Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[nastyhobbitses]

I could barely get through that FAQ without wanting to vomit. What the fuck.

Though on the bright side, it also made me want to Skype my dad and tell him how much I appreciate him being an awesome dad who respects me and raised me to be an independent woman who could make decisions for herself.

[Angelic83]

2 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I could barely get through that FAQ without wanting to vomit. What the fuck.

Though on the bright side, it also made me want to Skype my dad and tell him how much I appreciate him being an awesome dad who respects me and raised me to be an independent woman who could make decisions for herself.

I feel for you. I just started glancing over the FAQ..and keep wondering about the term that there are not anti-woman...just because everyone that is working there is married....so if you are single you can be anti-woman??

[Howl]

There's some vibe in the FAQs and elsewhere that life should be hard, just because.  So marrying a stranger with whom you'll be having sex VERY SOON and with whom you'll be living the rest of your life is fine.  It doesn't matter if you are a good match or it's a living nightmare, because life is hard and this is God's  Vaughn Ohlman's plan for you.  These guys really do think they are God.  Vaughn Ohlman is a sick, sick man. 

I also don't get the Old Testament obsession and I'm serious when I wonder --  Why don't they just convert and become Ultra Orthodox Jews, who are more in line with many of their Old Testament beliefs?  

ETA: and here's something else that pisses me off. Vaughn Ohlman believes that a father's rule & authority over his child does not end at that child's marriage.  Yeah, think about that. 

[polecat]

10 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

I know I'm going to get down voted for this, but I think that as long as the daughters and sons truly are 100% ok with it and are actually legal adults it's fine. 

My daddy and I were super close. I would have completely trusted him to pick me a husband. No one knows me and what i need better than he did. In fact he told me once that he would've picked my husband to marry me. 

That being said, I do realize that not everyone has a relationship with her father like I did. 

3

bbm -- In the fundy world, there might be plenty of sons and daughters who say (and maybe believe) that they are 100 percent okay with something like this, but are they really? At what point are people being heavily coerced and brainwashed into something vs. entering into something completely of their own free will. You might trust your dad to pick a partner based on years of loving, trusting, positive, and emotionally healthy interactions. But these sons and daughters are in positions where "trusting" their parents is more a matter of, well, life-or-death may be a little too dramatic, but it may be a matter of either "trust" your parent or be kicked out of the home without a way to support yourself, be ostracized, or be locked away in shame. imo, precious few fundy sons and daughters are ever making any completely independent decisions whether they are legal adults or not.

[Baabaablacksheep]

29 minutes ago, Howl said:

There's some vibe in the FAQs and elsewhere that life should be hard, just because.  So marrying a stranger with whom you'll be having sex VERY SOON and with whom you'll be living the rest of your life is fine.  

Right - and what If you have no chemistry or sexual attraction to that person? Marriage is hard regardless, and adding in a lack of attraction or a bad personality fit sounds terrible. Of course I suppose that with their worldview that women should mold themselves to help their husbands meet his destiny means that they aren't allowed their own personality. 

[polecat]

14 hours ago, EyeQueue said:

1) The ‘youth’ ready for marriage has breasts. A woman who is to be married is one who has breasts; breasts which signal her readiness for marriage, and breasts who promise enjoyment for her husband.

 

I had breasts at 9. I had quite large breasts by the time I was in 7th grade. *shudder*

[FormerlyFundyLite]

Quote tags are not working for me for some reason, but...

Quote

1) The ‘youth’ ready for marriage has breasts. A woman who is to be married is one who has breasts; breasts which signal her readiness for marriage, and breasts who promise enjoyment for her husband. (We believe that ‘breasts’ here stand as a symbol for all forms of full secondary sexual characteristics.)

2) The ‘youth’ ready for marriage is ready to bear children. Unlike modern society Scripture sees the woman as a bearer, nurser, and raiser of children. The ‘young woman’ is the woman whose body is physically ready for these things, physically mature enough to handle them without damage.

3) The 'youth' ready for marriage is one who is ready for sexual intercourse sexually and emotionally. Her desire is for her husband, and she is ready to rejoice in him physically.

WHAT?!

Quote

What if my children aren't ready? If they are of age and you are confident that they do not fall into one of the three Biblical categories of "eunuch", then they need to be ready for marriage. Re-examine your idea of readiness. Get them ready.

How on earth do they propose that parents get their children ready for marriage if those are the only signals that a child is ready? Is the patriarch supposed to grow his daughter's breasts? Is he somehow supposed to ready her body to bear children? I can't even comment on a patriarch readying his daughter for marriage in terms of number 3...

[CoveredInBees]

15 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

It also appears that Laura has a brand new blog. princecharmingdiapers.com

"Diapers, Dishes & Prince Charming. Encouraging Christian women to prepare for their God-given callings"

What the actual?????

I sense a new rabbit hole for me to enter....

[foreign fundie]

Quote: "The ‘young woman’ is the woman whose body is physically ready for these things, physically mature enough to handle them without damage."

He clearly has little idea of the strain of childbirth on a female body. It nearly always does some damage (and quite often a lot of damage), even to a fully grown woman. (Still feeling my stitches)

I presume he wants to say that women should be beyond the age that child birth is riskier than average, which I believe is between 16-18.

But sexual desires usually wake much earlier. Long before a girl can safely birth, or has the skills to safely raise a bunch of kids or a boy has the means to provide for them.

Yes all through history and still in many countries early marriage is the norm. We stopped doing it because it caused so much preventable death and poverty. And since people's life expectancy is no longer 27, we can take our time.

However, the biggest fundamental mistake he makes it to presume that marriage cures lust. It never has. Purity will always depend on self-control. Marrying off teens will not solve the problem of immorality. Its a doomed experiment.

[ViolaSebastian]

You think they would throw in a mixer or an ice cream social or one of the forty million ice breaker activities that every HR department and summer camp has on file, but I suspect the real reason that they don't have anything like that is because the parents aren't cool with Obadiah and Constance eyeing each other without extensive vetting on both sides. Can't have the children meeting somewhat spontaneously and finding each other mutually interesting and attractive before discovering that the families disagree on the Sinner's Prayer or the timing of Christ's return.

[Baabaablacksheep]

I have to say, as messed up as all this is, it seems more internally consistent than those who say they value young marriage and lots of babies but then have adult "kids" living with parents well into their 30's. Did anyone else notice that in the FAQ they state that a couple commiting fornication shouldn't be punished, but rather be married? On the one hand, a loophole in that you will  able to choose someone you are attracted to! On the other hand, what about cases of coercion or rape? Can certainly see this being justification  for having someone marry their rapist.

[refugee]

15 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

You think they would throw in a mixer or an ice cream social or one of the forty million ice breaker activities that every HR department and summer camp has on file, but I suspect the real reason that they don't have anything like that is because the parents aren't cool with Obadiah and Constance eyeing each other without extensive vetting on both sides. Can't have the children meeting somewhat spontaneously and finding each other mutually interesting and attractive before discovering that the families disagree on the Sinner's Prayer or the timing of Christ's return.

I thought I read something about an ice breaker near the beginning of this thread, but I could be wrong.

Another thought that struck me, just this morning, is that the 1500 price tag is helping to limit the attendees to the more elite families amongst that crowd. Just like in our former church, the elite tend to seek out the elite (in terms of income and status). There are a few exceptions, but not many.

And I'm seriously wondering if elite families in our church (and struggling, sacrificing wannabes) will be among the attendees?

Let's marry off the children to get our 200-year plan going (see Botkin family) and establish our dynasty. Each "founding" father an emperor in his own right...

Sounds almost Mormon in some ways, where each man has the potential to become a god and populate his own planet. Did I get that right?

[nausicaa]

25 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

You think they would throw in a mixer or an ice cream social or one of the forty million ice breaker activities that every HR department and summer camp has on file, but I suspect the real reason that they don't have anything like that is because the parents aren't cool with Obadiah and Constance eyeing each other without extensive vetting on both sides. Can't have the children meeting somewhat spontaneously and finding each other mutually interesting and attractive before discovering that the families disagree on the Sinner's Prayer or the timing of Christ's return.

Seriously, these people could learn a lot from Mormons and their ice skating outings and square dances. Hell, even Nathan and Melanie Maxwell got to meet at a church picnic.

God forbid anyone at any time have fun...

[SweetFellowshipper]

Well.

https://justgetmarriedsite.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/a-flood-of-attention/

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, CoveredInBees said:

"Diapers, Dishes & Prince Charming. Encouraging Christian women to prepare for their God-given callings"

What the actual?????

I sense a new rabbit hole for me to enter....

I've never been so happy to not be a Christian woman, I don't have to worry about such things.

This whole thing is so disturbing. And according to the FAQ actually desiring or loving the other person doesn't matter. And unlike courting you aren't supposed to avoid bad marriages. You are just supposed to marry? Because if you take emotion into consideration you'll never marry. And a lot of the "answers"' in the FAQ just seem to be avoiding the question.

For example:

 

Quote

 

Bride price: What is it, and why is it important? Wouldn't a bride price be like selling your daughter? A "bride price" is anything paid or given by the man or his representative at the time of his betrothal or receiving his bride.

Scripture certainly teaches about it, but it is not mandated, however, except in the case of a couple of laws. The law concerning bride price (Exodus 22:16-17) indicates that part of the punishment for fornication with an unbetrothed woman is the payment of a "standard" bride price for virgins, indicating that the bride price was a normal part of the marriage process.

The bride price plays a significant function: It shows the woman's value, and the point isn’t that the father gets the money but that he keeps it for his daughter, if her husband should ever abandon her.

They never say how it's not like selling your daughter.

[polecat]

12 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Well.

https://justgetmarriedsite.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/a-flood-of-attention/

 

 

Quote

 For those of our readers unfamiliar with ‘Free Jinger’, they are an anti-Christian

Now wait just a minute ... Nope. 

I'm a Christian, and so are quite a few of my fellow FJers. We are anti-fundamentalist Christians and anti-blasphemous Christians (those Christians who put themselves and their beliefs on the same level as God) -- that much may be true (although I'm not even sure I'd go that far -- we're a diverse bunch).

But nice to see you're reading here. Too bad you're too obstinate, narcissistic and self-absorbed to actually learn anything, though.

[Four is Enough]

11 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Well.

https://justgetmarriedsite.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/a-flood-of-attention/

"You haven't arrived until you've been mocked on Free Jinger." Damn skippy. We supply the URLs for the what the fuckery around the world. (Oh, and did I mention they said we were foul mouthed? 

[refugee]

12 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Well.

https://justgetmarriedsite.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/a-flood-of-attention/

Supercilious, superior, conceited. He'd better watch where he's walking -- with his nose so high in the air, he's likely to fall into a pit.

And no, I'm not anti-Christian at all. I'm just anti-"christian". And having been reformed for a couple of decades, I'm leaning heavily anti-reformed as well. Hateful and hate-filled theology, that redefines such words as "grace" and "love" into meaninglessness.

[HarryPotterFan]

11 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Well.

https://justgetmarriedsite.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/a-flood-of-attention/

Oh Lordy. Can "Learning the Joys of Anal Sex" be a post count title?

And silly Mr. Ohlman, we're not anti-Christian, we're anti-condemning everyone who doesn't follow your exact version of Jesus and anti-using religion as an excuse for hate. Big difference.

I was also unaware of the government seal of approval on pre-teen sex. Last I checked abstinence-only education was a thing.

[EmiGirl]

2 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Oh Lordy. Can "Learning the Joys of Anal Sex" be a post count title?

And silly Mr. Ohlman, we're not anti-Christian, we're anti-condemning everyone who doesn't follow your exact version of Jesus and anti-using religion as an excuse for hate. Big difference.

I was also unaware of the government seal of approval on pre-teen sex. Last I checked abstinence-only education was a thing.

@happy atheist

[HarryPotterFan]

3 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

"You haven't arrived until you've been mocked on Free Jinger." Damn skippy. We supply the URLs for the what the fuckery around the world. (Oh, and did I mention they said we were foul mouthed? 

I have the urge just to scream obscenities. And wizard swears. VOLDEMORT'S NIPPLE! EXPECTO PATRONADS!!

I used to know the elder swear by heart. I feel ashamed I don't remember it.

[QuiverDance]

After my divorce, Daddy joked to me a couple of times that he was going to pick "the next one" for me.  He obviously did not mean this literally, but I do think there is a kernel of truth to the notion that a woman's father knows what kind of man he would want for her.  In a caring way, not in a headship way.  he offered me money on the day of my wedding not to go through with the wedding.  He offered me financial support to leave my ex when he knew that I was in trouble with him.  When he met the man I'm seeing now, he told me I'd obviously learned a thing or two.  This is true.  I have learned a lot.  And in many ways I wish I'd listened to my father before I married my ex.  

I don't think these types of fathers are necessarily ill-intentioned, but they are hella misguided, and they are blinded by their own male privilege.  Would I allow my father to choose a spouse for me?  NO.  Would I defer to his judgment if he didn't like someone I was thinking about marrying?  Given my experiences, yes.  I might.  He is a good husband.  He knows what a good husband should look like.  

[smittykins]

14 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

*snip*

She also welcomes “women above the age of 13” to her blog. WOMEN. No, Laura, those are GIRLS who should be giggling at freakin’ slumber parties, not contemplating marriages to strangers.

 

I'm reminded of the passage in On The Shores Of Silver Lake when Laura and Lena go out to get the washing, and find that the washerwoman's daughter has just gotten married. At 13.  And they're both dumbfounded.

[JesusPony]

Just read Laura's betrothal story. Nope. I'd reserve the right to a veto when I met Prince Charming in person. I assume this particular Prince Charming is his father's lackey since Laura is heavily promoting the marriage retreat.

Consider: The parents bringing their kids to this retreat would be those who do want their children to get married (i.e. not the Arndts), but have had some difficulty doing so. Why have they been unable to get them married? 

It sounds like a slim pickins meet-up.

 

ETA: Since Ohlman is reading - Yes, sir, you are a backwards hick.

[QuiverDance]

15 hours ago, Shiny said:

The paragraph on consent is horrifying. As is the paragraph on when a girl is ready for marriage. Holy shit. Seriously, how has this lifestyle been allowed to advance in our society? I wonder really how many young girls will be married off in events like this. 

 

Right.  What they are describing is not consent.  It is duress.  Consent, or else.  These marriages, therefore, cannot be legally binding.  In most states, I would imagine, they could be annulled, given the right testimony and witnesses.  Especially considering the explicit statements on the website that consent is required.