Joy and Austin 16: Touring the Texas Rodeo

[singsingsing]

10 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Your definition of wealthy may be a bit skewed. Here is a breakdown of the costs of owning a plane: 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121415/economics-owning-small-plane.asp

As someone who currently makes around $10,000 a year, let me assure you that if you've got the money for all of that, you are doing quite well. Probably in the category of wealthy, in fact. 

I definitely think it depends on your definition of wealthy. I can't fathom anyone being able to afford a private plane not being wealthy, and the article you linked kind of confirms that for me. I think some people have this idea that 'wealthy' means you're a millionaire. 

[RainbowSky]

11 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Your definition of wealthy may be a bit skewed. Here is a breakdown of the costs of owning a plane: 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121415/economics-owning-small-plane.asp

As someone who currently makes around $10,000 a year, let me assure you that if you've got the money for all of that, you are doing quite well. Probably in the category of wealthy, in fact. 

It *really* isn't necessarily that much. My dad had his in his yard, which he moved to specifically because he could take off and land there. He has upgraded a lot (he has a hangar now etc)  but this is somewhat recently compared to my childhood.

 

When I was a kid, we lived in a single wide on my grandparents property and his plane was at a friends house. You can use normal high test in a lot of them...and you damn well don't need 10 gallons an hour for smaller ones...he and his friends would trade off helping each other with painting (one guy had a car shop and they'd use it) or building, etc. The entire thing is a hobby, not just the flying part.

My definition of wealthy isn't skewed to thinking millionaire. The "average family" they've been speaking of for tax bills, etc is way beyond my comprehension.

I work at a "fast food" place. I'm far from wealthy myself, believe me. But growing up with it, planes aren't that big of a thing lol. And it's waaay cheaper and faster than driving if you have family/friends or whatever that you don't live near. The gas guzzling trucks cost more to run. 

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think your perspective is highly skewed, since you said you make $10,000/year. Average income in the USA is about $27,000. 

Several of our friends own planes; none would be considered wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. 

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I think your perspective is highly skewed, since you said you make $10,000/year. Average income in the USA is about $27,000. 

Several of our friends own planes; none would be considered wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. 

Could someone with an average income, say $27,000, afford to own a private plane, though? (Honest question. I have never owned a plane, nor has anyone I know, so I have no idea what the real costs are.)

[SapphireSlytherin]

3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Could someone with an average income, say $27,000, afford to own a private plane, though? (Honest question. I have never owned a plane, nor has anyone I know, so I have no idea what the real costs are.)

Possibly - it depends on where they live, their cost-of-living, their debt-load, etc. Careful budgeting could (theoretically) allow plane ownership. I know for a fact that one of our friends who owns a plane has an income of about $34,000/year (he works for a public company, and their pay scales are available online). He supports a wife and a small child, too. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Living in the Midwest/great plains, making $75k a year goes one hell of a lot father than it does on the coasts.  Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis major metropolises aside, the more rural you go the further that money goes too.  You can buy a small plane, like the one Austin was flying, for the price of a car, and if you have the land to store it on the cost can be nominal.  Now owning a plane in NYC or Boston, where you can't afford to park a car, could be much more cost prohibitive.

Wealth is subjective, someone making $250k in Des Moines is wealthy, someone making that in NYC is middle class. So it is hard to say that XXX is a high salary or standard of living. 

[nausicaa]

50 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Wealth is subjective, someone making $250k in Des Moines is wealthy, someone making that in NYC is middle class. So it is hard to say that XXX is a high salary or standard of living. 

We forget this way too much on FJ. 

Also, while I know nothing personally about planes, I did know a bachelor who had a decent metro area job (about 75k a year) who owned a small plane out in the country. He seemed pretty good with money and it seemed like that was his passion and he was willing to sacrifice in other areas for it. Same with another guy I work with who owns a small houseboat. 

I think when people say you don't have to be wealthy to own a plane, they aren't saying it's accessible for poor people, just that you don't have to be a millionaire to have one. 

[LovelyLuna]

Mr Luna has his poilets license for tiny planes like that, I jokingly made him promise to knock me unconscious if we ever need to evacuate in one.  You could't pay me to go in one.  I would agree with others that flying can be a hobby for almost anyone.  Mr. Luna got most go his in air time with Civil Air Patrol and Search and Rescue.  He can barrow the CAP plane in certain circumstances which drastically reduces the cost to the fuel you use. 

[snickers34]

22 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

My dad had his in his yard, which he moved to specifically because he could take off and land there.

Uh, what? Is taking off from wherever you want a thing? Don't you need to communicate with towers and stuff? Aren't there rules about getting cleared for takeoff/landing, etc? Honest question.

[3SecondSideHugger]

35 minutes ago, snickers34 said:

Uh, what? Is taking off from wherever you want a thing? Don't you need to communicate with towers and stuff? Aren't there rules about getting cleared for takeoff/landing, etc? Honest question.

Not in light aircrafts.. they fly so low and if you’re not in a zone that’s controlled or near an airport.. some small airports don’t have towers .. no need to file anything

Edited to add : this also depends on the country you’re in 

Also, my husband is a career pilot and this is the extent of my knowledge, don’t ask me details XD

[LillyP]

23 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Your definition of wealthy may be a bit skewed. Here is a breakdown of the costs of owning a plane: 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121415/economics-owning-small-plane.asp

As someone who currently makes around $10,000 a year, let me assure you that if you've got the money for all of that, you are doing quite well. Probably in the category of wealthy, in fact. 

I'm well aware of what it costs to own a plane, my family owns an aviation business and my dad has been a private pilot since I was a small kid. While my husband I an I sold our plane because he just didn't have enough time to fly to justify the cost, I can assure you that while we do well, we're certainly not wealthy. But you're right, it does all depend on your definition of wealthy. Someone who is making $10k is going to consider most things outside of basic necessities a luxury, and others to be wealthy.  However, there's a misconception that that anyone who owns a plane must have TONS of money and it's a frivolous/luxury expense. It is, but in the general aviation world (NOT private jets, etc) most people who own small planes are not overly wealthy people. Their plane is their hobby. My husband is the kind of guy who could care less about having a constantly new car, and would rather make a plane payment while driving an older paid off truck. I know plenty of people whom I would not consider wealthy at all, who live quite modestly, but still enjoy hobbies that tend to be expensive (like golf) yet people don't automatically assume a guy who spends every weekend on the course to be "rich". Compared to someone barely making their bills, yes someone who can afford to golf every weekend is likely considered wealthy to them. My point is that on average MOST people in general aviation (aka: small planes like Joy & Austin are in) are just regular folks who happen to have a more unique hobby.

[3SecondSideHugger]

@LillyP I think people who have not been around small planes don’t realize how small and basic they are in comparison to a commercial flight. I had no clue til I started dating my pilot husband and thought ‘wtf this thing can stay in the air?’ 

[LillyP]

Just now, 3SecondSideHugger said:

@LillyP I think people who have not been around small planes don’t realize how small and basic they are in comparison to a commercial flight. I had no clue til I started dating my pilot husband and thought ‘wtf this thing can stay in the air?’ 

LOL....very true! Coming from an aviation family it's just so annoying  because there is such a misconception that anyone who owns a plane is a millionaire. My family owns an aviation business and so while "the business" has multiple planes realistically my dad has one personal plane. A Navion built in the 1940's and commonly used by the air force. It's super cool and unique, but not luxurious by any means! The number of times I hear "well your family just owns the whole airport" just grates my nerves. Mostly because we don't own the airport...haha....but also because we're just everyday people who live in modest houses and drive modest cars - and just happen to enjoy aviation.

 

[louisa05]

9 hours ago, LillyP said:

I'm well aware of what it costs to own a plane, my family owns an aviation business and my dad has been a private pilot since I was a small kid. While my husband I an I sold our plane because he just didn't have enough time to fly to justify the cost, I can assure you that while we do well, we're certainly not wealthy. But you're right, it does all depend on your definition of wealthy. Someone who is making $10k is going to consider most things outside of basic necessities a luxury, and others to be wealthy.  However, there's a misconception that that anyone who owns a plane must have TONS of money and it's a frivolous/luxury expense. It is, but in the general aviation world (NOT private jets, etc) most people who own small planes are not overly wealthy people. Their plane is their hobby. My husband is the kind of guy who could care less about having a constantly new car, and would rather make a plane payment while driving an older paid off truck. I know plenty of people whom I would not consider wealthy at all, who live quite modestly, but still enjoy hobbies that tend to be expensive (like golf) yet people don't automatically assume a guy who spends every weekend on the course to be "rich". Compared to someone barely making their bills, yes someone who can afford to golf every weekend is likely considered wealthy to them. My point is that on average MOST people in general aviation (aka: small planes like Joy & Austin are in) are just regular folks who happen to have a more unique hobby.

I think my perceptions are better than you think. First of all, yes, I bring home slightly less than $10,00 a year. That is not our total household income, or, frankly, we'd be homeless and unable to access the internet. We do not have a ton of discretionary income and it appears that we never will. Our income goes almost entirely to meet our basic needs. If we had not had a very good situation with rent prior to purchasing our home (a landlord who gave us a huge cut in rent in exchange for my husband taking care of the entire property--lawn care, landscaping, and minor repairs), we would not have had enough to live on. The place we rented was leased for twice our rent when we moved out. If we had not been gifted a down payment, we would not have been able to afford our house or any house adequate for our needs. There was a time six years ago, when I was making about $300 a month and nothing in June, July and August.

But if you can afford a private plane and all the costs that come with it, yes, you are reaching a level that can be called wealthy. In order to pay for what is, frankly, a luxury, you must have an income high enough to meet basic needs plus a large amount left as discretionary income. Pretending that that is not having wealth is nonsense. But there is a trend in this country of people thinking they are somehow poor or just getting by when they are way above the average income for their area. I have  friend whose combined household income is approaching $200,000 in an area where the median household income is $31,260. She complains about how hard it is to have to struggle to make ends meet, failing to understand that if your "struggle to make ends meet" is because you spend $20,000 a year for your kid to take elite level ballet training and hire film crews for your 13 year old to make her own movies, that is not actually a struggle to make end meets. 

Struggling to make ends meet is being at the grocery store with $30 trying to figure out how to feed two people on it until payday in six days. Struggling to make ends meet is having no pay for three months every year and running out of basic hygiene products at the end of it and having to ration your shampoo until October 15. Been there and done both of those things. Struggling is not being a bit short on cash because of the hangar fees for your private plane. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I hardly think making $34k a year (as my friend does - the one I mentioned earlier) is classed as "wealthy." Just because they own a plane (it's not new) and fly it occasionally (it's not their main mode of transportation, but they do use to for longer trips) doesn't mean they're rolling in dough. Because they're not. They live modestly, in a small house. They use public school for their child. They don't go on extravagant vacations (they camp in state parks, typically) and they don't wear designer clothes. They budget VERY carefully and share a car. So no, they're not wealthy, but they have a plane.

I'd LOVE to own a plane, but we don't. We do make more than he does, but our income goes toward other expenses (of our own creation), so we don't have a plane. Our hobby is travel, so that's where our "excess" money goes. If we stopped traveling, we could buy a plane - but I don't want a plane payment... lol.

As for budgeting - yeah, I do that. I feed the two of us every week on about $60 because I shop sales and use coupons. I've been so dirt-poor that I've eaten popcorn for the last three days of the month. I've had my water and gas shut off. I still buy 95% of my clothing at Goodwill, because I'm frugal and I know the true value of money. So the preaching about "wealth vs. non-wealth" is truly getting old. 

Just because some people make more than others do doesn't mean they're wealthy. Wealth is subjective. $10k/year in some countries would make someone a 1%er. 

[nausicaa]

59 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

But there is a trend in this country of people thinking they are somehow poor or just getting by when they are way above the average income for their area. 

Struggling to make ends meet is having no pay for three months every year and running out of basic hygiene products at the end of it and having to ration your shampoo until October 15. Been there and done both of those things. Struggling is not being a bit short on cash because of the hangar fees for your private plane. 

But no one on this thread has claimed that people who own planes or other luxuries are poor or struggling to make ends meet. We've only argued that it's a hobby that is possible for people who are solidly middle or upper middle class who are willing to cut back on indulgences in other areas and not just for those who are outrageously wealthy. 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

But no one on this thread has claimed that people who own planes or other luxuries are poor or struggling to make ends meet. We've only argued that it's a hobby that is possible for people who are solidly middle or upper middle class who are willing to cut back on indulgences in other areas and not just for those who are outrageously wealthy. 

And I think others were arguing that no one was claiming you had to be outrageously wealthy to own a private plane. It seems like everyone is arguing against a straw man, to be honest. No one's actually claiming that poor people can afford planes, and no one's actually claiming that you have to be a millionaire to afford a plane.  

I think it would be pretty fair to say that it's possible to own a plane on a relatively average income, but that most people who own planes are probably financially well-off. I would be extremely surprised to learn that most private plane owners are making an average salary, but if anyone would like to argue that that's the case, go for it. I have never owned a plane, nor have I ever known anyone who has, so I defer to others' expertise and knowledge.

And I really have nothing left to add to this discussion, due to my aforementioned ignorance, so I will bow out now with my latest prediction about Joy's baby: he will be born mid-flight in the private plane, and will be named Eagle Skyler Forsyth.

[pancakes]

30 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I hardly think making $34k a year (as my friend does - the one I mentioned earlier) is classed as "wealthy." Just because they own a plane (it's not new) and fly it occasionally (it's not their main mode of transportation, but they do use to for longer trips) doesn't mean they're rolling in dough. Because they're not. They live modestly, in a small house. They use public school for their child. They don't go on extravagant vacations (they camp in state parks, typically) and they don't wear designer clothes. They budget VERY carefully and share a car. So no, they're not wealthy, but they have a plane.

I'd LOVE to own a plane, but we don't. We do make more than he does, but our income goes toward other expenses (of our own creation), so we don't have a plane. Our hobby is travel, so that's where our "excess" money goes. If we stopped traveling, we could buy a plane - but I don't want a plane payment... lol.

As for budgeting - yeah, I do that. I feed the two of us every week on about $60 because I shop sales and use coupons. I've been so dirt-poor that I've eaten popcorn for the last three days of the month. I've had my water and gas shut off. I still buy 95% of my clothing at Goodwill, because I'm frugal and I know the true value of money. So the preaching about "wealth vs. non-wealth" is truly getting old. 

Just because some people make more than others do doesn't mean they're wealthy. Wealth is subjective. $10k/year in some countries would make someone a 1%er. 

I absolutely agree with this. The type of plane a hobbyist flies is often no more expensive to buy than a car. Flying it might cost a total of around $50-70/hour depending on the cost of maintenance, hanger or tie down fees, and the going rate for fuel at the time. It's not cheap but it's not something where you have to be what I would consider wealthy to do. I know some pretty typical middle class families who prioritize a big trip to disneyworld every year and are spending more on just that than people spend on their private plane. I do feely admit that it's not something someone living in poverty can afford but for someone with a middle class income, decent budgeting skills, and self control with other spending it's affordable.

[justoneoftwo]

Wealth is hard to define.  I would expect most people with pricy hobbies to be well off (or at least well enough off).  A plain is a pricy hobby, so are cars.  Its not impossible for someone who is doing reasonably well to pay for one expensive hobby (like golf, or fancy cooking).  

I don't think it makes one wealthy to have the ability to spend on one pricy hobby, but your certainly comfortable if you can.  

[AtlanticTug]

Of course owning a plane is a luxury. In a country where many are struggling to pay for health insurance and child poverty levels are where they are, etc. it's a luxury.

Doesn't mean you're in the 1% if you own one, but to look at it as anything other than the definition of luxury is silly.

Just like my cleaning lady and my dog walker are luxuries of convenience.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, AtlanticTug said:

Of course owning a plane is a luxury. In a country where many are struggling to pay for health insurance and child poverty levels are where they are, etc. it's a luxury.

Doesn't mean you're in the 1% if you own one, but to look at it as anything other than the definition of luxury is silly.

Just like my cleaning lady and my dog walker are luxuries of convenience.

Having a luxury doesn't necessarily mean your wealthy though.  Many people who are middle class or even making under the average have some luxuries.  

[SorenaJ]

43 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Having a luxury doesn't necessarily mean your wealthy though.  Many people who are middle class or even making under the average have some luxuries.  

Yeah, but a plane is a bit more luxuries than an iPhone. 

[justoneoftwo]

11 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Yeah, but a plane is a bit more luxuries than an iPhone. 

Sure, but is it more than a new car every 2 years?  A trip to Disney every year?  Name brand cloths all the time?  Eating out once a week and name brand cloths?  Golf every week?  

My point is middle class people are often able to afford some amount of luxuries, and if they want a plane as it instead of these other things many people could do it.  Its not what I would chose as my luxury, but you can give up other things to get it without being wealthy.  (Again it all depends what you mean by wealthy, I don't think someone in the middle income for a state is wealthy, but maybe you do).

[singsingsing]

If I could afford a new car every two years, a trip to Disney every year, name brand clothes 'all the time', eating out and playing golf once a week (without going into debt - a lot of people live this kind of lifestyle and go into substantial debt for it), I would definitely consider myself wealthy. Compared to a millionaire, no. Compared to the average person, yes.

[justoneoftwo]

4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

If I could afford a new car every two years, a trip to Disney every year, name brand clothes 'all the time', eating out and playing golf once a week (without going into debt - a lot of people live this kind of lifestyle and go into substantial debt for it), I would definitely consider myself wealthy. Compared to a millionaire, no. Compared to the average person, yes.

I didn't mean all of those, just pick one.  And maybe this has to do with location too.  The average family where I live (well, within the average range) probably can do one of those things.  I could be wrong, and obviously half of the families can't if the average can (or some large percentage close to half) but I don't consider being able to have one of the above wealthy.  All, sure, but it sounds like a plane isn't that much more than some of these. Basically my point is that the average family around here could have a plane if thats what they wanted.  They would have to give up other things, but they could do it.