Joy and Austin: Back in Arkansas?

[Stormy]

On July 26, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Rachel333 said:

One thing I've noticed is that, speaking very generally, people who are a bit removed from their culture, like the children of immigrants, tend to be a little more sensitive about cultural appropriation, which makes a lot of sense since it could be harder for a lot of them to maintain ties to their culture and they might feel differently than someone who has spent all their life in the country where that culture originates.

That reminds me of an article written by a second-generation Indian-American woman who felt very bothered by white female celebrities appropriating Indian culture since she's been bullied for it growing up; her parents, on the other hand, loved it because they saw it as their culture finally being "cool" in the Western world.

[Lilipad]

7 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I suppose this is where I run into questions.  I agree its not a costume (I would have more of a problem with it as a fancy dress party) but is it only appropriate to wear at a particular event?  I had a friend who wore one to prom, it was beautiful and when we had another formal party to go to she asked to borrow my dress and I borrowed her sari.  In my head it was appropriate because it was the correct formality level, and not a costume just a gorgeous outfit.  Did that become inappropriate? How does one wear an outfit respectfully?  Does it matter if the goal is to be different or just to wear something that looks good?  

My mom lives in India , but travels a fair bit around the world. She has only worn sari's exclusively , every single day of her adult life. To go grocery shopping, or drop off the recycling, or take a walk in the park , or go to work, or to a wedding , or take a flight or go to the temple. So if its okay for an Indian woman to wear it anywhere, then why is it disrespectful if a non-indian  woman does the same?

And then conversely if I, as an Indian woman, wear something say American , say I dunno jeans, do the same rules apply?

(Of course wearing a sari all the time is not the most physically appropriate thing for a lot of activities, just like the Duggar girls wearing skirts and flip flops for hiking.  And dissecting these societal and familial rules for women that seem to cross all borders and cultures is what keeps me so interested in discussions here.)

[2manyKidzzz]

@Lilipad I don't understand what you are saying above. Are you saying it is disrespectful for a non-Indian woman to wear a sari?

[Lilipad]

6 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

@Lilipad I don't understand what you are saying above. Are you saying it is disrespectful for a non-Indian woman to wear a sari?

No, the opposite. I don't see why it would be considered disrespectful for any woman to wear a sari anywhere.  

Sorry, I am not very articulate.

[Beermeet]

I LOVE Sari's.  So beautiful and feminine.  The fabrics, jewlery, all of it.  Just beautiful.   I'm totally jealous of your mom!  I live in a very diverse area, the younger Indian women mostly wear American clothing but their mothers and grandmothers wear sari's.  Just stunning imo!  I'd love to have the chance to be dressed properly in a sari.  Bucket list!  

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

When my best friend in my early 30s got married she honored me by asking me to take part in her wedding.  She's Indian and the whole (very long) ritual was wholly in Sanskrit.  Her aunties dressed me in the most beautiful sari you've ever seen!  A gorgeous deep green with golden thread.  I danced far into the night.  I'm so sad we lost touch, now 

[PainfullyAware]

On 25/07/2017 at 1:00 PM, bananabread said:

I just personally feel like the whole cultural appropriation movement is a way to force arbitrary social rules on other people. It's fine to buy from this kind of vendor, but not that kind of vendor

Here's the fact: a core part of Western colonialism was the outright theft of the crafts and traditions of indigenous cultures. These were often marketed in a way that reinforced an exotic Other who were 'less than' Europeans. From ransacking Egypt of ancient artifacts, to chinoiserie, to museum displays of stolen sacred artifacts from all over the world shown so European colonists could  gawk at the 'savageness' of it all, cultural appropriation has a dirty history.

Basically here are the principles between relishing a cosmopolitan existence (good) and enjoying the proceeds of neo-colonialism:

1. Don't feed into narratives with a racist past via your fashion or commodity choices: Blackface, sexy 'exotic' women ("mysterious veiled woman", "Pocahontas" etc,), logos like the Redskins

2. Don't use sacred artifacts as accessories: indigenous ceremonial headwear, tribal marks, etc.

3. Don't plagiarize: don't rip off the craftsmanship of another place without attribution in design and hopefully contribution by an artisan from that place. Ex a fashion show saying the models are wearing fabrics printed in China by a Chinese designer for the collection of a French fashion house vs we loved these pics on the internet of Chinese fabrics and made our own for our collection with no idea what they signify.

So hopefully that clears up the difference between buying something made and sold by someone of a different culture specifically to be enjoyed by a cosmopolitan audience versus something taken without any contribution from a specific culture and marketed in a way that reinforces colonial narratives that reduce the power and devalue the 'other'.

We can't defend reproducing colonial narratives on the basis it's about 'freedom of expression'. Ultimately, if a cultural group calls out something for appropriation, just listen to them.

Here's an article that I think is really going to bridge the divide here between cosmopolitan cultural exchange and colonial cultural appropriation: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/411292/

[DamnPrecious]

All this white fragility is grating on me.  Just because something exists doesn't mean you have a right to it. 

Anedotes are not evidence. Just because you've found an instance of someone being okay with something doesn't mean shit. Look outside yourself and your feelings and educate yourself. 

[2manyKidzzz]

RE: above discussion on appropriation:  There will always be assholes. This I have learned. 

[HarleyQuinn]

The cultural appropriate topic is both fascinating and confusing to me. 

I get it when a magazine does "cornrow" hair styles and only shows white women. But I don't think white women aren't allowed to style their hair that way.

I thought Lena Dunham's rant about her college "appropriating Korean Sandwiches" was silly because in my travels there have been plenty of dishes I've tried that are different when you get to the country it's from. 

I can see how the child of immigrants wouldn't like seeing someone wearing things they were made fun of for wearing as a child.

I remember reading an article on Buzzfeed where the author apologized for dressing up like Pocahontas for Halloween as a kid. I did that too, she was my favorite Disney character. Did I offend anyone for loving a Disney movie? I've also known tribes to "adopt" people from other races/cultures into their tribes. Are they appropriating since they were not born that way?

I guess I see too many grey areas on when it's inappropriate, and when it's just nitpicky. 

 

[seraaa]

The distinction between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation brought up by @PainfullyAware does make a lot of sense to me . 

For me, it's basically about two things: respect (good) and exploitation (bad).

There can only be general guidelines, bar a few obvious cases,  because each situation is unique, but bear both of those tenets in mind and you won't go far wrong, IMO. 

[cascarones]

On 7/28/2017 at 9:54 PM, MadeItOut said:

Temple bar is a great place with loads of cool people. It's the artists' district too. The film institute and stuff is all down that way.

My passport stamp to Ireland has the custom agent's phone number written above it, met Oisin and the rest of his friends for a fun night at Temple bar. Ireland was wonderful and strange, we spent far too long in the revenue museum in Dublin (wandered in on accident, but the little old man was so excited we didn't have the hearts to leave). I was traveling with childhood friends and will never forget my great great aunt looking at one of them at our going away dinner and very calmly telling her, "She'll see the ghosts and hear the land. It's fine, just don't let her wander off with them." Pause. "Or get married."

I inherited her wedding dress from the '20s and her candles for the window, they sit in mine now. Welcome weary travelers, weary by heart or foot, our hearth is yours. 

 

[Greendoor]

31 minutes ago, cascarones said:

snip

 Welcome weary travelers, weary by heart or foot, our hearth is yours. 

 

What a beautiful sentiment.  

[GnomeCat]

Anyone else think Austin is going to eventually open up a construction company to go along with his house flipping skills? Then he could help employ all of Joy's brothers? Also, who else thinks he is helping Joe fix up a home for him and Kendra to live in after marriage? Ya'll I need some new hobbies (I really don't....I have more hobbies than time...lol).

[justoneoftwo]

32 minutes ago, GnomeCat said:

Anyone else think Austin is going to eventually open up a construction company to go along with his house flipping skills? Then he could help employ all of Joy's brothers? Also, who else thinks he is helping Joe fix up a home for him and Kendra to live in after marriage? Ya'll I need some new hobbies (I really don't....I have more hobbies than time...lol).

This would just kill JB.  Austin would become the patriarch essentially supporting everyone.  

[JDuggs]

46 minutes ago, GnomeCat said:

Anyone else think Austin is going to eventually open up a construction company to go along with his house flipping skills? Then he could help employ all of Joy's brothers? Also, who else thinks he is helping Joe fix up a home for him and Kendra to live in after marriage? Ya'll I need some new hobbies (I really don't....I have more hobbies than time...lol).

This is essentially the same business that JB and sons have been in (real estate, rehabbing, renting out, etc.) I think Austin basically has the same skill set as the Duggar boys, but they're showing us how he's able to support Joy. I assume we'll see more of Joe "making a living" soon. Ben probably sees himself more as a student and doesn't want to appear like working for JB is his end game.

[HereticHick]

3 hours ago, GnomeCat said:

Anyone else think Austin is going to eventually open up a construction company to go along with his house flipping skills? Then he could help employ all of Joy's brothers? Also, who else thinks he is helping Joe fix up a home for him and Kendra to live in after marriage? 

I thought Josiah was in charge of "Duggar Construction Inc"

[GnomeCat]

Man, I really forgot "Duggar Construction" was a thing.  But I think @JDuggs is right. Austin's essentially does the same that the Dugs are already doing, they are just actually making Austin's skills the focus of the show to show he can provide for Joy. Whereas, we all are always wondering exactly what the Dug boys are up to or who is in charge of what.

[Snarkle Motion]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:01 PM, seraaa said:

The distinction between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation brought up by @PainfullyAware does make a lot of sense to me . 

For me, it's basically about two things: respect (good) and exploitation (bad).

There can only be general guidelines, bar a few obvious cases,  because each situation is unique, but bear both of those tenets in mind and you won't go far wrong, IMO. 

Agreed. And it ultimately comes down to how people from the culture feel about it and you have to trust them, even if it doesn't make sense to you or seems like people are being "over sensitive." 

I'm not Indian but I know many white people wear saris at Indian weddings me get henna done. That seems appropriate as a form of respect to the culture be is sanctioned by the community. Wearing a sari for a Halloween costume is most likely inappropriate.

WA white person designing fashion that uses design themes from saris would most likely also be appropriation as its exploitation by profiting off another culture's heritage, unless the designer is careful and consulted the community. 

Master of None addresses offensive portrayal of Indians by white people in a really good way. Like this example of a an Ashton Kutcher add:

[calimojo]

Well, I think flipping 5 houses in a few years time is pretty impressive.  I don't think we have seen that from a Duggar boy yet.  I think Austin probably considers the family camp his main job.  Hopefully he knows the benefit of hardwork.  Then again,  Derick seemed chill and focused on his accounting career in the beginning too.  Then here were are with him now.  So I hesitate to be extremely optimistic re: Austin. 

[jqlgoblue]

Austin may have the same skill set but it seems he might be harder working / have better execution than the Duggars.

He also benefits from being what, one of two kids in his family? Perhaps he has more ownership / reliance on himself and he certainly can take more individual credit. It's clear what he has done vs. hard to tell what any individual Duggar has done in all that chaos.

[danni9242]

I think Austin will probably be set to inherit the camp at some point? If he and Joy plan to 'Let the Lord decide' how many children they will have it will have plenty of space and they have plenty of workers (sigh). I think the houseflipping is a money maker until then and he probably aims to be like JB with a good portfolio providing an income and houses to be 'first homes' once their kids grow. Aside from the houseflipping though a lot of the required skills are actually very useful and save a lot of money. I think Austin is better at it because he does more simply because there aren't a dozen people at home to call in to help.

[BadMurphy]

20 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

This would just kill JB.  Austin would become the patriarch essentially supporting everyone.  

Well it's gotta be someone and it can't be Josh so....

[Londish]

On 8/1/2017 at 8:20 PM, cascarones said:

My passport stamp to Ireland has the custom agent's phone number written above it, met Oisin and the rest of his friends for a fun night at Temple bar. Ireland was wonderful and strange, we spent far too long in the revenue museum in Dublin (wandered in on accident, but the little old man was so excited we didn't have the hearts to leave). 

 

Haha same! My visit to Ireland was a few years back but this is pretty much how it happened for me and my friend as well, we walked in kind of by accident not even sure what it was, but the old man working there was so sweet! My friend and I were the only two in here until just before we actually left and we simply didn't want to leave him alone in there 

[MadeItOut]

I have to go find this place and the guy there. It sounds amazing!