, while I grew up with them as people who were out to get my parents. So we both jump to opposite conclusions.

I am on your side, though thankfully here coppers are mostly not equipped with firearms!

My earliest memory of the police in my town growing up is that they looked on smiling while an Asian boy was beaten in front of them. A few weeks later me and two friends were stopped by police in a van, threatened with being breathalysed, and told we could spend the night in the cells. We were 14, it was 8pm, and we were completely sober.

Since then, aside from the many comrades I know with stories of police harrassment and arrest;

People I went to school with who became police officers openly admitting "Ah like a guid fight ye ken and if ye join the polis can do what ye like"

Police on demos confiscating mobile phones, stamping on them and saying "Oops, my foot slipped" *smirk* Or arresting you for possessing one in the first place and during a demo, making a phone call.

Police walking alongside us on a protest march loudly cracking jokes about someone who died at the hands of the police in another country.

Police defending fascists by saying "You lot (antifascists) are the real problem. Not these lads, they just want to state their view." While behind them the

fash were doing Nazi salutes and shouting racist abuse.

That is just for starters. I'd be here all day ;) The point I was trying to make earlier on was "Don't assume it won't be you, and don't assume the polis take sensible views." Sounds like we agree :)

[emmiedahl]

I have never encountered anything like you have (and I am really sorry that this all happened! I would be terrified of anyone in uniform!). For me, it was more: seeing my dad tense up and watch out the window when a police car went by, being told not to discuss the plants in our laundry room. I guess I am wary of them in general just because I was raised to be. When I have been pulled over for traffic offenses, they usually call me maam and treat me very respectfully.

In my town, the population is about 50% Hispanic. They seem to be mistreated more, even though a lot of the police force is Latino. I know the crime rate is higher on that side of town, but it still makes me angry. I don't think policemen having a jumpy trigger finger improves a bad neighborhood.

[dawn9476]

Touching video as to why MS moms are voting NO on the personhood ammendement.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2 ... personhood

I can't believe that the people who are so big on the free market even when it comes to health decisions are going to take away the right of a couple to get pregnant using the free market through invitro.

[Austin]

Touching video as to why MS moms are voting NO on the personhood ammendement.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2 ... personhood

I can't believe that the people who are so big on the free market even when it comes to health decisions are going to take away the right of a couple to get pregnant using the free market through invitro.

That's a great video!

And you're right, the hypocrisy is astounding. And they seem to have no shame about it.

[browngrl]

I've noticed that fundies care deeply about the fate of fetuses but they don't seem to care much at all for the children who are actually born (unless of course those children are ATI/VF progeny). So how about this: a fetus becomes a person the moment that fundamentalists start considering them a social services leech. :D