Life in a shoe-How to deal with Social workers at your door.

[SimplyMe]

Ok, to give you guys a different perspective, I also had a civilized argument about homeschool legislation with an aquaintence of mine. Here in NC, the state is overwhelmed by the number of homeschoolers and is having difficulty keeping track of them all. They are supposed to do once yearly homeschool inspections, but they don't. Ever. They don't have the manpower to send people out to do that. They are asking for us to voluntarily submit our end of year test scores. It is required by law that our kids take one of several choices of tests each year and to have those handy if ever asked to submit them. Sending them by mail is voluntary. My friend had a Facebook post about this and was up in arms that they are trying to get us to submit our scores. I personally have no problem with this, but she had loads of people responding about how much they agreed with her, how they won't give the state an inch so they can then in turn try to take a mile. I was compelled to ask why everyone was so worried about this.

These are snippets of the responses. I hope it's ok that I'm posting things from FB on here-- the names are obviously left off and there isn't any personal information in these, so I don't think I'm compromising anyone's privacy. If you guys think I am, I'll remove this post. I just thought it would give you an idea of the mentality that people have who would join organizations such as the HSLD.

The first paragraph is from me, the rest are some of the responses, many of them got multiple "likes" and a lot of additional posts in agreement with them.

**************************************************************************************

I have to be honest, I'm ok with them having more rules. I think the system is *extremely* lax about monitoring homeschool families. For those of us who are doing it correctly, I see no problem with having to submit test scores, attendance records, and so on whenever asked for them. I'm in my third year of home school and other than sending in my yearly card indicating that our homeschool is still open, I haven't had to do anything else. I haven't had a home visit, been asked to submit test records, nothing! For all they know, my kids and I have been sleeping all day for the past 2+ years. I know the system is overwhelmed because of the number of home school families in this state, but to me, that is scary and irresponsible neglect. The worry not being with families like yours and mine, but rather with those who "homeschool" their children to hide neglect and/or abuse or those who simply don't want to be bothered to get their children to school each day, but aren't actually schooling their children. That happens. A lot, especially with home school so much on the rise, it's the perfect excuse to keep a child out of school. I'm all for tightening up the regulations if it means helping to keep other children safe.

Responses:

My jumbled random thoughts.... If you give them an inch, they will take a mile. As time goes by and more and more people do the 'extra' that isn't required by law, it will become law. The more room you give them....for example, today it might be mailing in test scores that by law you don't need to mail, tomorrow it will be curriculum 'recommendations' which will be followed by regulated curriculum.

As far as abuse in homeschooling families...first it's sensational news. So, yeah, they are going to have a field day on the media outlets. There are many abused kids in the public school systems. Also, does government have a right to tell me what I do with my kids?

From personal experience, I don't want the government's protection. From ours and many friends government 'protection' really means endangerment.

I don't mind the gov protection in regards to the military and basics of what they do. In everything else, no, I don't. You can have homeschooling accountability without the gov...church, family, friends, ect. Personally, if I wanted the ...gov to have a say in what I do with my children I would put them in public school. There are other things that they have set in place to "protect/help" us that I IMO don't always do that ie: immunizations. The gov is all politics and money. I don't trust them with my children and more homeschool compliance will lead to more gov regulations.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I thought I posted this earlier, but don't see it--Vision Forum has a new book that tells how to deal with CPS! Also, isn't her husband on the board or something at Vision Forum?

For what it's worth my cousin's 15 year old turned them in to CPS because they borrowed a dvd from her without asking. She was egged on by spoiled brat boyfriend. It took the social worker about 5 minutes to decide nothing was wrong. Kid got community service and a new boyfriend.

My own experience came from nasty neighbors who did not know anything about my son's emotional problems. The social workers came--I pulled out all the records for his therapy. End of visit. Neighbors continued to be a pain in the ___ till the last day we lived there. I probably should have called CPS on them for the loaded gun he kept on the end table or called the police for the man urinating on his pole barn garage anytime he saw me in my kitchen window!

P.S.: Social workers, as a librarian, I feel your pain! The kid who scans the bar code to check out your book is an employee. I'm a librarian with a Master's degree in research and information taxonomies (among other things). It's a profession. And there's no BERRY in a library or a librarian. We're the only profession that is continually called by the wrong name. I'm not a li-berry-an!

[Buzzard]

I had a conversation recently about this organization. I homeschool my children (we actually do schoolwork, not Duggar-esque homeschool). My oldest daughter takes horseback riding lessons on Thursday mornings with a group of homeschooled kids. I was talking with the parents of one of the girls last week. They asked me if I belonged to this Home School Defense organization and when I told them that I didn't, they STRONGLY advised that I join. They kept going on and on about how as parents, our rights are on the line. First they are forcing us to submit test scores, next they'll be forcing our kids into public schools (hum, argumentative fallacy at all?!). Also, you never know when a neighbor might see your children out playing during the day and report you to CPS, who you know are always looking to take children away from their homes. Oh my! Their logic was so irrational, but they absoltutely believe that these things could happen and that they need to be protected just in case.

I didn't know what to say and just kind of kept shaking my head and saying "uh huh." Here's the thing; my kids truly have a blessed life with a mom and dad who love them unconditionally and give them guidance and discpline that doesn't involve physical abuse. I strive as their teacher to give them the best education possible and they test exceptionally well in their end of year tests. They have many opportunities to pursue their dreams and ambitions outside of the home. I have one who is a gymnast, one who rides horses, 3 of them do Tae Kwon Do, one who does art classes and so on. I have a great relationship with all of our neighbors (we live on a very socially active cul-de-sac)-- they often joke that they wish I'd start up a school on the block so I could teach all of the cul-de-sac kids. I have NO reason to be worried about CPS paying me a visit. In the unlikely event that they did, I'd have no problem letting them hang out with us, watch us do school, interact with my kids-- hell, they could spend a week with us if they so desired because I have absolutely NOTHING to hide!!! Why on earth I'd need this organization is a mystery to me and I agree with all of you-- if you think that spending money on this joke of a group is a wise investment, you really need to evaluate your parenting and stop doing whatever it is that you are afraid the authorities would come down on you for. It's that simple.

Exactly! But its a bad investment either way. If you REALLY think you are on the ebil guverments shit list then put an attorney on retainer. Sure, it will cost more than $200 but atleast then you know that they WILL take your case, that they are bound by law to represent you or they will return your money, and that they are licensed to practice in your state. It amazes me that people have such little understanding of the law and are willing to give money to people who claim they are "defenders of the faith" with little to no research. If someone called them on the phone and asked for a $200 donation to support a cause you know they'd be on google FAST looking them up... but not this...

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I did join HLSD when we first homeschooled--out of fear. I didn't renew it. It occurred to me that I was obeying the law, had filed the necessary paperwork, kept the necessary records and made my kids do their school work. Therefore, like the other poster said, I had nothing to fear. HSLD plays on FEAR.

[starfish]

The FB folks are a bit on the paranoid side, aren't they?

Of course, they bring up the "horror" of vaccinations. I wonder if they are passing along their vast knowledge of science to their children.

[Kitty]

The FB folks are a bit on the paranoid side, aren't they?

Of course, they bring up the "horror" of vaccinations. I wonder if they are passing along their vast knowledge of science to their children.

Oh yes, the "horror" of being immune to diseases that are now treatable, if not curable.

Do these fucktards not understand that people ACTUALLY DIED from that shit decades ago, and many of those diseases are still rampant in less-developed parts of the world? Do they not realize they're depending on herd immunity to LITERALLY STAY ALIVE?!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[justlurking]

I think you can also be licensed with a bachelor's in most states (LSW), including Minnesota. LCSW is a licensed clinical social worker, which definitely requires a MSW and can do counseling.

MN licensing info: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/ ... 20Book.pdf

Well, here in NJ, you can't be licensed (LSW) without a Masters degree. People with a Bachelors in Social Work have BSWs (and then there are the rare CSWs--who are most usually people who worked in social services for a number of years who were "grandfathered" into an honorary social work degree. I don't believe this distinction is offered any longer).

[Buzzard]

Oh yes, the "horror" of being immune to diseases that are now treatable, if not curable.

Do these fucktards not understand that people ACTUALLY DIED from that shit decades ago, and many of those diseases are still rampant in less-developed parts of the world? Do they not realize they're depending on herd immunity to LITERALLY STAY ALIVE?!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I purpose to use the word "fucktard" in conversation (no on FJ) atleast once tomorrow. If God chooses, I shall also use "fuckwad", but only if it is his will.

[ems]

Oh yes, the "horror" of being immune to diseases that are now treatable, if not curable.

Do these fucktards not understand that people ACTUALLY DIED from that shit decades ago, and many of those diseases are still rampant in less-developed parts of the world? Do they not realize they're depending on herd immunity to LITERALLY STAY ALIVE?!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

My dad almost died from Whooping Cough as an infant back in 1939, so it just floors me that the LiaS lady is like, Pertussis, no big deal! I understand that their are multiple views on things like flu shots, but I just don't get WHY one would complain about the "horrors" of a vaccine over the real horrors of deadly but preventable diseases.

[Feberin]

One of my coworkers used to live in the middle of nowhere. Their son had a rare disease but at that time none of the doctors they had visited was able to make a diagnosis. He was really small and skinny for his age. Somebody called CPS on them and CPS removed the baby to take them to a doctor but because of where they were it was a three hour drive to reach somebody that specialized in pediatrics. As soon as the doctor saw him they yelled at CPS for removing the child given his medical records but it was still a horrible experience for my coworker.

I think CPS showed up I would be nevous and scared even though I know my son is well cared for and not abused. I wouldn't hire a lawyer or not let them into the house but I would be scared.

[Linnea]

Ok, to give you guys a different perspective, I also had a civilized argument about homeschool legislation with an aquaintence of mine. Here in NC, the state is overwhelmed by the number of homeschoolers and is having difficulty keeping track of them all. They are supposed to do once yearly homeschool inspections, but they don't. Ever. They don't have the manpower to send people out to do that. They are asking for us to voluntarily submit our end of year test scores. It is required by law that our kids take one of several choices of tests each year and to have those handy if ever asked to submit them. Sending them by mail is voluntary. My friend had a Facebook post about this and was up in arms that they are trying to get us to submit our scores. I personally have no problem with this, but she had loads of people responding about how much they agreed with her, how they won't give the state an inch so they can then in turn try to take a mile. I was compelled to ask why everyone was so worried about this.

These are snippets of the responses. I hope it's ok that I'm posting things from FB on here-- the names are obviously left off and there isn't any personal information in these, so I don't think I'm compromising anyone's privacy. If you guys think I am, I'll remove this post. I just thought it would give you an idea of the mentality that people have who would join organizations such as the HSLD.

The first paragraph is from me, the rest are some of the responses, many of them got multiple "likes" and a lot of additional posts in agreement with them.

**************************************************************************************

I have to be honest, I'm ok with them having more rules. I think the system is *extremely* lax about monitoring homeschool families. For those of us who are doing it correctly, I see no problem with having to submit test scores, attendance records, and so on whenever asked for them. I'm in my third year of home school and other than sending in my yearly card indicating that our homeschool is still open, I haven't had to do anything else. I haven't had a home visit, been asked to submit test records, nothing! For all they know, my kids and I have been sleeping all day for the past 2+ years. I know the system is overwhelmed because of the number of home school families in this state, but to me, that is scary and irresponsible neglect. The worry not being with families like yours and mine, but rather with those who "homeschool" their children to hide neglect and/or abuse or those who simply don't want to be bothered to get their children to school each day, but aren't actually schooling their children. That happens. A lot, especially with home school so much on the rise, it's the perfect excuse to keep a child out of school. I'm all for tightening up the regulations if it means helping to keep other children safe.

Responses:

My jumbled random thoughts.... If you give them an inch, they will take a mile. As time goes by and more and more people do the 'extra' that isn't required by law, it will become law. The more room you give them....for example, today it might be mailing in test scores that by law you don't need to mail, tomorrow it will be curriculum 'recommendations' which will be followed by regulated curriculum.

As far as abuse in homeschooling families...first it's sensational news. So, yeah, they are going to have a field day on the media outlets. There are many abused kids in the public school systems. Also, does government have a right to tell me what I do with my kids?

From personal experience, I don't want the government's protection. From ours and many friends government 'protection' really means endangerment.

I don't mind the gov protection in regards to the military and basics of what they do. In everything else, no, I don't. You can have homeschooling accountability without the gov...church, family, friends, ect. Personally, if I wanted the ...gov to have a say in what I do with my children I would put them in public school. There are other things that they have set in place to "protect/help" us that I IMO don't always do that ie: immunizations. The gov is all politics and money. I don't trust them with my children and more homeschool compliance will lead to more gov regulations.

Thanks for sharing this, SimplyMe. I'm not a homeschooler, but if I were, I would *want* there to be some kind of accountability, like you do. If enough cases come to light where homeschooling has enabled parents to abuse or neglect their children (including educational neglect, i.e., failing to make sure your child learns anything), people are going to want to outlaw homeschooling.

When homeschooling is legal but there are no guidelines in place, it seems to me that what we're saying, as a society, is "education is optional". I don't want to live in such a society.

And the poster who said "There are many abused kids in the public school systems" is missing the point. At least in public school, an abused child is in front of mandatory reporters every day, who may be able to detect the abuse and intervene. If no one outside the family sees your child for months at a time . . . well, then you end up with cases like Hana Williams.

[Deleted03]

One of my coworkers used to live in the middle of nowhere. Their son had a rare disease but at that time none of the doctors they had visited was able to make a diagnosis. He was really small and skinny for his age. Somebody called CPS on them and CPS removed the baby to take them to a doctor but because of where they were it was a three hour drive to reach somebody that specialized in pediatrics. As soon as the doctor saw him they yelled at CPS for removing the child given his medical records but it was still a horrible experience for my coworker.

I think CPS showed up I would be nevous and scared even though I know my son is well cared for and not abused. I wouldn't hire a lawyer or not let them into the house but I would be scared.

I know a family who needs this happenning to them...

[oscar]

My dad almost died from Whooping Cough as an infant back in 1939, so it just floors me that the LiaS lady is like, Pertussis, no big deal! I understand that their are multiple views on things like flu shots, but I just don't get WHY one would complain about the "horrors" of a vaccine over the real horrors of deadly but preventable diseases.

Two of my little cousins were not able to receive the DTaP vaccine for medical reasons, and they ended up coming down with whooping cough along with their dad, who was not up to date with his boosters. The kids were miserable, and my uncle ended up breaking ribs from coughing so hard and developing secondary pneumonia requiring hospitalization. Like you, I don't understand the cavalier attitude towards preventable suffering.

Our favorite fundie prepper at Paratus Familia is currently dealing with a bout of pertussis among her family members. She is using this as an opportunity to promote a book she has written, entitled "The Prepared Family Guide to Uncommon Diseases." While she has secured appropriate antibiotic treatment in addition to binding the ribs and dosing with onion syrup, it is not clear whether or not her children were ever immunized. It seems like this ongoing caginess regarding her family's immunization practices arises from a desire to avoid government attention in how she raises her children.

Some of the comments on her pertussis-related entries are insane.

paratusfamiliablog.com/

[NurseNell]

Two of my little cousins were not able to receive the DTaP vaccine for medical reasons, and they ended up coming down with whooping cough along with their dad, who was not up to date with his boosters. The kids were miserable, and my uncle ended up breaking ribs from coughing so hard and developing secondary pneumonia requiring hospitalization. Like you, I don't understand the cavalier attitude towards preventable suffering.

I caught pertussis from an unimmunized student. Like your uncle I was quite ill. The student's 4 month old nephew died from it. It wouldn't have mattered if your uncle was up to date on his shots, pertussis immunization was only given until the age of 7. Then about 15 years ago we started seeing a lot of pertussis in older kids, when tested their immunity was gone. The new tetanus immunization is given to all ages, inc adults, it's usually combined with the tetanus and diptheria shot. The old tetanus formulation was also not given to some kids with neurological conditions, mainly seizures, but the new formula can be given to those kids.

My Dad lost 4 siblings to diptheria. I don't understand not immunizing either.

[Daenerys]

My dad almost died from Whooping Cough as an infant back in 1939, so it just floors me that the LiaS lady is like, Pertussis, no big deal! I understand that their are multiple views on things like flu shots, but I just don't get WHY one would complain about the "horrors" of a vaccine over the real horrors of deadly but preventable diseases.

My mother almost lost her sight to Rubella/German Measles as a baby in 1959, so I always get mad at people who are anti-MMR. The link with autism hadn't been disproven when me and my sister were being immunised, but my mother still decided she'd take a tiny chance autism over a child who could end up blind, deaf, or dead.

[starfish]

"The Prepared Guide to Uncommon Diseases" should read:

1. GET VACCINATIONS.

2. DON'T HANG AROUND PEOPLE WHO THINK COMMUNICABLE DISEASES

ARE A BIG JOKE.

[Terrie]

I got parapertussis at 8. It's a related, more mild disease than pertussis, and is different enough that vaccines don't protect against it. I'd already entered the coughing stage so we couldn't do much but prevent me from spreading it and let it run its course. I coughed so hard that my legs would buckle and I'd end up curled up on the floor as I rode out the coughs. Mind you, this is the MILD, HARMLESS variation of whooping cough.

[MaroonMandy]

Does anyone else read Paratus Familia? They all just got over whooping cough and the mom used this as a way to 1) hawk their book, "The Prepared Family Guide to Uncommon Diseases" and 2) remind everyone that the end of the world is nigh and all of us with vaccinations and a dependency on electricity will soon be knocking at their door begging for food.

[jenny_islander]

When I was a teen, I helped the local Baptist mission conserve the wooden grave markers at its summer camp, which used to be the place where little children who were sick were taken for quarantine. This was in the halcyon days when Baptists ran the school system and pretty much everything else, with the blessing of the territorial government. And this island, due to its remoteness, was free of vaccines.

The grave markers featured names, dates, and causes of death. One of the children who was buried there had died when he was 18 days old. He died of whooping cough. I'm sure his parents took great comfort in knowing that he had died free of vaccines as his tiny body racked itself apart.

I hang around online with people who don't believe in vaccination but are otherwise nice folks. I have told them the story of that tiny, mossy grave marker. They are unmoved. I don't understand.

[starfish]

Can you imagine being the parent of a child who had died due to a disease that was now entirely preventable ? I would think you would be amazed at what science has done now with vaccines, and completely astounded that some people knowingly refuse to vaccinate their children.

I myself feel so grateful that a chicken pox vaccination has been developed, and that my children will hopefully never know that terrible disease, or its ugly cousin the shingles. For me, chicken pox was not a funny or cute disease. It was terrible. I also know people and of people for whom it had dreadful consequences. (before the vaccine).

[emmiedahl]

I have a hard time listening to anti-vax people, and I have a lot of friends who fall into that category. I worry myself sick about my children. I mean, I lay awake at night thinking about them running out into the streets, or a neighbor's dog mauling them, SIDS, childhood cancers, a man with a gun entering my house or their school. One had a seizure and I was shaking for weeks. Even after I felt 'recovered', my hands would still tremble constantly. Yes, I have a documented medical problem with anxiety. But I never worry about them dying of rubella or whooping cough. What a gift that, unlike so many mothers around the world, infectious disease is not on my list of potential heartbreaks.

One friend of mine had a baby who was perfectly normal and then at 6 months (within days of that check-up when many get the controversial MMR) suddenly became very ill and started regressing. Now the child is older and severely autistic--but it is not because of the MMR, the mom was so terrified of having an autistic child that she never had her children vaxed. I'm sure if she had her children vaccinated, this would be another anecdote thrown around about the MMR causing autism.

[Bookworm]

I'm sort of in the middle about vaccinations - I used to know some teachers and cafeteria workers in the local schools and I would regularly hear stories about how a quarter of the elementary students had come down with measles, almost all of them up to date on their shots. Plus, I don't think there is enough research done on how effective vaccines are, how long the protection lasts, and things like the link between the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine and skyrocketing rates of shingles.

However, I do think vaccinations are very important. I think it's ridiculous to give them to newborns, so would never allow that with my children. Once their immune system is starting I definitely think children should be given shots for polio, tetanus, etc., just not all at once and not 5 or 6 doses of each.

I had a very mild case of chickenpox when I was an infant and was never vaccinated for it because of that – turns out I was not immune, probably because the breastmilk took care of the original infection, because I got it again when I was over 20. Two of my siblings did too, but while they were sick for a couple days I was delirious and covered with pox and the sickest I've ever been. Not fun at all. That was not a case of antivaxing, though, the doctors figured I was OK because of the early case.

Basically, just like I do with my animals I think people should have shots, but not necessarily as many as the official recommendations. Vaccines are not the devil, but they are not a magic pill either.

[emmiedahl]

ftr, I think people are entitled to their opinion and to make decisions for their own children. There have been shots that we held off on for a while, although having them fully vaccinated was always my intention.

I think we should look into what shots are given, and when and why. Probably there is someone somewhere right now studying this and working on new protocols, because they do change periodically. I don't think the anti-vax movement really wants that, though. I think many want a scapegoat for their child's disability (entirely understandable, but not really relevant to the overall vax discussion) and others are paranoid about modern medicine.

[dairyfreelife]

Really? :think: I find this odd. I'm not saying you did not hear those things, but when I was in elementary school, I never once heard of a case of measles, mumps, whooping cough, polio, diptheria, etc. I remember stomach viruses, strep, chicken pox, pink eye, lice and similar ailments, but never anything that was normally vaccinated against. The majority of children were vaccinated then (1990s). There definitely needs to be more research though, no doubt.

My two cents: All I have to say is watching a video with a young child with whooping cough is enough for me. I will absolutely vaccinate any children I have with the important vaccines. IMO, there is a much lower risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine than there is of contracting one of the illnesses. None of the diseases are completely eliminated worldwide and with modern day travel, why risk your child? Better safe than sorry. jmho.

[Kitty]

I have a hard time listening to anti-vax people, and I have a lot of friends who fall into that category. I worry myself sick about my children. I mean, I lay awake at night thinking about them running out into the streets, or a neighbor's dog mauling them, SIDS, childhood cancers, a man with a gun entering my house or their school. One had a seizure and I was shaking for weeks. Even after I felt 'recovered', my hands would still tremble constantly. Yes, I have a documented medical problem with anxiety. But I never worry about them dying of rubella or whooping cough. What a gift that, unlike so many mothers around the world, infectious disease is not on my list of potential heartbreaks.

One friend of mine had a baby who was perfectly normal and then at 6 months (within days of that check-up when many get the controversial MMR) suddenly became very ill and started regressing. Now the child is older and severely autistic--but it is not because of the MMR, the mom was so terrified of having an autistic child that she never had her children vaxed. I'm sure if she had her children vaccinated, this would be another anecdote thrown around about the MMR causing autism.

Autism shows subtle signs around 6 months, but it's not obvious until around age 2. Typically the early signs are completely missed by parents, so of course people are going to link it to vaccines...