Indiana's new anti-abortion law.

[December]

14 hours ago, Season of life... said:

This is chilling--shades of The Handmaid's Tale.

I can't believe how fast women's rights are eroding. For most of my life I took my freedoms for granted, but now I'm sincerely worried. 

What is going to satisfy these people--a return to the dark ages?

I'm actually rereading Handmaid's Tale right now... definitely a good comparison.

I can't believe how much the attitudes and laws in this country regarding women's health are changing in my lifetime.

[Petrel]

1 hour ago, pook said:

@Lillybee  OMGosh!  This casket/vault is advertised for a loss between 1-13 weeks gestation.  1 week???

I believe in retrospect I had a miscarriage once at about a week or two in.  I only realized it when I got pregnant with my daughter and recognized some of the weird symptoms I'd been having at that time.  I have no grief or sorrow at the loss of this particular embryo, and considering all I had was a heavy period, I don't know what there would be to bury.  I guess bury the pads and tampons like was mentioned above.  Maybe the blastocyst is in there somewhere?    Crazy.  

I understand these so-called chemical pregnancies can be upsetting for people who are trying to get pregnant, just saying they're very common and typically go unremarked.  

[Lillybee]

I seriously doubt that the state of Indiana will help the women who are forced to carry to term care for their seriously disabled babies.

[paganbaby]

3 hours ago, Lillybee said:

It looks like it will be a windfall for companies like this.

 

http://www.heavensgain.com/id39.html

I made the mistake of clicking on the link for urns. The combination of ugly and creepy is going to haunt me.

[salex]

I read once that in KS, until 1972,  unmarried women couldn't get for the pill until or unless they had 2 babies, which proved they were incorrigible. 

Now, if they are going for an abortion, they are lied to, made to have a sonogram, etc.

Anyone who is against easy to get contraceptives is evil.  That would include Santorum, Cruz, etc....

 

[apandaaries]

Events like these remind me of how quickly things can change and women's rights completely eroded.  It can happen anywhere people aren't paying attention.  There is this fascinating series of pictures from Afghanistan in the 1950s and 1960s: http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

The first picture is of women medical students with a female professor of medicine in modern (for the time) clothes. And now...they are where they are.  Iran had a similar situation with crazy right wing religious leaders taking over and making draconian laws to subjugate women.  It still shocks me (not sure why) to realize some politicians can campaign for and support this kind of bullshit. 

[RoseWilder]

1 hour ago, Lillybee said:

I seriously doubt that the state of Indiana will help the women who are forced to carry to term care for their seriously disabled babies.

Per the article: "Suggestions that any legislation requiring women to give birth to and raise children with severe genetic abnormalities should also provide help for those unable to bear the sometimes enormous costs that caring for those children might entail were brushed aside during the Senate debate."

So, nope, they have no intention of helping those people after their babies are born. Pro-life my ass. There is nothing about these people and their sick agenda that is actually pro-life. They don't care anything about what happens to those babies (or their families) after the babies are born. 

[Khan]

What the bloody hell is he smoking? Who is going to foot the bill for all this crap?   Another man trying to bring back backalley abortions so 'sinful sluts' can die from infections etc.  I wonder if he genuinely believes this is a good thing? 

As for those tiny caskets.

Fuck those manufacturers so hard.A miscarriage so early (first weeks) on does not even vaguely look humanoid. It's a blob. Easily mistaken for a clot. I'm not buying caskets or cremating every clot I pass out of fear that it might be an early stage miscarriage. 

[ADoyle90815]

2 hours ago, Khan said:

What the bloody hell is he smoking? Who is going to foot the bill for all this crap?   Another man trying to bring back backalley abortions so 'sinful sluts' can die from infections etc.  I wonder if he genuinely believes this is a good thing? 

As for those tiny caskets.

Fuck those manufacturers so hard.A miscarriage so early (first weeks) on does not even vaguely look humanoid. It's a blob. Easily mistaken for a clot. I'm not buying caskets or cremating every clot I pass out of fear that it might be an early stage miscarriage. 

I'm also wondering what the fuck is he smoking? First of all, the earliest miscarriages look like a clot that would show up on a sanitary napkin when a woman doesn't realize that she even had a fertilized egg that failed to implant. All I can say is that I'm glad my mom had the sense to leave that state, as I got to grow up in California. The only Indiana relative I have left there is a cousin who wants nothing to do with the rest of us.

[sparkles]

How many women will avoid seeking medical attention in case of a miscarriage because of this? How many women could die as a result? way to go, Indiana! This isn't anti-abortion, it's anti-woman.

[desertvixen]

@Petrel, yes.

I also had one (after my first pregnancy) that I only realized was NOT a heavy period because I passed what was apparently part of the sac.  Otherwise I would not have known.

[apandaaries]

This is all so infuriating.  We are headed back into a dangerous past.  Google searches for DIY abortions spiked in states with oppressive laws.  We're going to have women dying accidentally again.  What a pro-life stance.  FFS. There aren't enough words for this bullshit.  http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/the-return-of-the-diy-abortion.html?_r=0

[Lillybee]

Now Utah has a bill requiring anesthesia for abortions over 20 weeks.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/utah-governor-signs-bill-requiring-abortion-anesthesia-37990604

[samira_catlover]

7 hours ago, Lillybee said:

I seriously doubt that the state of Indiana will help the women who are forced to carry to term care for their seriously disabled babies.

We have a partial cure for this.  SCOTUS decision Buck v. Bell has never been repealed.

@sparkles: >>This isn't anti-abortion, it's anti-woman.<<

Womens are HUMAN? What planet did you come from?

*snarls ferociously, because no woman should have to die or face life-threatening surgery because of DIY abortions*

[16strong]

How does this even work? Do they force the (often barely pregnant) woman to undergo a procedure to extract the fetus? Do they throw her in jail if she has a chemical pregnancy that is naturally expelled before she can get to a hospital to have it extracted? I smell the stench of a thousand imminent lawsuits.

[CrazyCatLady]

@Lillybee  OMGosh!  This casket/vault is advertised for a loss between 1-13 weeks gestation.  1 week???

Just put your bloody tampon right in there! At one week would you even know that you miscarried?

[Gellhorn]

17 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

Seriously though. If you miscarry you have to have a funeral? That's beyond fucked up. Some people do them, but a lot of folks just want to move on. Firstly, forcing people to spend the money to cremate a bundle of cells is asinine. Secondly, are people also required to have a funeral for everyone that dies? I know people who don't want a funeral at all. 

Gets better.  In order to have a funeral you need a death certificate and for that, you need a physician.  At least in my state (where we still have PP and one of the few physicians who does perform 3rd trimester abortions) you need one the last time I had any reason to think about it.

In the Washington Post an ob/gyn says this will increase dialogue with her patients.  Given that she will have to report their pregnancies to the state, I rather doubt it.  I have this vision of many women purchasing EPT home pregnancy tests and then fleeing across state lines (if they have the money to do so) to get an abortion somewhere else and never discussing it with her at all. 

So - rather than put money into education or roads, the state of Indiana is going to have a new department for tracking pregnancy reporting and whether or not a birth follows.  Or at least a new job for the people employed already.  I wonder what the current population looks like and how it will change in the next several years if this law stands.  I suspect it will be appealed all the way to SCOTUS.

[Gellhorn]

I should correct something I wrote before the caffeine had a chance to kick-start my brain.  

In order to have a (legal) human burial or cremation you need a death certificate.

So, it seems to me that if you have a death certificate then this means every woman who is directly affected by this law also should be permitted to apply for and receive a social security number for the aborted fetus - which leads to a one-time tax write-off for the child.  After all, if a baby is born on the 31st of December, you get to declare them as a dependent on that year's 1040.

[Cleopatra7]

On 3/28/2016 at 1:33 AM, samira_catlover said:

Darling sweetie of my timespan, you are SOOOOOOO sadly clueless!---excuse me.

If a middle-class-or-upper female gets Unfortunately Pregnant, and it's not expedient to drop them off for six months at a relative or at a Florence Crittenton home, well, the only LOGICAL thing is to arrange an Ending to the Inconvenience.  There IS a reasonable demand for White Anglo Cutie Newborn Babies, but mixed-race kids, or any kid with a handicap, or where you don't have a couple of Collegiate Kids Bumping Bodies to make a Weal and Twoo0 LOVE CHILD---that is not very adoptable, and therefore worthy of termination of pregnancy (even if illegal under the statutes). 

You are OBVIOUSLY not cognizant of the fact that an unplanned pregnancy is somehow the will of the Eternal (cf. Scarlet Letter), and that any female who gets pregnant must carry to term and hold the baby out for the survey of the community---unless, of course, you can afford to travel for an abortion, or have a compliant physician handy, or can afford to hide you within an Auntie's house.

Poor people?---may I politely refer you to this source, as a possible means of Taking Care of this Eugenic Problem? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

It's not true that there are a bunch of black and mixed race babies waiting to be adopted in foster care. Healthy babies of any race are adopted almost immediately because adoptable babies in general are rare. Adoption is simply not popular with pregnant women. In fact, minority women are less likely to choose adoption than white women. As a rule, if a woman is going to go through with a pregnancy, she wants to keep the baby. The real problem we have is not adopting infants, but with all the older children in foster care, most of whom are minorities. 

[Gellhorn]

Gets creepier.

Indiana will become the first state to require fetal remains be buried or cremated instead of treated as medical waste like all other tissue from surgeries. The person or facility in possession of the fetal material is required to preserve it “until final disposition.” How does this work for women who use prescribed medication to induce a miscarriage and terminate a pregnancy at home? Are they supposed to preserve the remains for burial?

[DaisyD]

Everybody better start burying their removed moles too. After all, they could be a re-absorbed twin. 

[Petrel]

11 minutes ago, Gellhorn said:

Indiana will become the first state to require fetal remains be buried or cremated instead of treated as medical waste like all other tissue from surgeries. The person or facility in possession of the fetal material is required to preserve it “until final disposition.” How does this work for women who use prescribed medication to induce a miscarriage and terminate a pregnancy at home? Are they supposed to preserve the remains for burial?

The law would apply to health care facilities.  

Here is the full text.

Excerpts:  

Quote

(a) Not more than twenty-four (24) hours after a woman has her miscarried fetus expelled or extracted in a health care facility, the health care facility shall:(1) disclose to the parent or parents of the miscarried fetus, both orally and in writing, the parent's right to determine the final disposition of the remains of the miscarried fetus; (2) provide the parent or parents of the miscarried fetus with written information concerning the available options for disposition of the miscarried fetus under section 6 of this chapter and IC 16-41-16-7.6;and (3) inform the parent or parents of the miscarried fetus of counseling that may be available concerning the death of the miscarried fetus.(b) The parent or parents of a miscarried fetus shall inform the health care facility of the parent's decision for final disposition of the miscarried fetus after receiving the information required in subsection (a) but before the parent of the miscarried fetus is discharged from the health care facility. The health care facility shall document the parent's decision in the medical record.

 

Quote

A health care facility having possession of a miscarried fetus shall provide for the final disposition of the miscarried fetus.The burial transit permit requirements under IC 16-37-3 apply to the final disposition of the miscarried fetus, which must be cremated or interred. However: (1) a person is not required to designate a name for the miscarried fetus on the burial transit permit and the space fora name may remain blank; and (2) any information submitted under this section that may be used to identify the parent or parents is confidential and must be redacted from any public records maintained under IC 16-37-3.

Miscarried fetuses may be cremated by simultaneous cremation.

 

Quote

The local health officer shall provide the person in charge of interment with a permit for the disposition of the body. A certificate of stillbirth is not required to be issued for a final disposition of miscarried fetus having a gestational age of less than twenty (20) weeks.

Clearly the purpose is not to provide a "decent burial" for aborted fetuses.  No death certificate is issued, no name recorded, no information about the parents recorded, and the fetal remains are not required to be cremated separately (it's unclear whether simultaneous burial is permitted from my reading).  I'm betting most aborted fetal tissue will be disposed by simultaneous incineration.  This means the fate of the fetal remains is not going to differ much from what it was before, when it would be disposed as medical waste, which is often incinerated, just with more paperwork and expense.  I wonder--if the fetal remains can be disposed by simultaneous cremation, are hospitals allowed to also include other medical waste in the same batch for incineration?  In that case there really would be no change in disposal. 

[SnazzyNazzy]

I have been following this for awhile now. My panties were in a proverbial twist in the beginning. Then the more I read, the less twisted they became. I think the whole thing is FUBAR, and totally disregards, what's it called oh yeah constitutional rights, that it is headed to the Supreme Court. 

Being a born and raised Hoosier, and living here for 36 of my 40 years, this is just a total facepalm moment. 

[violynn]

I'm just waiting for Kentucky to jump on this bandwagon.  I don't think I'll have long to wait.  =/

[Petrel]

More important than the disposal requirements, this law puts restrictions on abortions performed after 20 weeks gestation for particular reasons.  

Quote

Chapter 4. Sex Selective and Disability Abortion Ban

Sec. 1. (a) As used in this chapter, "any other disability" means any disease, defect, or disorder that is genetically inherited. The term includes the following:

(1) A physical disability.

(2) A mental or intellectual disability.

(3) A physical disfigurement.

(4) Scoliosis.

(5) Dwarfism.

(6) Down syndrome.

(7) Albinism.

(8) Amelia.

(9) A physical or mental disease.

(b) The term does not include a lethal fetal anomaly.

 

Quote

Sec. 2. As used in this chapter, "lethal fetal anomaly" means a fetal condition diagnosed before birth that, if the pregnancy results in a live birth, will with reasonable certainty result in the death of the child not more than three (3) months after the child's birth.

This is fucking infuriating.  Tay Sachs is invariably fatal.  Symptoms appear around 7 months and usually the child dies before turning 5.  This law would result in a woman having to go through with a pregnancy and give birth to a baby who is doomed to years of suffering and inevitable death.  Somehow this is more humane than allowing her to have an abortion at 20 weeks before the fetus is capable of conscious thought.  

Is anyone familiar of similar measures in other states and legal outcomes of any challenges?