Fundies and Pet Vaccinations

[Oddeverything]

I am not anti-vaccination but I am now of the opinion that for indoor only animals, especially cats, some of the vaccinations are not needed, and can be dangerous.

I once lived with the most remarkable cat ever and I always lavished medical care on him because he was my buddy and I felt it was the correct thing to do. In 2007 he developed an injection-site sarcoma on his thigh from his FeLV shot. Many cats still receive these shots in their necks and had my vet not been a leg-injection fan, he would have died. As it was, he lost a leg at age 15 and the stress sent him into chronic renal failure. It was horrible. After his surgery a friend online experienced the same thing except her cat died.

In a way I don't regret getting my cats all of their vaccinations at the time because we did cat rescue and at one time had an FeLV positive cat who lived in a room by himself. I'm glad we didn't take any chances. But now that we no longer rescue and because the cats are indoors only, I will only do what I must legally. I get them the rabies vaccination each year and that's it (though were we to get a kitten, it would get all its vaccinations recommended by the vet).

Vaccines for animals are significantly more dangerous than the ones for humans. If a vaccine for humans was known to cause a cancer growth in 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 humans and it could take a decade for the cancer to appear, would we permit anyone to give us such a shot? Those are the odds of a cat getting a vaccine-related cancer. I don't know the stats for dogs.

If you feel strongly about an animal receiving all vaccines, like a cat with access to outdoors, make sure the vet delivers the shot in the flank and not on the neck. Many people insist that most vets now inject only in the leg but that is not universal and just anecdata I received after my cat's amputation leads me to believe the practice of shots between the shoulder blades are more common than some vets think. An injection-site sarcoma between the shoulder blades is a death sentence. A leg amputation is grim but cats can live with three legs, as can dogs.

I guess what I am saying is that if a cat doesn't go outside and you don't constantly have new cats coming into your house, I would think hard about whether all the vaccines vets want to give are needed. Vets err on the side of caution but we know what our animals need. And some vets may encourage vaccines to pad the bottom line but most vets I know just want the animal to be healthy and cover all the bases. It's our responsibility to weight the drawbacks versus the benefits.

[NurseNell]

I am not anti-vaccination but I am now of the opinion that for indoor only animals, especially cats, some of the vaccinations are not needed, and can be dangerous.

I once lived with the most remarkable cat ever

What a handsome cat. I love his half mustache. It sounds like he was quite the cat, and I can see why you miss him.

Vaccines for animals are significantly more dangerous than the ones for humans. If a vaccine for humans was known to cause a cancer growth in 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 humans and it could take a decade for the cancer to appear, would we permit anyone to give us such a shot? Those are the odds of a cat getting a vaccine-related cancer. I don't know the stats for dogs.

I never knew that. I need to do some reading. My current 5 cats had their kitty series, and boosters at 1 and and some at 2. I retired and getting shots every year on 5 cats became very expensive. They are inside cats but do go out on my balcony. But other than the one who needs to get a lion shave I only get them their rabies immunization. I had a deaf cat I'd rescued many years ago who did get leukemia despite the feline leukemia shot. He did go outside sometimes too, not by our plan but because he ran when we opened the door. A calico I had also got leukemia and died. My sister's last 2 Golden Retrievers died of sarcoma, which I understand are fairly common in Goldens. Wonder if it's related to immunizations?

[Deleted12]

We had a dog that died of autoimmune hemolytic anemia, and ever since then we haven't allowed our dogs to get the bordatella vaccine.

That being said, we had a near miss with rabies a few weeks ago. Rabies is something that you just don't want to fool around with.

[VintageJen1984]

VinateJen would you really not even get your dog the rabies vaccine? Do you have any pets right now?

I would vaccinate my dog for rabies, because it is against the law not to. I thought the discussion was more about ones we were legally allowed to ethically refuse. My anti-vax status does not go so far as to break the law. Also, rabies is far more dangerous than anything my dog could get from a vaccine. I don't have any pets (that I am responsible for) right now, but I do plan to have an inside dog in the future.

[mstee]

I have dogs, and also rescue. With puppies, I get them the full set of shots. I start them at 3-4 months (keeping them out of the public until then) and then recommend titer tests after their first year of shots. As with another poster, I have not yet had a dog that's had it's full set of puppy shots come back with not enough immunity to diseases such as Parvo. I recently read a study that now says dog vaccines last up to 6 years. I plan to just keep titer checking my dogs ever 1-2 years. All of my dogs have the rabies vaccine, because they are registered with the city I live in, but I know that a lot of dogs can have issues with that vaccine. I've heard that it's one of the less-safer vaccines, but none of my dogs have had bad reactions.

I've cared for Parvo puppies, and luckily they all survived. They were in the shelter, and the shelter vaccinated them before giving them to me. They then came down with Parvo. I had a lot of people in the rescue community telling me that the vaccinations caused it. I don't know either way. All I know is that they were barely getting enough food in the shelter and the food was obviously low quality, and exposed to many dogs. There were so many things stacked against them, and they were lucky to make it.

Parvo is a terrible thing, and I would hate to see any dog suffer with it. I think the responsible thing to do is to feed your dog a high quality food, give them proper exercise, and make sure they have their 1st year of shots, and then titer test them. I'm not against vaccinations, but I believe in moderation. If your dog is testing with a high immunity to diseases, then don't vaccinate them. If they need a booster, give it to them.

[Buzzard]

I would vaccinate my dog for rabies, because it is against the law not to. I thought the discussion was more about ones we were legally allowed to ethically refuse. My anti-vax status does not go so far as to break the law. Also, rabies is far more dangerous than anything my dog could get from a vaccine. I don't have any pets (that I am responsible for) right now, but I do plan to have an inside dog in the future.

I titer when I can, and my old man has maintained his immunity for some time. We also do the required rabies in 3 year doses. I'm going back and forth on kennel cough because they can still get it but they have it for now.

I'm thinking the "well known" pet owner that is the source of this thread doesnt register her dogs and therefore doesnt vaccinate them. I'd be SHOCKED if she had a license for them...

[NurseNell]

I titer when I can, and my old man has maintained his immunity for some time. We also do the required rabies in 3 year doses.

What is the average cost of doing a titer?

[Buzzard]

What is the average cost of doing a titer?

Its actually more than the vaccine... but my monsters are insured so I suck it up. They're my kids!

[NurseNell]

Its actually more than the vaccine... but my monsters are insured so I suck it up. They're my kids!

Is each titer a separate charge, or are several titers covered under one charge? In the end it could save money though couldn't it, if the titers were good and immunizations not needed? It's not that I'm cheap but I have 5 cats and live on social security so cost is a factor for me. My kitties are my kids too.

[apple1]

Titers cost A LOT more than the vaccinations; I have checked this out in my area. I'm sure this is one of the reasons that titers are still the exception rather than the practice.

And many places to board, etc, still, unfortunately, do not accept titer evidence as equivalent to vaccination evidence. Not even my vets' own boarding kennel.

I really do think the idea of re-vaccinating pets annually originally was at least partly a way of creating income for the vaccine manufacturers and it was just accepted by vets as a way of guaranteeing income for them. (Sorry to be so skeptical).

If you stop to think about it, we don't vaccinate humans annually for their entire lives. We realize that immunity doesn't require that. It's about time that the recommend vax schedules for pets are reworked.

[NurseNell]

If you stop to think about it, we don't vaccinate humans annually for their entire lives. We realize that immunity doesn't require that. It's about time that the recommend vax schedules for pets are reworked.

True. And at least in my local area if a child or adult has titer documentation of mumps, measles, German measles, varicella, or Hepatitis B they are exempt from those immunizations.

After reading here I'm only going to get my cat who needs the lion shave immunized since the vet office won't do her without them. The rest will get their 3 year rabies because of spending time on my balcony. The risk of rabies is very low but it's not zero. When I get a dog I'll have to relook at the immunization question.

edited because part of a sentence got cut off

[Buzzard]

I've never asked about doing a titer for more than one vaccine, it may just be that my monsters are so spread out that I never thought of it. I've found that most vets are willing to work with you if you are on a fixed income (I'm going to pretend it has nothing to do with a DA calling and asking them to work with someone). Cost of titer + office visit fee is worth it for them vs no office visit fee at all. A good vet cares about the critters... and while they wont make it a general practice its kinda like community service.

All of the reputable daycares in atlanta will accept a titer. Petsmart wont... betcha know what I think about the "pet hotel"...

[apple1]

It was going to cost me $159 to get one of my dogs titered for DHL (distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis) alone. Rabies titer not included in the quote because of the law requiring actual rabies vaccination. This was the titers alone, and did not include the vet visit or any of the other charges from the vet that usually appear on the annual vet check (heartworm test, stool test, exam charge, etc).

[Curious]

AFAIK, there has not been as much research into pet vaccines as there has into human vaccines, and I don't know of any vet that will give the shot components separately like doctors can do with some childhood vaccinations. If I was as concerned about vaccine reactions with my pets as with my son, then I probably would space them out or be more selective, but right now there isn't a lot of data to go by and if it is an all or nothing thing then it makes more sense to vaccinate.

There is actually a lot of research on canine vaccines. Dr. Jean Dodd's has been doing research for years (I posted some link earlier in the thread) and there is a newer study for rabies vaccines that has been going on for a few years that was supposed to go for 7 years, it's probably been 3-4 years into the study by now.

Dr. Dodd's research is respected and widely used by many vets now and as I posted earlier in the thread her protocol is going to start being taught in vet schools (I'm unsure when that begins).

It was started by a woman named Kris Christine and is funded mainly by donations. I actually have acquaintance with Kris, because she transported a dog out here to me as a favor for the woman that pulled the dog out of the shelter and when no rescues would take him (because he's a biter), I said I would take him. She started the fund for research purposes because her dog got cancer directly on a rabies vaccination site.

Edit to add link to Rabies Challenge Fund: http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/abou ... lenge-fund

[Curious]

I'm going back and forth on kennel cough because they can still get it but they have it for now.

Bordetella immunizations are pretty worthless unless you have some specific circumstances such as routine boarding, showing your dog or you go to a log of dog parks.

There are something like 50 strains of kennel cough and the "shot" (it's actually internasal vs a shot with a needle) covers about 6 of those strains. It's also a "live" vaccine so it can actually give you dog kennel cough.

It also only has a 6 month immunity so you really need to get it done twice a year for it to be effective.

I have one dog (who is 16 now) that gets kennel cough EVERY freaking time someone gets the shot (it doesn't even have to be him. My vet doesn't even bother offering it to me anymore because she knows I am not going to do it because of my old guy. He is too old to be having to deal with kennel cough all the time.

My vet hospital requires bordetella vaccinations to be up-to-date before any boarding or surgery (because they technically "board" them during the surgery), so I just sign a waiver form that I understand that my pet may get kennel cough from being in a boarding situation and being unvaccinated for kennel cough and I won't sue them or anything.

[Curious]

I really do think the idea of re-vaccinating pets annually originally was at least partly a way of creating income for the vaccine manufacturers and it was just accepted by vets as a way of guaranteeing income for them. (Sorry to be so skeptical).

If you stop to think about it, we don't vaccinate humans annually for their entire lives. We realize that immunity doesn't require that. It's about time that the recommend vax schedules for pets are reworked.

My old vet did not prefer to titer, but would if pushed. He did not advertise that it was an option, but I was willing to find another vet. His rational was if you are giving yearly vaccines was then you are SEEING the dog every year and you can catch problems. If you aren't giving vaccines then people have no reason to being their pets in for well pet check ups and things can be missed.

I pointed out that *I* was paying MORE yearly for titers than I would be for vaccines so that probably wasn't a concern with *me*, but I did understand his point with other people. Sometimes the yearly vaccine appt, is the only time an animal is seen by a vet.

Titer prices in my area have gone down a bit over the years, but they are still more expensive than vaccines. I've never cared because I was doing it for the dogs health and vet care in my area is expensive anyway. We joke that the vet hospital's next wing will be named after us, but they are our kids and they get the best care we can give them, period.

You really don't have to titer every year though so the prices average out. The cost is just more at one time than vaccines. The recommendation is to titer every 3 years. I have a 13 year old dog that I HAVE titered every year (he is the first dog that I started with titers so he was my "test" dog). He got 3 puppy shots and a booster at 15 months (which did NOT include corona). This year his Corona came back slightly low, but it's not a disease that I normally even vax for. My vet was surprised it took this long since he never had a booster. Everything else he is still going fine on so I decided I'm not going to bother titering him anymore at this point in his life. He's had something like 11 of them now.

[NurseNell]

I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks! I just can't wait to move so I can have a dog.

Have any of you added a dog into a family of cats? I'm not sure I'll go with a puppy. I like the idea of going to a rescue or humane group to get a dog who might otherwise be euthanized.

My sister has always had golden retrievers, the last 2 both died of sarcomas. She had heard that goldens are prone to these but maybe it's from the immunizations?

[Curious]

I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks! I just can't wait to move so I can have a dog.

Have any of you added a dog into a family of cats? I'm not sure I'll go with a puppy. I like the idea of going to a rescue or humane group to get a dog who might otherwise be euthanized.

My sister has always had golden retrievers, the last 2 both died of sarcomas. She had heard that goldens are prone to these but maybe it's from the immunizations?

Unfortunately, cancer is a horrible problem for Goldens :( Something like 60% of Goldens get cancer. Here is a link from the Golden Retriever Club of America that talks about cancer in the breed: http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf It's sad. They are beautiful dogs.

One of my Papillons had cancer (a mast cell tumor), which we did chemo on (he was recently declared cancer free because he's been 4 years with no cancer reoccurance) and it was awful.

[TennesseeWaltz]

I've been fortunate enough to have adopted two kitties and to have been adopted by another. I really appreciate all of the experiences and information shared in this thread!

[clibbyjo]

I have 5 animals(geez that sounds crazy even to me)all rescues. The dogs came with complete shots and fixed, the cats did not. The cats have all been fixed,tested for leukemia, they all get rabies shots and the newest kitten got her first set of shots. We do the rabies clinic every 3 years, its like $7 for a 3 year rabies shot so no one has an excuse not to get it. I have too much weird wildlife running around and I do not want my animals getting rabies. Only one of my cats is indoor/ outdoor and she comes in every night. She is around 10. My old indoor/outdoor cat lived to age 21. She was in kidney failure for 7 of those years and we gave her IV fluids every other day and she fine.

It is also required to have a rabies shot for all pets and to register your dogs. It is a $200 a DAY fine if you do not register your dogs so I always make sure that is up to date.

We just gave all 5 pets a dose of flea meds today as the new kitten came with fleas and passed them to the other cats who have never had fleas. I don't usually use chemical flea meds on my pets but she was infested and nothing natural worked.I am hoping 1 dose this late in the year should be enough.

I have also noticed many fundies do NOT get their animals fixed(especially cats) which burns me to death because those stray kittens they let loose end up in my woods and as MY responsibility. Get your pets spayed and neutered too. I don't want any more pets!

[TennesseeWaltz]

Clibbyjo,

We had a similar situation at my house. My former roommate's cat had fleas when we moved in. Getting rid of them was a nightmare. Flea bombs and the like make me nervous. Borax was amazing. Sprinkled it on the carpets and upholstered surfaces, brushed it in, let it sit, and vacuumed. I don't know if it's applicable to your situation, but I thought I'd volunteer the info. It helped me a lot!

[Guest Anonymous]

I have 5 animals(geez that sounds crazy even to me)all rescues. The dogs came with complete shots and fixed, the cats did not. The cats have all been fixed,tested for leukemia, they all get rabies shots and the newest kitten got her first set of shots. We do the rabies clinic every 3 years, its like $7 for a 3 year rabies shot so no one has an excuse not to get it. I have too much weird wildlife running around and I do not want my animals getting rabies. Only one of my cats is indoor/ outdoor and she comes in every night. She is around 10. My old indoor/outdoor cat lived to age 21. She was in kidney failure for 7 of those years and we gave her IV fluids every other day and she fine.

It is also required to have a rabies shot for all pets and to register your dogs. It is a $200 a DAY fine if you do not register your dogs so I always make sure that is up to date.

We just gave all 5 pets a dose of flea meds today as the new kitten came with fleas and passed them to the other cats who have never had fleas. I don't usually use chemical flea meds on my pets but she was infested and nothing natural worked.I am hoping 1 dose this late in the year should be enough.

I have also noticed many fundies do NOT get their animals fixed(especially cats) which burns me to death because those stray kittens they let loose end up in my woods and as MY responsibility. Get your pets spayed and neutered too. I don't want any more pets!

The strays that ended up with you were the lucky ones. Most live short, brutish and unhappy lives. They get attacked by other cats, dogs, or wild animals. They have a hard time hunting or foraging for enough to eat. And sa depressing number end up being abused by cruel humans. I agree with you, there is NO excuse for not spaying or neutering a pet.

[Kaylee]

There is actually a lot of research on canine vaccines. Dr. Jean Dodd's has been doing research for years (I posted some link earlier in the thread) ...

I just wanted to say thanks for this. I'll look up her research and read over it. I had grown up with dogs and we just always vaccinated according to the vet's schedule (actually, I don't remember my parents ever taking some of the dogs to the vet once they were older, but that's another issue). I'd never really thought about pet vaccines until I started ordering from Leerburg and noticed they were anti-vax.

[Buzzard]

If anyone is considering bringing a new fur baby into the house (or has a young one), I HIGHLY encourage you to look at insurance. My old man is very accident prone and likes to grow bumps (that I promptly have removed). I get my money back on him annually. Little woofer has been pretty healthy, but I am a big fan of insurance. I had a friend who had decide between taking out a second mortgage when her pup got cancer or putting him down. Theres no choice in that, but the economy sucks so no second mortgage to be had!

petinsurance.com

[starfish]

If you rescue an adult dog from a shelter and you already own cats, just make sure that the dog is friendly to cats. We love our shelter dog, but he has the "prey instinct" and we have to keep him separated from the cats. He attacks any animal that wonders in his backyard. We have coons, possums, squirrels and he just lumps cats in with those. I have never owned a dog that did not tolerate cats, so it came as a huge surprise to me.

Just FYI.