Joy and Austin: Back in Arkansas?

[wikinggirl]

1 hour ago, OyToTheVey said:

I was in Japan 2 years ago. They have a service where you can rent or buy a yukata( not a kimono, there's a difference*) and they do your hair and you can walk around Gion in it and the locals love when gijin do it. They took so many of our pictures. Mostly cuz it was a large group of non Japanese walking around in yukatas enjoying themselves. I still have it. It's beautiful! It's white/grey with a purple butterfly floral design. I've been trying to figure out a way to frame it and put it up on my wall. I'm not even sure if it would be considered appropriation or appreciation. We LOVED it. The Japanese didn't mind at all. They stopped us to take photos.  

They have something similar in Korea, you can rent a hanbok for a couple of hours, and if you do you get free access to the palaces in Seoul. It's pretty common to do it with your girlfriends, or as a couple (and rent a photographer)

 

[Greendoor]

I think the front hug is normal and the side hug is better than  .

[OldFadedStar]

1 hour ago, cptbailey said:

That sounds amazing! Where in Japan was this? Something I'd love to do if I ever get the chance to travel to Japan again. What an amazing country.

As has already been mentioned, there are a few places to do so in Kyoto. Though I know there were a few places you could in Tokyo too. 

I love Japan so much. I would move back in a heartbeat, I lived there for 4 years.

[CorruptionInc.]

11 hours ago, Smoochie said:

Article/short video in People online about Joy and Austin breaking their courtship rules ... are you ready ... they front hugged when they got engaged.     Ummm did you see Ben and Jessa's proposal, THAT was a front hug,  yours was a kinda awkward side kinda front hug!  (Jessa and Ben just kept looking down when Daphne brought it up, made me chuckle)

People must be having a slow "news" day. 

[candygirl200413]

Now I'm thinking I might have gotten a Yukata instead of a kimono when I went to Tokyo so thank you for the explanation.@OyToTheVey. I am also someone in love with Japan and am itching to go back to visit because I fell in love.

It also made me mad how they were feeling so restricted by the physical contact. Honestly surprised how besides Josh how they seem fine assimilating into a physical relationship with their spouse.

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

8 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

snipped

The thing about kimonos is that kimono making is an art that people spend their lives perfecting but it's a dying industry and kimono makers actively want Westerners to buy their kimonos, so people saying that buying a kimono is cultural appropriation is actually hurting kimono makers.

 snipped

I guess this is where I'm a bit stuck in applying my principles to my own life. I don't wear a Star of David, because I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I never bought a dream catcher when they were trendy because I am not Native American and don't share their belief system(s). But my small city has more and more stores and restaurants being opened by people of different ethnicities and from different countries.

So, if I go eat at an Ethiopian restaurant or get a Vietnamese baguette for lunch? What if I tried getting some spices from an Indian market to learn to cook tiki masala? I can't imagine dressing in a sari, but what about buying some pretty earrings?

Then, how could many immigrants make their living, if not by selling the foods and styles of their culture? If only people of Indian origin should buy at the Indian market, the owner won't have as many customers in a predominantly white city.

[Rachel333]

7 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I guess this is where I'm a bit stuck in applying my principles to my own life. I don't wear a Star of David, because I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I never bought a dream catcher when they were trendy because I am not Native American and don't share their belief system(s). But my small city has more and more stores and restaurants being opened by people of different ethnicities and from different countries.

So, if I go eat at an Ethiopian restaurant or get a Vietnamese baguette for lunch? What if I tried getting some spices from an Indian market to learn to cook tiki masala? I can't imagine dressing in a sari, but what about buying some pretty earrings?

Then, how could many immigrants make their living, if not by selling the foods and styles of their culture? If only people of Indian origin should buy at the Indian market, the owner won't have as many customers in a predominantly white city.

I think those are good examples. If you're buying things from people who are actually part of that culture that's totally different from buying a dreamcatcher in some kitschy store where no one involved in making or selling it is Native American. And that reminds me of a picture I saw recently of some really egregious cultural appropriation regarding dreamcatchers...

Spoiler

 

[SweetFellowshipper]

16 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I guess this is where I'm a bit stuck in applying my principles to my own life. I don't wear a Star of David, because I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I never bought a dream catcher when they were trendy because I am not Native American and don't share their belief system(s). But my small city has more and more stores and restaurants being opened by people of different ethnicities and from different countries.

So, if I go eat at an Ethiopian restaurant or get a Vietnamese baguette for lunch? What if I tried getting some spices from an Indian market to learn to cook tiki masala? I can't imagine dressing in a sari, but what about buying some pretty earrings?

Then, how could many immigrants make their living, if not by selling the foods and styles of their culture? If only people of Indian origin should buy at the Indian market, the owner won't have as many customers in a predominantly white city.

You're not making money off of those things, you're GIVING money to someone. A big aspect of cultural appropriation is co-opting, repackaging and commodifying something as an exotic 'other.' Selling and misrepresenting something that isn't yours to sell.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Rachel333--That's incredibly awful!! 

ETA--Thank you, both @Rachel333 and @SweetFellowshipper. That's a good point about which way money is flowing. (I still don't feel brave enough to wear the cloth a family member brought me from Kenya as a skirt, though.)

[LacyMay]

10 hours ago, Smoochie said:

LOL Carm, I was born in Stephenville on the USAFB, back in the day.  My mom is from NL and my dad from the US, so I am an official Newfie.  Seen many a screech in!

Many a person takes the 'Newfieisms' a bit to far sometimes.

I was wondering when I would find more Newfoundlanders! I lived there for 10 years and met my Husband there (his Grandfather actually worked on the base in Stephenville) 

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

So, if I go eat at an Ethiopian restaurant or get a Vietnamese baguette for lunch? What if I tried getting some spices from an Indian market to learn to cook tiki masala? I can't imagine dressing in a sari, but what about buying some pretty earrings?

Then, how could many immigrants make their living, if not by selling the foods and styles of their culture? If only people of Indian origin should buy at the Indian market, the owner won't have as many customers in a predominantly white city.

This article has a pretty great explanation of why buying things that aren't culturally/religiously significant is completely fine. 

http://apihtawikosisan.com/hall-of-shame/an-open-letter-to-non-natives-in-headdresses/

As people have said upthread, trying to be culturally sensitive isn't about "never do anything to do with a culture outside your own", it's about context, and power.  It's fine for me to buy spices and experiment with making Indian food, but if, for example, as a white woman with no connection to India, I then decided I was going to set up an Indian restaurant, saying I was making the most authentic Indian food you'll ever taste, for example, that would be on appropriative. 

[OyToTheVey]

8 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

Now I'm thinking I might have gotten a Yukata instead of a kimono when I went to Tokyo so thank you for the explanation.@OyToTheVey. I am also someone in love with Japan and am itching to go back to visit because I fell in love.

 

That's how it was explained to us by the Japanese tour guide. Apparently almost every kimono like garment you see on the street is actually a yukata. I loved it there. I'm already making plans to go back. It's such an amazing place. Tokyo is the absolute perfect example of how something old can exist right next to something built 2 years ago. Everywhere you look you see thousand year old houses next to a skyscraper. 

8 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

 I don't wear a Star of David, because I'm not Jewish or Israeli. 

 

Jill wearing the Star of David and then spewing all her Gothard crap is complete appropriation. That's pretty offensive. It's offensive to me because most of us and Israel in general are very liberal in our thinking. 

[seraaa]

11 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

What if I tried getting some spices from an Indian market to learn to cook tiki masala?

There's a good chance that Tikka Masala was invented in Glasgow.  Or Birmingham, depending on who you ask (by British Asians, so it's a great example of actual cultural fusion - or cultural exchange).

 

[justoneoftwo]

28 minutes ago, seraaa said:

There's a good chance that Tikka Masala was invented in Glasgow.  Or Birmingham, depending on who you ask (by British Asians, so it's a great example of actual cultural fusion - or cultural exchange).

 

The point remains.  

I have always wondered why my family cooking different cultures food seems okay to everyone but my wearing a sari causes people to be upset.  I bought it from an Indian shop, I wear it (or used to) to formal occasions because I love it and its a beautiful formal outfit.  

I certainly wouldn't wear a religious symbol, but its clothing, its used as clothing, its a formal one so its used as formal clothing.  I really don't know what is so wrong about that.

[Rachel333]

On the topic of Japanese clothing, does anyone else know the word "obi" primarily because of crossword puzzles?  It's kind of like Asta, Oleo/olio, alee, tor, etui, ewer, aerie, etc. that way.

[SapphireSlytherin]

6 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

On the topic of Japanese clothing, does anyone else know the word "obi" primarily because of crossword puzzles?  It's kind of like Asta, Oleo/olio, alee, tor, etui, ewer, aerie, etc. that way.

Very much so.

I used to work the NYTimes crossword every Sunday (in ink) but I haven't done any word puzzles in years.

[bananabread]

I just personally feel like the whole cultural appropriation movement is a way to force arbitrary social rules on other people. It's fine to buy from this kind of vendor, but not that kind of vendor. It's okay if you eat it yourself, but not if you open up a restaurant. It's okay to do something unless someone from that culture informs you that they're offended, and then you should apologize and do as they ask. It's all completely based on these intangible feelings of discomfort or offensiveness, which are really poor barometers for how to run a free society. "Cultural appropriation" just feels like censorship to me, and unnecessary interference in the free market. If you don't like something, don't buy it. Problem solved!

(Is my inner Libertarian showing? )

[HarryPotterFan]

3 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

Jill wearing the Star of David and then spewing all her Gothard crap is complete appropriation. That's pretty offensive. It's offensive to me because most of us and Israel in general are very liberal in our thinking. 

That always bothered me so much. And she has no respect for Jewish traditions or culture, or anything different than her own. I was so glad when dirty Jesus gave her a necklace because she finally took it off. It's like she wanted people to think she was Jewish while thinking we're going to hell.

[OyToTheVey]

7 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I just personally feel like the whole cultural appropriation movement is a way to force arbitrary social rules on other people. It's fine to buy from this kind of vendor, but not that kind of vendor. It's okay if you eat it yourself, but not if you open up a restaurant. It's okay to do something unless someone from that culture informs you that they're offended, and then you should apologize and do as they ask. It's all completely based on these intangible feelings of discomfort or offensiveness, which are really poor barometers for how to run a free society. "Cultural appropriation" just feels like censorship to me, and unnecessary interference in the free market. If you don't like something, don't buy it. Problem solved!

(Is my inner Libertarian showing? )

The food thing I never understood. I have friends that are chefs. They study for years and years to understand food and flavors. Are they not allowed to open restaurants that reflect their education? I do agree that a lot of what people say is appropriation really isn't. It all sounds like PC stuff to me. 

[OyToTheVey]

14 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

That always bothered me so much. And she has no respect for Jewish traditions or culture, or anything different than her own. I was so glad when dirty Jesus gave her a necklace because she finally took it off. It's like she wanted people to think she was Jewish while thinking we're going to hell.

It's just so fucked up! Sorry there's no other way to phrase that. I don't care if someone wears a garment made in Africa or Leiderhosen. Wear whatever you want. But that's like me wearing a rosary around my neck and then saying burn all Catholics. It's highly offensive and inappropriate. Every time I saw that Star of David it pissed me off to no end. They have no respect for the Jewish religion.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:16 AM, socalrules said:

I don't get the Switzerland part

Unless they've discovered Francis Schaeffer, I don't get Switzerland either. L'abiri was a Christian mission that almost became a counter-culture site in the 60's and early 70s. Francis and wife Edith are favorites of many on the right, but they were very intellectual--especially compared to Gothard (well, honestly, a my cats are way more intellectual than Gothard).....

[zygote373]

25 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I just personally feel like the whole cultural appropriation movement is a way to force arbitrary social rules on other people.

The rules may feel arbitrary if you're not familiar with them, but the underlying theme is just to respect other cultures. No one is expecting everyone to know every rule ahead of time or to please every individual, but it can come across as a little tone deaf to do some of the things discussed above that have come up a lot in general cultural conversation.

Free social interactions doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with no consequence. It doesn't hurt to think through the ramifications first to avoid having to apologize later...

[Pukingpearl]

1 hour ago, bananabread said:

I just personally feel like the whole cultural appropriation movement is a way to force arbitrary social rules on other people. It's fine to buy from this kind of vendor, but not that kind of vendor. It's okay if you eat it yourself, but not if you open up a restaurant. It's okay to do something unless someone from that culture informs you that they're offended, and then you should apologize and do as they ask. It's all completely based on these intangible feelings of discomfort or offensiveness, which are really poor barometers for how to run a free society. "Cultural appropriation" just feels like censorship to me, and unnecessary interference in the free market. If you don't like something, don't buy it. Problem solved!

(Is my inner Libertarian showing? )

I don't agree completely, some things are clearly pretty exploitative, like urban outfitters copying authentic tribal jewelry and then having it made for pennies and making tons of money. I do think the label gets taken too far, sometimes, though. For example, I recently saw a buzzfeed article that basically had the tone of white women shouldn't wear more than one braid because it's offensive and racist. I think that's a bit of a stretch.

I also consider myself to be someone who truly enjoys diversity, and sometimes I feel like I have to censor my excitement or interest because it might rub someone else the wrong way. That's a little sad to me, but it's worth it to not contribute to a culture of racism and exploitation.

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

18 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

Japan is one of the countries I recommend everyone visit in their life. It's pretty amazing. It was in Kyoto, the Gion section. It's the district you typically see on tv where all the maikos and geishas live. The old province buildings and tiny alleys. It's one of the most stunning places I've ever seen. 

I just returned to the US after living in Japan for five years.  People (even non-Japanese) wear their kimonos during several festivals/holidays, especially Obon (or just Bon).  Obon is a Japanese Buddhist custom to honor the spirits of your family ancestors.  It lasts several days and much of the country returns to their family homes.  There are festivals which include dancing.  Local woman came and taught the Americans where I was living how to do the special dance and helped us put on our kimonos.  Unfortunately, Obon is in August when the temperatures are close to triple digits and the air drips with humidity.  Luckily, consuming that tasty Japanese beer is encouraged.  I still have my kimono.

[OyToTheVey]

41 minutes ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

I just returned to the US after living in Japan for five years.  People (even non-Japanese) wear their kimonos during several festivals/holidays, especially Obon (or just Bon).  Obon is a Japanese Buddhist custom to honor the spirits of your family ancestors.  It lasts several days and much of the country returns to their family homes.  There are festivals which include dancing.  Local woman came and taught the Americans where I was living how to do the special dance and helped us put on our kimonos.  Unfortunately, Obon is in August when the temperatures are close to triple digits and the air drips with humidity.  Luckily, consuming that tasty Japanese beer is encouraged.  I still have my kimono.

The sad thing is I made an amateur mistake of going to Japan in August. I went for my birthday. Birthday in Tokyo was awesome. I didn't realize it would be that humid. I thought I was gonna croak. The ladies taught me how to actually wear my yukata correctly. I would have loved to be part of the special dance too. And you're right the Japanese beer was very encouraging. It was encouraging during the robot restaurant, in the onsen, at the baseball game, overall a good experience.