Church Discipline - Help a Heathen Out

[Coy Koi]

4 hours ago, Georgiana said:

(Catholic)  My Aunt is not allowed to take Communion because her husband had a previous marriage (so she is technically living in adultery).  While you don't get called up, you do have to stand there all on your own in the midst of 2 or 3 empty rows.  During a "big" mass like Christmas and Easter it's not so bad, but on any given Sunday, there's likely to be only one or two adults in the congregation that don't take Communion.

It can be pretty conspicuous.  

At the Catholic churches I've attended, people who don't take Communion still go through the line, but they bow their heads instead of putting out their hands, and get a blessing from the priest. Not that I ever thought about it, but I would have assumed that was how it was always done.

[Georgiana]

46 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

At the Catholic churches I've attended, people who don't take Communion still go through the line, but they bow their heads instead of putting out their hands, and get a blessing from the priest. Not that I ever thought about it, but I would have assumed that was how it was always done.

Non-Catholics or Catholics who have not yet received Communion (children) often go through the line to receive a blessing in some places.  However, this is more of a local custom (it is more widely done in English speaking Church communities, for example), and varies on how it is practiced as it is not in the "rubrics".  It is also more common to do this for masses where there may be high numbers of non-Communicants in the audience (weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter) to make it less awkward and more welcoming to non-Catholics.  

A non-Communicant can always go through the Communion line, but TECHNICALLY they are not supposed to, and some priests are stricter on this than others.  

[Hane]

The closest thing to "church discipline" I've ever seen at my UU church involved a member who had served a prison sentence for child molestation. After his release, he was emphatic about wanting to return to our church. The leadership met and agreed on an equally emphatic HELL NO. He was informed in writing that he was not allowed on church grounds. (We also have strict rules on interaction with kids--no fewer than two adults with an unrelated child, or group of children, at a time.)

Also, in our denomination's magazine, UU World, the section that lists ordinations, obituaries, and so on also lists people who were removed from the ministry for malfeasance.

[Snarkylark]

It only happened once in the church I grew up in. There is a process they followed such as confronting the individual first, then in a group if ineffective, and then in front of the church and excommunication as the last resort. This was for a crime that the person could have been charged criminally and was caught on tape happening several times. Person denied and continued to deny even after confronted with video evidence. He was excommunicated from the church but I don't know if charges were filed or not. The point is really to bring about repentance and restoration in this case. Thinking back, perhaps the family needed financial help but was too afraid to ask? I don't know.  I know it was not taken lightly and was not an easy decision for the church to decide to do it but they felt it was the best way to help the individual at the time. 

[doggie]

8 hours ago, Closed Womb said:

In one case, a friend of mine (a doctor in her late 30's, who was divorced) was publicly reprimanded because she and her then-fiance were having sex.  Essentially, the guilt got to one of them, they confessed, he was stripped of leadership roles (Elder, I think).  A statement was read about their sexual sin in the evening service, they apologized to the congregation, and they were both welcome to stay.  He left, she stayed, and it's still her church today.  (Aside: about 6 months after this happened, she married one of the church members/minor leaders who went to her house to counsel her after the confession.  They've been married about 15 years now.)  

that sure makes you wonder about the counseling that was going on.

[Mercer]

I'm Episcopalian. The only time I've ever heard of church discipline being mentioned is once a year we have a congregational meeting regarding various subjects (budget, programming, ministries we support, etc.) and one of the things they remind us of is that failing to report child abuse is a violation of our canon law as well as secular law, and that in addition to being reported to the appropriate authorities you would face church discipline. I don't recall it being specified exactly what form that would take.

[smittykins]

A non-Communicant can always go through the Communion line, but TECHNICALLY they are not supposed to, and some priests are stricter on this than others.  

My cousin converted to Catholicism in the 80s and was married in a Catholic Church, and her parents and our grandmother(Presbyterian)all received Communion.  I assume they got a dispensation from the Bishop?

[salex]

A girl I knew a year younger than me decided to try sex for the first time on Sr. Trip, and immediately freaked out about it and told the teacher what she had done.... whereupon they found a morning after pill and her church (a conservative version of the Church of Christ, no musical instruments in church, no dancing, etc) had her confess publically in front of the whole church.  THat is as close to any sort of church discipline I've seen in real life.  I'm an old Methodist/liberal Presbyterian and if I go back to church it won't have a contract that allows them to discipline me. 

THat said, on the Reconstructionist Theonomists, they discussed how to use church discipline to divorce your wife biblically, using church discipline.  1) complain about her to the elders.  2) Have the Elders confront her, and put a long list of things she needs to do / change on her.  3) make it virtually impossible for her to do these things and when she does not, and/or quits going to church, and leaves you, define her as not a Christian, thus since the bible says if you are married to a non Christian, if they leave you, you are not held to the marriage vows (though you are not to leave them) then, ta-da, you can remarry..... Nice bunch of assholes there.

While I find the idea of church discipline almost amusing (If I don't care about what you think enough to sin against the church, why would I care what they say or do to me) I suspect for people like Jill, whose whole life is centered on her church, the respect she thinks she gets for being in her church, the likely hood her parents might shun her if she were shunned by her church, etc... the idea of being abandoned and left alone is likely horrible.   It isn't as though she has multiple circles of friends, like many of us do... she doesn't have the mom's of her kid's classmates, the moms of the kids on the soccer team, or scouts or whatever... or her friends from work or that she knows from David's work.... church and churches are just about all she's got, other than relatives.

I suspect the threat of that kind of loss makes it a real threat.

 

 

[Coy Koi]

5 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Non-Catholics or Catholics who have not yet received Communion (children) often go through the line to receive a blessing in some places.  However, this is more of a local custom (it is more widely done in English speaking Church communities, for example), and varies on how it is practiced as it is not in the "rubrics".  It is also more common to do this for masses where there may be high numbers of non-Communicants in the audience (weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter) to make it less awkward and more welcoming to non-Catholics.  

A non-Communicant can always go through the Communion line, but TECHNICALLY they are not supposed to, and some priests are stricter on this than others.  

Oh okay, yeah, I was thinking of kids who haven't had First Communion yet, and non-Catholics. I don't actually know how my former churches would have or did handle it if a member was barred from receiving Communion. I never knew of that happening. My mom is divorced (not annulled) and remarried and she takes Communion.

[BullyJBG]

Interesting topic. My church, and the one I grew up in, cases of church discipline were rare, thankfully. Yes, the Matthew 18 process of being confronted one-on-one, then a "few witnesses", then it came before the congregation(in a separate membership meeting, not right after a church service) and the person was ex-communicated as a last resort. In I think most of them, by the time it got to "the church", the person leaves on their own anyway; basically keep on choosing the lifestyle that was visibly sinful or repent and change it, and help would be offered in the process.(like to move out of a co-habiting relationship, for example) No one was ever told to "not associate" with an ex-communicated one, unless they were an obvious danger.(pedophile and other sexual crimes, for example) Some of them, even if they dropped their membership, come back to visit sometimes and are welcomed, even if it's awkward. We're still learning, and communicating on how best to apply Matthew 18, and also 1 Corinthians 5 that talks of "expelling the immoral one". We want to keep the door open to repentance, but not enable lives of sin that can be dangerous to the congregation.

[Jingerbread]

The more a church gets you to disassociate from people who aren't also members, the more power their punishments have.  I think a big thing they count on is members having no outside friends and few or no outside connections because that can make it scarier to leave.  It's not fun to leave and have to start over.  I did it in my life about a decade ago.  It's hard as hell, but can be done, though those churches hope that the threat of losing everyone you know with the threat of hellfire and damnation will keep you in line.

By the way, Catholicism has excommunication and forbidding people from partaking of communion.  Those are punishments.

[onlyme]

Our church practiced discipline and bemoaned how loose other churches were in maintaining "the purity of the body of Christ". In the ten years we were there I saw several disciplines. Mainly older teens/early 20 yr olds for lying to their parents, moving in together, stuff like that. But also initiating a divorce, and one man annoyed the elders too much with his fanatical stands on the monetary system (he thought tithes should be paid in gold and berated one pastor for allowing his daughter to go to a state school) so he was kicked out. In one instance the person being disciplined wasn't even going to our church anymore, but the elders decided he was dangerous because he moved in with his girlfriend, and he was friends with some of the young adults in the church. Early 20's. 

They tell people not to associate with them, except to encourage them to repent. If the person being disciplined goes to another church they will even call the pastor of that church. In a couple cases the person "repented", but mainly they just leave and start over with their life. 

Their sense of self importance is rather laughable. 

[busdrivingmom]

On 3/3/2016 at 2:52 PM, Coy Koi said:

At the Catholic churches I've attended, people who don't take Communion still go through the line, but they bow their heads instead of putting out their hands, and get a blessing from the priest. Not that I ever thought about it, but I would have assumed that was how it was always done.

Actually, you cross your arms, facing up, on your chest and they bless you, but I've ran into too many Eucharistic Ministers  (lay people trained to give out Communion) who have no clue what to do with someone not receiving Communion.  They kinda of stare at me until I walk away.  So, unless a priest is giving out Communion, I sit in the pew.  

I am Catholic, but personally decided not to take Communion until I get Confirmed.  That's a long story for another time.  (three years and still fighting!)

[Hane]

Re who is and isn't "supposed" to receive Communion at a Catholic Mass: A priest once told me about something called an "internal forum decision," which means following your conscience when you are convinced that canon law is incorrect. I know a divorced and remarried woman who takes Communion because she believes she's done nothing wrong in remarrying. (Good for her, in my book!)

At a family funeral, I was serving as lector. The priest had been the chaplain of the divorced Catholics' group I attended over thirty years ago. (I didn't bother pointing out that I'm a UU now.) He asked me to remind the congregation that Communion was for "Catholics in good conscience" only. I forgot to, and used gender-inclusive language in the Bible readings, to boot.

[Closed Womb]

On 3/4/2016 at 7:15 PM, doggie said:

that sure makes you wonder about the counseling that was going on.

Well, there was a reason I brought it up.  The guy was certainly an opportunist in seeing the most attractive and most successful woman that little church had seen in a long time and reminding her that she was not worthless trash (which she wasn't/isn't, naturally) and making it all better. 

But, this wasn't ongoing counseling or anything.  It was a one time event where team of people that went over and told her of the decision, what would happen, answered her questions, made her feel secure in knowing she wouldn't be an outcast or pariah, etc.  It's not like it was weekly counseling where he brainwashed her or anything like that. 

And she was a close friend who told me almost everything (I knew she was sleeping with the fiance, for instance), so I know she really didn't have a physical relationship with him before marriage (although sex *absolutely was* the reason they married so quickly.)

[Closed Womb]

I was raised Catholic and since I can remember there were many people who did not take communion.  When I was younger we were taught not to take it unless you were free of serious (mortal) sins.  Depending on the way people interpret that, any kind of stuff might get you kept out of heaven, like doubting God was real that week.  Some of the older folks never took communion, because they never considered themselves without sin (my own Grandmother being one.)  

At both my husband's and my mother in law's funerals some of the Catholic family received communion and some did not. 

I know that every church body is different and if you know someone you might wonder why they stopped receiving communion, but I think in the average Catholic churches in Anywhere, USA, no one cares if you stay seated during wonder-wafer hour.  

(FWIW, I was raised Catholic, left the church to attend Protestant denominations, but now I don't attend anywhere.  When I do go to a Catholic church for one reason or another I take communion without an ounce of guilt.  Naturally, I have had all the sacraments required by the church, but it's not like I'm a practicing Catholic free of sin.  I guess that works a little differently if some priest has actually slapped your hands and told you "No Eucharist for YOU", but I'm very comfortable with being lax with the rules.)    

[sawasdee]

As far as taking Communion in a Catholic church,I just don't believe that if there is a god, he is so huffy-puffy about who can/cannot receive Communion as some of the priests are!