Here’s why right-wing Christians think they are America’s most persecuted

[hoipolloi]

Our own @mirele pointed out elsewhere why the homophobe baker prevailing at SCOTUS could have major ramifications for non-fundies and our peace & enjoyment of life:

Quote

If the cake baker can get around state civil rights laws, how long will it be before [Steve] Anderson [a.k.a. Pissing Preacher or PP] and his crew try to provoke a trespassing case so they can use the First Amendment right to practice their religion to overrule a landlord or HOA's right to keep solicitors out?

The linked comment provides the background to her observations but IMO, the private community of townhomes & their HOA should NOT be the same as a baker who markets his services to the public, except for those he hates.

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, older than allosaurs said:

It's only in the long view that it's obvious to most that they were heroes doing something important.  We cheapen their sacrifice if we expect everyone to be able to take those stands.

I can't put my finger quite on it, but this phrase doesn't sit well with me.  And it is not "only in the long view" that it is obvious that they were heroes doing something important.  Also, while certainly not everyone is suited to the front lines, I think it is fine to expect everyone to take a stand for what they believe is morally right.  

Those kids at the lunch counter were, in fact, carefully selected activists, as was Rosa Parks.  Trained warriors in a battle, if you will.  Behind them were many other activists working hard to gain wider spread support in different ways.

It cheapens the Civil Rights Movement to think that it was just a few very brave people who decided not to give up their seats on a bus, or to sit in at a lunch counter, or suddenly to decide to take a walk to Selma.  In fact it was a planned, organised, and well developed campaign.  

It was a strategic choice to use non-violent tactics like civil disobedience, boycotts, and marches. 

Civil disobedience and civil resistance movements only work when there are large numbers willing to put themselves on the line.  And, yes, there are casualties along the way and it takes time.  And people learn from the mistakes of others.

Whether you agree with them or not, Act Up has done a lot of research and has a good manual on how to prepare for non-violent actions.

 http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/HistoryNV.html

 

 

[AlwaysExcited]

... and I read the title and just wanted to suggest that "America's Most Persecuted" should be a reality show. Similar to "America's Next Top Model" or however that thing is called, but tasks would include things like who can write the whiniest Facebook post, throw a biggest tantrum over Starbuck's coffee cup design and make the best attack on someone on Twitter. 

Then I read the thread, and it just makes me kind of sad. 

[Palimpsest]

23 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Then I read the thread, and it just makes me kind of sad.

It is making quite a few of us sad that we are even having this discussion on FJ.  On the other hand, some really good thoughts have come out of it.

Swings and roundabouts.

[SilverBeach]

I took a much-needed break from this thread. I didn't think cake wars would rear its ugly head again. I burned out arguing about that two years ago.

What I really can't wrap my head around is a minority co-signing discriminatory bullshit, but that's not new either.

As a young man, Martin Luther King was not supported by more than a few older ministers and leaders who felt he was "moving too fast". Slavery had ended nearly a hundred years ago, but he was moving too fast. 

His Black opponents were so risk-averse, and so acculturated to institutional racism, that they willingly accepted second class status. We call those "Uncle Toms", we being black folks that is.

Fear and self-interest controlled them, coupled with a lack of self-respect. Thank God for those who rose up and who rise up, not fearing confrontation in the name of what is good and right. They make this world a little less shitty.

I am 62 and came of age when Bull Connor and his ilk brutalizing my people was nightly news. I grew up in Chicago and remember MLK getting spat upon and stoned marching through racist Gage Park.

I could go on and on, but the point is, much sacrifice was made on my behalf and I will never willingly put myself on the back of the bus. If you are happy there, cool.

I also feel strongly about folks that don't share my cisgender heterosexuality having the exact same rights and privileges that I do as a citizen and human being. 

It's interesting about Rosa Parks, because no, she wasn't the first to refuse to give up her seat. 

To avoid any distractions or victim-blaming, the NAACP waited for someone who was above reproach to come along and be defiant. RP and her husband were pillars of the community.

I hope somebody here has learned that owning a business, property, or anything else does not confer unfettered rights to the owner. You may own a rental property, but run afoul of fair housing and tenants rights laws and see how that works out for you. 

Ok, this is more than enough and I apologize for the lengthy post. This is a hill to die on as far as I am concerned.

All yall have a wonderful weekend!

 

[PennySycamore]

@SilverBeach,   Brava for a wonderful and wise post!  

 

[Fun Undies]

When I first saw this thread, I wasn't expecting it to go where it did . . . I just read all three pages and whoa.  Y'all said it better than I could!

To reflect on the point brought up by OP, fundie Christians are SO focused on persecution and how christianity is dying: because their brand of Christianity *is* dying.  Even though the majority of America is still Christian, fundies don't recognize "heathen Christians" and/or Catholics ~ so yes, their version of their faith is dying out.

Also, a good point to remember is they believe *very* strongly in the second coming of Christ.  The more the world is in chaos, the more they are persecuted, the closer they perceive themselves to seeing Jesus in the sky.

However here's the difference of religious persecution vs what they're experiencing  (in case any fundies read this - I'll sum it up quick) . . .

CHRISTIANS: "I believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and try to live my life by his testament and words."

SOMEONE: "You can go suck balls."

CHRISTIANS: "I'm being persecuted for my religious beliefs!"

VERSUS 

FUNDIES: "I'm going to hide behind the facade of religion, in order to force my own views of patriarchy, woeful ignorance, and though I'll never admit it - FEAR of anybody different than me - to overturn as many basic human civil rights for as many people as I feel fit.  But remember it's not me, it's just what Jesus wants."

EVERYONE: "Go choke on some balls!"

FUNDIES: "I'm SEVERELY being persecuted for my faith!!11!1!!111  let me post this on twitter."

Spoiler

 

[Beermeet]

I didn't know where to post this and wanted to share with you all my Episcopalian church experience today.  I picked this thread because it needs a little love and light

So, my grandpa-in-law's ( aka: just grandpa)  funeral mass was today at his Episcopalian church.  A 100 year old church with original stained glass and light fixtures that were converted to electric.   It was such a nice service, the pastor took time to explain things knowing not all may be familiar.  Very similar to Catholic,  as a matter of fact, when they recited the Apostles Creed they said the " we believe in the holy Catholic church"  part, interesting.  He also explained communion and invited any baptized person from any faith to recieve it!  I thought that was fantastic in it's inclusiveness.  Of course,  a blessing was extended if anyone did not want actual communion.   I went for it as it was grandpa's favorite part of mass.  It was also amazing to see a woman in charge of the bible!!!!!  Eleventy!!!   

We also met my bro in laws boyfriend for the first time.  Bro just came out a few months ago and that went wonderfully for all!  BF grew up Roman Catholic, as did I, and we were chatting about his acceptance at this church and the female being a major part of the service.  Made both of us happy!  Overall a good day!  To me, it's all about acceptance, equality, and love.  I got a good dose of that today

I would like to see society at large not accept discrimination in any form.  Even if it's technically legal.  Legality is not an excuse to be a shit person.  And, it should not be tolerated.  Peace!

 

[Snowless]

On 9/21/2017 at 8:58 PM, Palimpsest said:

However, I have the right to do business with anyone I want.  They don't get to turn my business down because I am the wrong religion, color, sex, gender, sexual orientation - whatever.

Right on the money!  I should mention there are some places in my part of the country that have displayed the ichthys symbol (the “Christian fish” symbol) prominently on their business signs, and I’ve always wondered if those places would refuse to do business with me because I casually said I was an atheist.  (I should mention that I am a white woman who does not resemble any sort of minority...I just happen to be an atheist.).  Either way, I think it’s incredibly wrong to do that. If anything, the customers should have the power to decide who to do business with, not the other way around.  Turning away potential customers, no matter what their whatever is, is not only bad business, it is unethical.

[Bethella]

5 hours ago, Beermeet said:

 as a matter of fact, when they recited the Apostles Creed they said the " we believe in the holy Catholic church"  part, interesting.

I'm glad you had a good experience. In this case it isn't Catholic but catholic (little c) which means universal or general, refering to Christianity as a whole. 

http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/26769_70418_ENG_HTM.htm

[Beermeet]

@Bethella.  Thank you so much!  Quite beautiful really.  So interesting, too bad that way of thinking is rare.  Now I understand the communion at the church better.  It was crystal clear that all Christians were one there and therefore could partake of the body of Christ when it was offered.   I love it, fundies could learn from it.  The blessing is nice too.  If I were in temple or mosque and something like that was offered I'd accept.  Good vibes are good vibes, man!  

[Lurky]

This Washington Post article, which is in the context of the Black Lives Matter last year, talks about how public feeling has often been against civil rights protests while they're going on, but in retrospect, everyone agrees they were the right thing to do. 

It makes me admire people who do protest and fight even more, because the vitriol from the media is so horrible - the brave men choosing to Take The Knee in the NFL getting berated by the President, which is crazy. 

I am so grateful to all the civil rights protesters, from all the movements, and I hope I will be as strong if I'm ever in a situation facing direct discrimination.  I have marched for my rights, as a gay woman, and in unity for my BME sisters and brothers, and I hope I always will.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/

[Palimpsest]

31 minutes ago, Lurky said:

This Washington Post article, which is in the context of the Black Lives Matter last year, talks about how public feeling has often been against civil rights protests while they're going on, but in retrospect, everyone agrees they were the right thing to do. 

Some people don't like anything that upsets the status quo.  They particularly don't like it when it involves civil disobedience.  I was watching  "Vietnam" (Ken Burns) last night, which covered the protests against the war and the draft and the counter-protests.  Nasty stuff.

More examples of people standing up against injustice using non-violent methods - and how it takes a long time to persuade the majority to be on your side and win.  (Not necessarily in chronological order and all dates approximate.)

 - woman's suffrage movements in the UK and USA late 1800 - early 20 century.

- The Indian independence movement

- WWII nonviolent actions against the Nazis: White Rose and the Rosenstrasse; Danish "negotiation under protest"; Norwegian civil disobedience; and many attempts to save Jewish people from the Holocaust.

Within my living memory:

- Civil Rights movement in the US, obviously.

- Czechoslovakia in 1968 - 1969, Dubcek stayed in power for eight months against the odds.

- The Genocide Demands in the US (late 80s early 90s) resisting forced relocation of Navajo people.

- Solidarity Movement in Poland succeeded in 1989 after about 10 years struggle.

- Ousting Markos in the Philippines People Power movement 1989ish.

- Ending Communist dictatorships in the former Czechoslovakia, and in East Germany, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania 1990ish.

- Anti-Apartheid Movement succeeds 1990.  Yay, Mandela and all the others who were imprisoned for years.

- Milosevic finally ousted in Serbia around 2000.  

- the Orange revolution in Ukraine.

- People Power Two in the Phillippines.  Bye, Estrada.

- Arab Spring nonviolent uprisings, but the struggle continues.

[hoipolloi]

As a rule, protesters exercising civil disobedience are generally despised till it's over and everyone else is enjoying the fruits of their labor & struggle.

 

[RosyDaisy]

We also have to realize that when we do choose to protest or sue, the positive results are likely to be in the future, not for us personally. Those kids who sat in at the lunch counters and were abused, sloshed with ketchup and mustard, and then arrested--they didn't get lunch. They mostly got jail, lost employment, threats to their families and mental anguish. It's only in the long view that it's obvious to most that they were heroes doing something important. We cheapen their sacrifice if we expect everyone to be able to take those stands.

In this day and age, it doesn't take nearly as long to see change. You have a huge portion of the majority that work alongside the minority, including celebrities and people with money and prestige. We also have social media. Never underestimate the power of social media. I don't think it cheapens anyone's sacrifice to expect people to take a stand. I think it shows respect to their sacrifice. That the sacrifice meant something. That nobody should ever have to face those hardships and discrimination again. It's when we don't take a stand that their sacrifice means nothing.

[Beermeet]

@RosyDaisy. Agreed!  Since I do hate the injustice of racism and discrimination and oppression in all walks of life, yes, I definitely challenge myself to stand for what is right.  If I am to encounter such a situation.  I appreciated when a man has stepped in on my behalf when I was being low key harassed  ( micro aggression style) at a gas station.  We need each other, those of us who care, to join together and stamp this shit out, make it not the norm.  Just look at protests now when it comes to say, BLM.  There are white people joining compared to 1960's where a sea of black only faces in the marches.  It's a beautiful thing.  Still having to do it sucks.  Just like women's rights, men are marching with us.  Progress in that department!

45 is trying to bring us back but it seems that most of just are not having that.  Man I hate that orange douche.

[acheronbeach]

On 9/16/2017 at 3:42 PM, feministxtian said:

A fucking wedding baker is a dime a dozen damn near everywhere. I lived in a little town (population 3000) in bumfuck Indiana. There were at least 5 bakers to choose from in town and if you wanted to go over to the city (about 10 miles away) there were probably a few hundred including Costco, Sam's, Walmart and other grocery stores who did cakes. 

I know this is a little late to the party, but I'm pretty stunned at the idea that because you're privileged enough to live in a fairly urban area, that everyone must.  

I have a couple of friends who literally have to drive six hours to get to the closest Wal-Mart from their town (when the highway's open, anyhow).  Let me assure you, if one business owner discriminated against them, they would have no legitimate alternatives.  That's a bumfuck small town, not a place where you can drive twenty minutes to get to Costco.  

[EowynW]

I don't get the outrage over the NFL players taking a knee! Especially when, on average, one player every 7 days is arrested for violence toward a woman, man, animal, or for drugs or alcohol, yet they are released with a slap on the wrist and sent off to play ball. No social media outrages or boycotts for that. 

[smittykins]

Plus it’s not like they’re giving a double-middle-finger salute(despite what some people may think).

[BobTheWalrus]

On 9/22/2017 at 3:06 PM, formergothardite said:

https://www.aclu.org/cases/charlie-craig-and-david-mullins-v-masterpiece-cakeshop

Nope. In this case the couples just wanted to purchase something the bakery sold, wedding cakes. They were denied service simply because they were gay.

I guess the argument is still the same, that you feel you can't provide something that celebrates something you think is morally wrong? But then of course you'd have to make sure that you didn't make cakes for people remarrying after divorce, no baby shower cakes for unmarried mothers etc etc etc.

My personal view on this is that you can't legislate morality or religion. I am a Christian, but I wouldn't expect other people to live by the values I do, because, well, why would they? You can't live in a bubble. People at your office swear. Other kids at school talk to your kids about sex. Your neighbours get divorced. The sweet, trustworthy teenage boy from your Good Christian Homeschool Co-op turns out to be a child molester. Because guess what? The problem isn't "the gays", "the blacks", "the liberals", the problem is you and your heart. Every one of us has a choice whether we're going to live loving and constructive lives, or not. And every time I read stuff like this, part of me wants to get into the argument, and part of me is just sad that my Christian brothers and sisters show so little grace to others when the whole point of our faith is how much grace we've been shown by God.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, BobTheWalrus said:

I guess the argument is still the same, that you feel you can't provide something that celebrates something you think is morally wrong?

So you do think that stores should be able to deny service to black people or mixed race couples as long as they think it would be morally wrong? 

[SilverBeach]

@Beermeet, there were many non-blacks marching for civil rights back in the sixties, including Bernie Sanders. Lots of Catholic religious too. Often, the non-blacks were more villified than blacks for participating in civil rights activities, hence the reprehensible term "ni*@er lover". 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

So you do think that stores should be able to deny service to black people or mixed race couples as long as they think it would be morally wrong? 

Um, no. This is what @BobTheWalrus said:

7 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

My personal view on this is that you can't legislate morality or religion. 

(my bold)

Wouldn't that be the opposite of thinking that a store should be able to deny service to black people or mixed race couples as long as they think it would be morally wrong? Unless I read one or both of y'all's posts wrong.

[Lurky]

For the people here who think LGB people should just get over not being served, do you think this is this ok too?

 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Wouldn't that be the opposite of thinking that a store should be able to deny service to black people or mixed race couples as long as they think it would be morally wrong? Unless I read one or both of y'all's posts wrong.

I could have totally read it wrong, @BobTheWalrus will have to clarify if she thinks bakers should be forced to bake cakes for couples they think are morally wrong, whether it be mixed race couples, gay couples, or black couples.  I was reading it as Bob thought the bakers shouldn't have to because Bob viewed putting the names of a gay couple as being forced to create a slogan for something they thought was morally wrong. 

Quote

The same with the baker. As I understand it, the issue wasn't making a cake for a gay person, because that would obviously be discrimination. It was decorating a cake with a slogan promoting something the baker disagreed with.

and

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It's not that baking is frivolous or anything like that. It's the distinction between serving a person, and that person asking me to agree with or promote something I think is morally wrong.

When I questioned more she said her argument was just the same as long as they made sure they didn't make cakes for divorced couples or unwed mothers. 

Quote

I guess the argument is still the same, that you feel you can't provide something that celebrates something you think is morally wrong? But then of course you'd have to make sure that you didn't make cakes for people remarrying after divorce, no baby shower cakes for unmarried mothers etc etc etc.

Hopefully @BobTheWalrus can clear it up with a simple yes bakers should be forced to bake cakes for gay weddings, or no they shouldn't. I could have totally misread what she was meaning.