Joy and Austin 16: Touring the Texas Rodeo

[formerhsfundie]

4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

If I could afford a new car every two years, a trip to Disney every year, name brand clothes 'all the time', eating out and playing golf once a week (without going into debt - a lot of people live this kind of lifestyle and go into substantial debt for it), I would definitely consider myself wealthy. Compared to a millionaire, no. Compared to the average person, yes.

Yeah, I think of people who are paying off their house, going to Disneyland, buying new clothes,  and affording horseback riding lessons for their kids as wealthy. I have been stuck in a cycle of poverty since birth, however, so it's hard to see past food/shelter/clothing when that's never been secure. Makes me wonder how hard it is for well-off people to understand poverty. It must seem almost as mystifying to them how people manage to never have these things... enlightening thread!!

[justoneoftwo]

Okay, so what would not poor but not wealthy mean to people?  

 

To me that means being able to pay the bills with something left over for savings or a luxury of your choice.  Not all luxuries but one you can save up for.  Being able to spend without saving up or giving something else up or having a bunch of luxuries would be wealthy.  What say others?

[SapphireSlytherin]

Wealthy means never having to ask the price of something before buying it.

Wealthy means not having to "save up" for a big expense.

Wealthy means not having to get a loan to buy a car or a house.

Wealthy means not having to choose between Option A and Option B - wealthy gets both.

Wealthy means exclusive private schools without loans.

Wealthy means college education without grants/scholarships/loans.

Wealthy means not having to work while you're in school/college.

 

[justoneoftwo]

4 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Wealthy means never having to ask the price of something before buying it.

Wealthy means not having to "save up" for a big expense.

Wealthy means not having to get a loan to buy a car or a house.

Wealthy means not having to choose between Option A and Option B - wealthy gets both.

Wealthy means exclusive private schools without loans.

Wealthy means college education without grants/scholarships/loans.

Wealthy means not having to work while you're in school/college.

 

So would some but not all of these be well off but not wealthy? Or are any of the above wealthy?  And what about children who have private schools without working or loans, but then once they are done must save up for big expenses and so on?  Were they wealthy and then became not so?  

[SapphireSlytherin]

The exclusive private schools in my area charge upwards of $35k/year, plus books, plus activity fees - and this is for grade school/middle school! I'd consider being able to pay that (especially if they have two or three kids and without having to sacrifice elsewhere) wealthy. 

Wealthy children, if I'm understanding your questions, typically become wealthy adults thanks to trust funds and old money. I have a group of friends who've never had to work a day in their lives, but they have "play" jobs for "daddy's company" that keep them occupied. They truly don't understand the concept of money - and especially not saving up for a big expense.

 

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, SapphireSlytherin said:

Wealthy children, if I'm understanding your questions, typically become wealthy adults thanks to trust funds and old money. I have a group of friends who've never had to work a day in their lives, but they have "play" jobs for "daddy's company" that keep them occupied. They truly don't understand the concept of money - and especially not saving up for a big expense.

 

That was my question for you, but I know many people who were wealthy children by your definition who don't have trust funds and after schooling do have to worry about money, so what about them?  (I know many who have trust funds too, and oddly still worry about money in a way I find interesting).  

[SapphireSlytherin]

By your reasoning, then I guess they'd become "not wealthy" but I don't think that was the original question. They're not paying the tuition - their wealthy parents are. ASSuming the tuition didn't wipe out every penny in their lives, the parents would still be wealthy. Probably wealthier, since they're not shelling out about a half-million to educate each child from grades 1-12.   

 

 

[MsSaylor]

Definitions vary due to individual experiences. Especially how one grew up. To me, if someone can do all the things on @SapphireSlytherin list that would be EXTREME wealth. Like something that I have no real reference for as in I have never met someone who can do all (or probably any) of those things. But its all relative I guess.  I grew up in a working class/lower middle class situation. We always had food, adequate shelter, adequate vehicle and clothing. But we didnt have vacations, extaracurricular activities that werent free or almost free, brand name stuff etc. and its the same for my family of 5 now. My in laws make 150k a year (low COL state). They have a nice, large home in a nice neighborhood plus a modest lake home, new cars, spend a lot on clothes and collections and home goods. I think they are "very well off" or pretty much wealthy but my husband sees it as middle class, not even upper middle class really.  So it kind of depends on not only your current situation but how you grew up, and the culture/attitude around how people live and view money. 

[singsingsing]

30 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Wealthy means never having to ask the price of something before buying it.

Wealthy means not having to "save up" for a big expense.

Wealthy means not having to get a loan to buy a car or a house.

Wealthy means not having to choose between Option A and Option B - wealthy gets both.

Wealthy means exclusive private schools without loans.

Wealthy means college education without grants/scholarships/loans.

Wealthy means not having to work while you're in school/college.

 

I gotta disagree with almost all of this. You can absolutely be wealthy and still need to ask the price of a diamond ring or a convertible or a Mediterranean cruise before buying it. You can be wealthy and have to save up to buy a 4 million dollar mansion, and you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan to buy said mansion. You can be wealthy and have to choose between Option A, a month-long vacation in Italy, and Option B, buying a new summer home. Wealthy doesn't necessarily mean putting your kids in private schools, or not taking out a loan to do so if you do (I would definitely argue that you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan if you choose to send your kid to a $30k/year private school). If you're wealthy and you choose to go to the most expensive college, you may have to take out a loan or work while you're in school. I think what you're describing is extravagant wealth, like the 1% of the 1%.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I gotta disagree with almost all of this. You can absolutely be wealthy and still need to ask the price of a diamond ring or a convertible or a Mediterranean cruise before buying it. You can be wealthy and have to save up to buy a 4 million dollar mansion, and you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan to buy said mansion. You can be wealthy and have to choose between Option A, a month-long vacation in Italy, and Option B, buying a new summer home. Wealthy doesn't necessarily mean putting your kids in private schools, or not taking out a loan to do so if you do (I would definitely argue that you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan if you choose to send your kid to a $30k/year private school). If you're wealthy and you choose to go to the most expensive college, you may have to take or a loan or work while you're in school. I think what you're describing is extravagant wealth, like the 1% of the 1%.

I think I agree in part.  I don't think there are people who never have to ask the price of anything or who never chose between option a and b, but I think the list is a good start.  I think my list would be somewhere between the two.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

I guess I'm just really thinking about the creme de la creme (truly wealthy people), yes. I interact with a lot of these people on a daily basis, and it truly just blows my mind that they can just buy... anything. The look on one couple's face, when I described saving my "fun money" for six months, plus putting aside other $$$, to pay for a trip to NYC... was simply priceless. They had NO CLUE that people didn't just hop onto their 24/7 available charter JET (not a Bonanza or PiperCub or Cessna) with on-call pilots to take them to their apartment in New York (or to their home in Florida, or their pied-a-terre in London, or their 'country home' in Idaho).

But honestly, to me that's "wealthy" not just "well-off."

Well-off people can probably do SOME of the things I mentioned, but truly wealthy people could do all of them. 

 

 

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I guess I'm just really thinking about the creme de la creme (truly wealthy people), yes. I interact with a lot of these people on a daily basis, and it truly just blows my mind that they can just buy... anything. The look on one couple's face, when I described saving my "fun money" for six months, plus putting aside other $$$, to pay for a trip to NYC... was simply priceless. They had NO CLUE that people didn't just hop onto their 24/7 available charter JET (not a Bonanza or PiperCub or Cessna) with on-call pilots to take them to their apartment in New York (or to their home in Florida, or their pied-a-terre in London, or their 'country home' in Idaho).

But honestly, to me that's "wealthy" not just "well-off."

Well-off people can probably do SOME of the things I mentioned, but truly wealthy people could do all of them. 

 

 

I had a dog client who’s kids were terrible. They went to the pre-school my mother worked at. In any other place they probably would have been kicked out. But because grandpa has money they didn’t because the temple needed the the donation he was going to give. 

[Rachel333]

Wealth is all relative. If you make US$33,000 per year you are in the top 1% in the world. You can check your rank here.

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

Wealth is all relative. If you make US$33,000 per year you are in the top 1% in the world. You can check your rank here.

And you can make US$250,000 per year and be in debt up to your eyeballs, with nothing to show for it!

[AtlanticTug]

17 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I gotta disagree with almost all of this. You can absolutely be wealthy and still need to ask the price of a diamond ring or a convertible or a Mediterranean cruise before buying it. You can be wealthy and have to save up to buy a 4 million dollar mansion, and you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan to buy said mansion. You can be wealthy and have to choose between Option A, a month-long vacation in Italy, and Option B, buying a new summer home. Wealthy doesn't necessarily mean putting your kids in private schools, or not taking out a loan to do so if you do (I would definitely argue that you can be wealthy and still need to take out a loan if you choose to send your kid to a $30k/year private school). If you're wealthy and you choose to go to the most expensive college, you may have to take out a loan or work while you're in school. I think what you're describing is extravagant wealth, like the 1% of the 1%.

Yeah I agree with you, that original list describes the ultra-wealthy, like the .5 or .1%.

We also need to differentiate between wealth and income. For example, you could be a family of very high income earners, which I consider us to be, but not have wealth. The reasons are usually that you didn't come from money and therefore you have no accumulated assets or wealth. Once you get to old age you probably WILL be wealthy but you are not wealthy at 35 or 40. People may think you are if you are pulling in $500K-$1M a year as a couple but at that rate in urban areas you are still living with a mortgage, spending a lot of education, etc.

Most of my clients are the ultra wealthy. They have private jets (not the shitty planes the Duggars fly), one once told me that it's a lot harder than I would imagine (as if I would imagine) to build a house on your own private island in the Bahamas. 

I think a lot of people who are lower or middle class think that the upper middle class is wealthy but the truth is that they are just very, very comfortable.

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

Yeah I agree with you, that original list describes the ultra-wealthy, like the .5 or .1%.

We also need to differentiate between wealth and income. For example, you could be a family of very high income earners, which I consider us to be, but not have wealth. The reasons are usually that you didn't come from money and therefore you have no accumulated assets or wealth. Once you get to old age you probably WILL be wealthy but you are not wealthy at 35 or 40. People may think you are if you are pulling in $500K-$1M a year as a couple but at that rate in urban areas you are still living with a mortgage, spending a lot of education, etc.

Most of my clients are the ultra wealthy. They have private jets (not the shitty planes the Duggars fly), one once told me that it's a lot harder than I would imagine (as if I would imagine) to build a house on your own private island in the Bahamas. 

I think a lot of people who are lower or middle class think that the upper middle class is wealthy but the truth is that they are just very, very comfortable.

I get what you're saying about accumulated assets and wealth, but if you're pulling in $500k-$1M/year, you're definitely wealthy. Or use another adjective if you like - rich. Affluent. Upper class. If your clients are ultra wealthy and have private jets and islands in the Bahamas, of course you're going to think you're not wealthy compared to them. But the reality is that compared to the vast majority of people, you very much are.

Wealthy people tend to have a problem admitting that they're wealthy, like it's a dirty word, or a pejorative, or something. It's not. It's indicative of privilege, and people are uncomfortable admitting their own privilege. Being privileged in and of itself is not a negative thing and says next to nothing about you as a person; but refusing to acknowledge your privilege is a problem.

[rainbowbabycakes]

On 11/25/2017 at 1:51 AM, Rio said:

This is bad. Our neighbors named their twin girls Diane and Diana, which we thought quite lame.  Phillip and Filip is even worse. 

my sister went to school with a Jennie/Jeanie pair and a Roxanne/Roxanna pair

[singsingsing]

I can't believe people do that to their kids, if only because I'm obsessed with names and there are so many possible names I'd want to give my hypothetical children! I used to think I wanted like 12 kids - then I realized I just wanted to name them all. Thank God I discovered The Sims. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I can't believe people do that to their kids, if only because I'm obsessed with names and there are so many possible names I'd want to give my hypothetical children! I used to think I wanted like 12 kids - then I realized I just wanted to name them all. Thank God I discovered The Sims. 

I gave my favorite names to my cats. And then I had a baby. I actually considered still naming the baby the same name as the cat. For about two months. lol

[AtlanticTug]

24 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Being privileged in and of itself is not a negative thing and says next to nothing about you as a person; but refusing to acknowledge your privilege is a problem.

When you live in the most expensive real estate area in the country and it can cost you $3M to buy a 3 bedroom place (not luxurious) where you still have a 30 min commute to work and you and your spouse could each have $250K in student loans because that's how much law school or med school cost and your childcare costs are enormous because you are privileged enough to work 80 hrs per week...then yes it appears like wealth but the truth is you are actually not left with much monthly if you are diligent about paying down debt aggressively. And the huge debt load (either renting a $10K/month place or buying a crazy expensive place + the student loans) don't allow you to life a life of wealth.

I have no issue with admitting being in the top 1% in terms of INCOME but not in terms of wealth, it's a pretty well defined concept. When I no longer have debt, it will be a totally different story.

[SapphireSlytherin]

30 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

people are uncomfortable admitting their own privilege

This is true. My husband and I do have a lot of privilege, and we are incredibly aware of how truly privileged we are. Mainly because we've been through periods of sheer destitution (as I've mentioned before). But we've worked our asses off to get to where we are. We are comfortable. And we finally  - FINALLY -  have "breathing room" for the first time in our 20-year marriage.

Our current financial situation is due to a LOT of hard work, combined with some good fortune - not "fortune" in inheritance or money dropping into our laps or finding buried treasure, but in having the right network in place. That network has allowed both of us to find/acquire jobs that we wouldn't otherwise have been aware of.

Right now, GryffindorDisappointment is going through a financial phase that I'm not going to bail her out of - because I know once she gets past the current situation, she'll have a better grasp on what she SHOULD do and will have a strong understanding of what she needs to do to get herself in a comfortable financial position.

DH and I went through that same phase, and we dug ourselves out of being $150k in debt. It took twelve years of frugal living and doing without and no vacations and eating cheap food. The best part about that is - I'm so used to living frugally that I don't spend too much money--even now, when I can--on anything. I still shop sales. I still use coupons. I still find the cheapest gas station. I still watch EVERY PENNY. 

So, yeah - we have privilege, but compared to others - we don't.

Comparison is truly the thief of joy. When we had nothing other than the roof over our heads and a 20-year-old car, we were jealous of others - but there were people who were jealous of us. It's all relative.

It took me a LONG TIME to get over the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. Just because their house is bigger or their car is more expensive or their clothes are all name brand, doesn't mean they're better than I am. 

[MsSaylor]

Yeah i agree tbat you can have a high income and not be wealthy or have a very good standard of living. When i hear about how much people pay for a basic standard of living in some areas It makes me grateful for what I have. We live in NE (in the capital city though). My husband has an entry level state job in accounting so its decent but not glamorous at all and I work 25-30 hours delivering pizza to supplement our income. Im a sahm during the day cuz we cant afford daycare for 2 littles and a school ager. Anyways we can afford a basic lifestyle, modest older home, one decent car and a beater, cable, phone plan, Y membership but thats where the luxeries stop. We both have student loans but they are about 60k together and we pay about $150 a month total. I know a family who lives in NY. They have much better jobs than us, editor and lawyer, but they have a more stressful and tough lifestyle; crushing student debt, small townhome with no yard, insanely expensive daycare that is pretty sketchy for their two small kids. It just seems so hard. Like we dont have much money but i can still take my kids to the parks, zoos, museums, movies sometimes. We don t have to work 12 hour days with hour long commutes. We get to spend time together and I think thats worth a lot. 

[singsingsing]

19 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

This is true. My husband and I do have a lot of privilege, and we are incredibly aware of how truly privileged we are. Mainly because we've been through periods of sheer destitution (as I've mentioned before). But we've worked our asses off to get to where we are. We are comfortable. And we finally  - FINALLY -  have "breathing room" for the first time in our 20-year marriage.

Our current financial situation is due to a LOT of hard work, combined with some good fortune - not "fortune" in inheritance or money dropping into our laps or finding buried treasure, but in having the right network in place. That network has allowed both of us to find/acquire jobs that we wouldn't otherwise have been aware of.

Right now, GryffindorDisappointment is going through a financial phase that I'm not going to bail her out of - because I know once she gets past the current situation, she'll have a better grasp on what she SHOULD do and will have a strong understanding of what she needs to do to get herself in a comfortable financial position.

DH and I went through that same phase, and we dug ourselves out of being $150k in debt. It took twelve years of frugal living and doing without and no vacations and eating cheap food. The best part about that is - I'm so used to living frugally that I don't spend too much money--even now, when I can--on anything. I still shop sales. I still use coupons. I still find the cheapest gas station. I still watch EVERY PENNY. 

So, yeah - we have privilege, but compared to others - we don't.

Comparison is truly the thief of joy. When we had nothing other than the roof over our heads and a 20-year-old car, we were jealous of others - but there were people who were jealous of us. It's all relative.

It took me a LONG TIME to get over the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. Just because their house is bigger or their car is more expensive or their clothes are all name brand, doesn't mean they're better than I am. 

Yep. I have a disability, and I'm currently unemployed and living on social assistance. Compared to a lot of people, I am not privileged and certainly not wealthy. Compared to the majority of human beings on earth, I am insanely privileged and wealthy! I have no problem accepting that I'm 'poor' compared to the median income in my area, or that I'm 'wealthy' compared to the average person on earth. I find that there's definitely the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" thing, but there's also this thing where people feel like they have to prove they're not rich. But it's not a competition. Being financially well-off doesn't mean you don't struggle, have to make sacrifices, and suffer. And you can been financially poor and still be outrageously privileged. Despite the fact that I have no income and am disabled, I would still guestimate that I'm probably in the top 5-10% of sheer 'privilege' where I live due to a lot of other factors such as youth, physical health, skills, race, language, support system, upbringing, education, etc.

[ViolaSebastian]

45 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I gave my favorite names to my cats. And then I had a baby. I actually considered still naming the baby the same name as the cat. For about two months. lol

I had an acquaintance (child of my mothers’ very good friend) who did this. Both cat and baby were named Sabrina. No shame in their game. 

[Jana814]

I was raised in a relatively wealthy area. When I first stared middle school ( 7th grade) I met other people who were not as lucky as me and my same town classmates.  It was weird when a new friend would come to my house and call it a mansion even though it is far from one. It was mostly because their houses were 1/4 the size of mine.