Visionary Woman: 1st 2 years of college are review of HS?

[desertvixen]

My(co-op) partner and I are currently writing a homeschooling/unschooling book and we have discussed starting an alternative school,but we do not want to teach once our kids are grown. We have had tons of crazy ideas of what we want to do, but we always lose interest ...

If you write a book, I'll buy it. (I'll even proofread it for free just to get the wisdom!)

emmiedahl, I think it's awesome that with all that BS you're still going back. I'm doing my master's one slow class at a time online through Western Kentucky U and that's rough enough.

[emmiedahl]

Of course, the irony of this is that AP exams are much, much cheaper than credits of any one college class.

Eh, my parents didn't pay for my college either. They are against it because if they helped one of us, they'd have to help all of us. There are seven kids and I am the only one with student loans, so it worked out.

However, they did pay for my youngest sister's AP exams. And we older ones were like, excUUUUse me? But she's the baby; we wore hand-me-downs and she wore Prada.

[mythoughtis]

If someone didn't take college prep courses in high school, then college general studies would not be a review for them

If someone took general studies courses that were different than what they took in high school, then that would not be a review for them. For example, philosophy, astronomy, term paper class (a second exposure to that is never a bad thing).

If someone didn't get a high enough ACT to start with Calculus in college, then maybe starting with a lower class might be a review... but one they obviously needed. same with science.

General studies are not just to get everyone speaking the same language,etc.... they are meant to expose college students to various topics so that 1. they are well rounded... not just versed in one subject (that's a tech school). 2. they have a chance to learn different topics that might point them in towards a specific major that they hadn't considered. I don't consider them a review, I consider them a good thing.

I seriously doubt that my son thinks the 3 Calculus classes he has to take prior to his Engineering major is a review, seeing as he didn't take calculus in high school... and ony calc 1 would have been available anyway. He never took chemistry (had anatomy instead), physics, philosophy either.

[pomology]

Eh, my parents didn't pay for my college either. They are against it because if they helped one of us, they'd have to help all of us. There are seven kids and I am the only one with student loans, so it worked out.

However, they did pay for my youngest sister's AP exams. And we older ones were like, excUUUUse me? But she's the baby; we wore hand-me-downs and she wore Prada.

Nonetheless, it seems silly, because paying for the AP exams is going to save someone money. Even (maybe especially?) if they were making you pay for your own college education, you'd think they'd want to save some money on the whole thing.

But I understand, having seven children not wanting to pay for each child's tuition.

[emmiedahl]

I think they realized that by the time they got to the youngest, which is why they paid for hers. My parents are very much like "You need to get out of the nest and make it on your own! Pay your own way like we did and you'll appreciate it more!" But it really comes to: seven children. I would not trade most of my siblings for a college account, although there is one...

[Shoobydoo]

I don't remember the part where my high school corralled us into the shop and made us learn to use a plasma cutter as a graduation req. So no, not so much repetition. As a side note, I actually did take a couple AP classes, but then I went to art school where my AP bio 2 isn't really relevant.

[emmiedahl]

See, the problem is that you guys took cool stuff in college. You know the ideal fundie kid is not taking quantum mechanics or going to art school! An education is what you make of it. And they will make any education stupid, nonthreatening to their worldview, and at least vaguely religious.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

A lot of Christian home schoolers have this argument. I don't know if THEIR kids need the basic classes more than a public school kid or they are just looking for more excuses to put down college. Many try to "clep out" of the basic stuff or have their kids take it at community college. I know several Christian homeschoolers who are "clepping" now.

My son starts community college next spring at age 15.5 and I hope he can transfer as a junior to where ever he ends up at age 18. (After looking up his top choices yesterday and seeing they all are over 50k a year, he really needs to save wherever he can) He might have to take the basic classes there because his transcripts are not normal, but I have unschooler friends who made their own transcripts and had no problem getting into the college of their choice without taking basic classes so who knows. He won't take SAT's until next year so I am kind just up in the air with it for now.

I think a lot of them are maybe going to small schools or community colleges, also.

I work (in a very non-academic capacity) at a Big! Ten! University! and I can say that at least here, there is no need for anyone to repeat the last two years of high school. The basic subjects have placement tests where it's possible to skip the first NORMAL levels, and that's not even considering any remedial classes. As others have posted, people need to take a certain number of classes that "count" for writing credit, but those come in any number of flavors, so they should not be a repeat of high school. I suppose if someone is a brilliant writer coming in, they might not find the writing difficult, but it's certainly possible to take classes on any number of subjects that fulfill that writing requirement.

Math is more structured, but there people can simply test out of the first however many levels in the sequence. If you had two years of calculus in high school, you can start with the third basic math class (the first non-remedial math class is calculus from the beginning). Same for the sciences, if you can pass a qualifying exam you can test out of the first level or so, but the first level is not the same as high school already. Plus, the stuff high school AP classes take a year to do, people are doing at a more involved level in 16 weeks.

On the other end of the scale, there are plenty of ESL offerings too. :D

The thing about college (at least at a big research school) is that there really is no upper limit. Groundbreaking things are happening all the time. People are doing research aiming at Nobel prizes, people are inventing new stuff all the time, people are writing influential books all the time. Most people will not get there yet only going for their first degree, but some do already take part in those projects as undergraduates (even the defrauders with green hair), and there's always the option of graduate school.

Point being, universities are one of the places where interesting new stuff happens. IF students want to stay around long enough and pursue such things, they're available.

Of course from what I've read of your homeschooling, you know all this already!! :D But yeah, there's no way on earth people can just put down "oh, pooh, college, who needs it, it's twee" as some across the board statement. This idea that somehow "college" just can't ever challenge a Christian homeschooled kid is silly.

[VVV]

ED, my good friend decided after 15 years of being a CPA that she needed to return to her original dream of being a doctor. So in her mid-thirties, she started taking her prereqs, a course or two at a time. At 40 she started med school, 2.5 hours away from her home (didn't get into the local one). She commuted home most weekends during M1 and some of M2. She has done every M3 and M4 rotation possible through the med school here so she could live at least part-time with her husband and two teenage children. And next June, she will be a doctor. I say, go for it!

Getting back to the OP, the only class I had my freshman year that was review was the second semester of Calculus. I had passed the Calc BC AP exam, but not impressively, and I knew I wasn't prepared well for the 3rd semester even though the college was willing to give me the credits and put me there. However, a family member's 19-year-old daughter just "graduated" with her "BA in music" (ironic quotes intentional) from some New Jersey school she never set foot in, through College Plus. Having seen many examples of her writing, all I can say is that whatever English review she may have gotten was not enough. :roll:

[Rachel333]

First semester chemistry was kind of a repeat of high school, as were the world literature courses I took, but that was it. I technically entered school as a sophomore due to all my AP credit, and I was taking Calculus III first semester freshman year.

But homeschoolers tend to just like feeling superior to everyone else.

[O Latin]

Wow, I'm starting to feel like a math wimp. I took the AP BC Calculus test my junior year of high school, specifically so that I would never have to take math again, and it worked. I have Calculus I and II on my transcript, which more than fulfills the math requirement for my history degree. At my school everybody has to take at least one math class (unless you've taken the AP Calc test, which most people haven't), so they start wayyyyyyyyyy below Calc. I think you could probably take pre-algebra and get credit for it. We have general ed. requirements, obviously, but, depending on your degree they can be pretty skimpy. I wish I could explore more subjects (because, outside math and science, I really do find most subjects interesting), but most of what I have left to graduate is upper division electives. The problem is that I only meet the prereqs for upper division in about three subjects.

Okay, that sort of turned into an off topic rant. I love school, but sometimes I wish I could go back and do college over again and not waste a year going to a school I hated and then trying to be a SAHD.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yeah but in history you don't need a whole lot of math, so no shame!

On the other side there are plenty of people trying to minimize any and all writing (hi!) but at least with "you have to write papers" as a requirement the offerings are varied, because you can "have to write papers" on a variety of topics. So the history people pick history, the English people pick English, the math people pick whichever of those fits best in their schedule...

I have to say, one of the absolute best perks of working (even in a very non-academic capacity) at a university is being surrounded by people studying (or being the foremost authorities in!) various subjects, and being able to sit on a variety of classes. There's a formal way to actually register, but even aside from that, no one notices one extra lurker at the back of the room in a lot of classes, even when you have lots of white hair...

I'm thinking lately of trying to take some foreign language classes. They have nothing to do with my work (I'm a computer programmer) but my work schedule can be flexible, if I can arrange my hours it's possible I can maybe take some classes (officially auditing them even) which would be awesome. I have no desires for any credentials, but the learning would be good.

[marmalade]

A lot of universities do complain that they have to spend the first part of a degree course teaching the students things that they ought to have learned in school - but that's hardly the universities' fault if it's true.

I've checked out Bio 1A and Chem 1A content and lab lectures thru my universities podcasts. I was considering going into dietetics. I changed my mind well before I transferred into one of the top 5 research universities in the world, and I was right to do so. Bio 1A assumes you have taken microbiology and O-chem before you step into this "freshman trap" class. They have "weeding out" courses in every major and this is one of them. It's a different world from my day when AP was being introduced. All we had was English in my school.

Truth be told, I would have never passed Bio 1A, etc. I'm glad I took that stuff in CC, because while it's vitally important, and I use my scientific abilities daily, it will be a peripheral part of my intended career.

[clibbyjo]

Yeah but in history you don't need a whole lot of math, so no shame!

On the other side there are plenty of people trying to minimize any and all writing (hi!) but at least with "you have to write papers" as a requirement the offerings are varied, because you can "have to write papers" on a variety of topics. So the history people pick history, the English people pick English, the math people pick whichever of those fits best in their schedule...

I have to say, one of the absolute best perks of working (even in a very non-academic capacity) at a university is being surrounded by people studying (or being the foremost authorities in!) various subjects, and being able to sit on a variety of classes. There's a formal way to actually register, but even aside from that, no one notices one extra lurker at the back of the room in a lot of classes, even when you have lots of white hair...

I'm thinking lately of trying to take some foreign language classes. They have nothing to do with my work (I'm a computer programmer) but my work schedule can be flexible, if I can arrange my hours it's possible I can maybe take some classes (officially auditing them even) which would be awesome. I have no desires for any credentials, but the learning would be good.

Ohhhh, my son wants to do computer programming/video game design. What is the highest math he'll need in college? I am NOT the math person in the family(this is why I use an on-line based math program for my kids),but my husband took calculus for fun in college so he is the "helper" if they need one(they do not so far).

[mirele]

I went to one of the better high schools in Texas back in the 70s, and only one person in the entire school of 3000+ kids was taking calculus (from a tutor). For everyone else, the highest class was trigonometry. You got calculus in college. Of course, there was no Advanced Placement then, but you could CLEP out of classes. I got credit for biology and anatomy by getting a perfect score (36) on the science portion of the ACT. By contrast, I got a 12 on the math portion. I graduated from university with NO math credits whatsoever--and you can't do that now. If I'd had to take calculus, I'd probably still be there.

As for the "the first two years of college are a repeat of high school" homeschoolers, I say, let's just toss them into the lion's den with a full load and holding down a part-time job and see how they fare?

[Guest Anonymous]

I went to one of the better high schools in Texas back in the 70s, and only one person in the entire school of 3000+ kids was taking calculus (from a tutor). For everyone else, the highest class was trigonometry. You got calculus in college. Of course, there was no Advanced Placement then, but you could CLEP out of classes. I got credit for biology and anatomy by getting a perfect score (36) on the science portion of the ACT. By contrast, I got a 12 on the math portion. I graduated from university with NO math credits whatsoever--and you can't do that now. If I'd had to take calculus, I'd probably still be there.

As for the "the first two years of college are a repeat of high school" homeschoolers, I say, let's just toss them into the lion's den with a full load and holding down a part-time job and see how they fare?

My condolences to the lions.

[Kitty]

Wow, I'm starting to feel like a math wimp. I took the AP BC Calculus test my junior year of high school, specifically so that I would never have to take math again, and it worked. I have Calculus I and II on my transcript, which more than fulfills the math requirement for my history degree. At my school everybody has to take at least one math class (unless you've taken the AP Calc test, which most people haven't), so they start wayyyyyyyyyy below Calc. I think you could probably take pre-algebra and get credit for it. We have general ed. requirements, obviously, but, depending on your degree they can be pretty skimpy. I wish I could explore more subjects (because, outside math and science, I really do find most subjects interesting), but most of what I have left to graduate is upper division electives. The problem is that I only meet the prereqs for upper division in about three subjects.

Okay, that sort of turned into an off topic rant. I love school, but sometimes I wish I could go back and do college over again and not waste a year going to a school I hated and then trying to be a SAHD.

YOU feel like a math wimp? I never took AP Calculus, and got a 1 on the AP Stats exam. I'm taking MAT101.

It's one of many problems I have with my younger sister- in high school she took trig the semester before I did (she was a sophomore and I was a junior), the next semester she took AP Stats and got a 3 on the exam, the next year she took like 3 different math classes including AP Calculus. I never would ask her for help because she'd scoff and call me an idiot because everything was just "so easy." I think I have another learning disability besides ADHD. One that means I can't do math.

[pomology]

Wow, I'm starting to feel like a math wimp. I took the AP BC Calculus test my junior year of high school, specifically so that I would never have to take math again, and it worked. I have Calculus I and II on my transcript, which more than fulfills the math requirement for my history degree. At my school everybody has to take at least one math class (unless you've taken the AP Calc test, which most people haven't), so they start wayyyyyyyyyy below Calc. I think you could probably take pre-algebra and get credit for it. We have general ed. requirements, obviously, but, depending on your degree they can be pretty skimpy. I wish I could explore more subjects (because, outside math and science, I really do find most subjects interesting), but most of what I have left to graduate is upper division electives. The problem is that I only meet the prereqs for upper division in about three subjects.

Okay, that sort of turned into an off topic rant. I love school, but sometimes I wish I could go back and do college over again and not waste a year going to a school I hated and then trying to be a SAHD.

Don't worry, O Latin. You are not a math wimp. I am definitely a math/science wimp because my school requires you 9 credits of math/natural sciences and I got 4 credits from AP Calc AB, 4 credits from AP Bio and my final credit from an Introduction to Psychology class that I took pass/fail where 2 of the credits were social science credits and the other 2 credits were natural science. It's not that I dislike math and science per se, I just had such an awful experience with them in high school that I never wanted to take them again.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Ohhhh, my son wants to do computer programming/video game design. What is the highest math he'll need in college? I am NOT the math person in the family(this is why I use an on-line based math program for my kids),but my husband took calculus for fun in college so he is the "helper" if they need one(they do not so far).

I'm far out of school at this point and actually came up through engineering, but looking at degree requirements for computer science locally to me now, it seems pretty similar. Namely, you need to through the "main calculus" math program (so, calculus up through multivariable calculus - when I was in, it took around two years), then linear algebra (matrix manipulation is a big thing), and probability (probability from the math perspective uses a lot of calculus and sums). A lot of set stuff, how many ways are there to combine these things, how many ways are there to walk this path, etc.

Aside from that there's logic and algorithms. The basic math is about getting the grounding to learn the various kinds of applied math. The stuff that "sticks with you" when you go out and practice is the logic and algorithms, really. The "there's more than one way to do this, but one way is going to be better."

[antifundie]

I've taught or TAed several 100-level classes, including writing classes, and based on what my students tell me, they are NOT a repeat of High School.

When I've taught writing to freshman, the thing I hear the most is "But in my AP/Honors/College Prep course I learned X, and now you want me to do Y??????" Yes, yes, I do want you to learn something new or different. Yes, I do want your own argument/opinion in your paper! I don't WANT to re-hash high school (although I do have to correct grammar, etc., that should have been learned earlier), I want college to expand your mind!

Argh. My biggest beef is student who confuse College Preparatory with College. They are not equal--one *prepares* you for the other!!!

[bananacat]

Those of you think you are "math wimps" shouldn't be so hard on yourselves. Math courses are just a good example for this specific case because they're standardized and generally go in a certain order, but most other subjects aren't like that. So it's an easy way to demonstrate that college courses aren't just a repeat of high school.

Nobody can be an expert in everything. I've probably taken more math courses than 99% of adults in the United States, but I would have a rough time naming 5 of Shakespeare's works without Googling. I once tried to draw a horse and it looked like a giraffe. I know general concepts of history, but I don't know dates, places, names, or other details. All my attempts at poetry or creative writing have been dry and predictable. I actually picked engineering as a major partly to avoid non-technical writing. I know it sounds really corny, but I truly believe that everyone has different strengths to contribute to society and that nobody is good at everything. That's why collaboration is so important.

[twin2]

I'm a spelling wimp here. I'd be out in the first round of a fourth grade spelling bee.

A few years ago, the company I was working for had a "day of service." My department went to a local elementary school and helped 4th graders make quilts for the local children's hospital. One of the girls asked me to spell some word, I don't remember what, but I took my best shot at it. After I was done, she looked up at me with a puzzled look on her face and said "Are you sure that's right?" My co-worker who was standing behind her was shaking his backed and forth and mouthing "no."

[Shoobydoo]

YOU feel like a math wimp? I never took AP Calculus, and got a 1 on the AP Stats exam. I'm taking MAT101.

It's one of many problems I have with my younger sister- in high school she took trig the semester before I did (she was a sophomore and I was a junior), the next semester she took AP Stats and got a 3 on the exam, the next year she took like 3 different math classes including AP Calculus. I never would ask her for help because she'd scoff and call me an idiot because everything was just "so easy." I think I have another learning disability besides ADHD. One that means I can't do math.

Kitty, I'd be in math 101 with you if I were at a more academically oriented college. I barely passed Algebra 2. As a high school senior. Luckily for me, the closest thing to math here is a business management class.. :)

[Curious]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, but I see a lot of folks here posting about taking classes from (reputable) colleges online. I'm wondering if any FJers have recommendations for some places that have online classes and the process by which you start that.

I actually have a 4 year degree and have no real need to get another one since I will likely never work outside the home again, due to my disability, but I loved college and just enjoy taking classes. I've taken tons of classes at various online places that are not associated with a college, but I have now pretty much gone through all the ones I want to take and they are not adding anything new that interests me :(

I'd love to take a class or 2 a year just cause I'm weird like that.

[FaustianSlip]

I think some college courses can be review, definitely Freshman year, in the sense that the names may be the same as classes you took in high school, but the depth and speed at which we covered subjects was way, way greater than most of the high school classes I took. The workload was heavier, the amount you were expected to do on your own was larger and it was just way more intense than high school (as it should be). I AP tested out of about a semester's worth of stuff (English Lit., AP US History and Government), but my high school's AP offerings were limited. Course-wise, here's what I remember taking in college:

Freshman Year:

- Honors Chemistry (2 semesters- kicked my ass, and that was pretty much it for dreams of medical school- great prof, though)

- Honors Biology (2 semesters)

- Calculus

- Honors Colloquium (basically a multi-disciplinary class; mine focused on sci-fi and fantasy)

- Honors English Comp.

- Hebrew (2 semesters)

- Drama

Sophomore Year (switched major to History, studied abroad in London in the spring):

- Air Force ROTC

- Russian Literature

- British Literature I

- Hebrew

- Studies In the Drama

- Modern English Literature

- Music

- Literature of London

- British History

- World History to 1642

Junior Year (declared minor in Irish Studies):

- Air Force ROTC

- Biblical and Classical Literature

- Irish History

- Ancient Jewish History

- Intro. to Criminal Justice

- Japanese

- Medieval Europe

- WWI history research course (wrote my paper on the Dardanelles campaign)

- World History from 1642

Senior Year:

- Microeconomics (needed to fill one last core requirement)

- Barbarian Europe (history capstone course, wrote my paper on Rashi and Peter Abelard)

- England's Rise To Greatness

- Problems In Corrections (awesome criminal justice course I took to fill out a core requirement)

- World Religions

- Japanese

- Irish Literature

I'm missing a few classes in there, and the order may be slightly off, but that's the big stuff. Now, did we cover world history in high school? Sure, but we didn't have hundreds of pages of reading in primary and secondary sources to do for every class or three-hour marathon exams. I know I didn't get to do any criminal justice classes in high school, and there was definitely no Hebrew, no Jewish history and no specialized literature or history classes. Granted, I went to a smallish high school, but my initial thought at reading the subject line was, "If your first two years of college were all review, you probably weren't doing it right."

That said, I think the idea that the fundies get nothing but basic review because they refuse to consider taking anything but very basic courses is right on. They never show much inclination to push themselves intellectually, and frankly, I don't think a lot of Christian colleges of the fundie stripe are going to force the issue. Once again, they're just trying to pooh-pooh secular education and instead revealing their own educational failings.