Church Discipline - Help a Heathen Out

[Crocoduck]

In the current Jill Rodrigues thread, there have been some comments about church discipline. As a lapsed Catholic and current follower of Wham-O the god of all Frisbeterians, I did not know this is a thing.

Could those of you in the know explain this idea? Do churches have trials? Do guilty church members have to go to church jail? Do they get a time out or get their allowance taken away? Please educate me on this aspect of the fundie world.

[Iokaste]

52 minutes ago, Crocoduck said:

Could those of you in the know explain this idea? Do churches have trials? Do guilty church members have to go to church jail? Do they get a time out or get their allowance taken away? Please educate me on this aspect of the fundie world.

Churches practices different types of discipline, from shunning (probably best known in connection to the Amish or Jehova's Witnesses) to temporary removal from positions in the church and a talking to by the pastor.

Short answers to your questions: Some churches will have a form of trial. Church jail in the form of shunning, I've never heard of an actual physical incarseration. Could happen.

Probably some of the most infamous cases in the fundie-world most followed here are that of Epstein vs. Boerne Assembly (Doug Phillips), which can be read about on Jennifer Epsetin's blog "Jen's Gems", Cheryl Lindsey Seelhof vs. basically the entire quiverfull culture, coveder by Kathryn Joyce in "Quiverfull" and there is a short docu on youtube. also the case of raped teenager Tina Anderson who was put on "trial" by her independent Baptist Church.
Those wouæd be a good place to start if you are interested in modern patriarchal-culture church discipline. 

[MakeitSew]

In a former church I attended church discipline went down this way:

If you were suspected of doing something "wrong" the church elders called a meeting with you. If you failed to show up, you were put under church discipline. If you showed up and the meeting was unsatisfactory (you didn't "repent") you were put under church discipline. If  you showed up, admitted to whatever wrongdoing you were accused of but didn't have a properly "repentant" attitude you were put under church discipline. Basically if you didn't kiss the asses of the elders  you were put in church discipline. 

While under church discipline, you were not allowed to attend the church, come on church property (although this is legally questionable) and basically treated like a horrific criminal. Church members were not to "fellowship" with you. Some would break the rules and say hi if they saw you, say, at a store or a school function that both your kids attended. You were also put on the churches public prayer list, as someone who had "spiritual needs". 

To get out of church discipline the guilty party had to appear before the congregation and publically apologize for whatever it was they did (this could range from sexual sins to addiction issues to not attending church frequently enough). The body would then welcome back their lost sheep into the fold. 

This was important to do, because, as the pastor told me, until the church forgives you, God won't. 

It was serious BS but yeah, they believed they were right. 

[OnceUponATime]

 

The biggest issue I ever saw handled in a fundie-lite church was one where a leader committed a crime (one that could get a prison term) while sort of representing the church. The victim was not a christian, the church leaders convinced the victim to go down the path of 'restorative justice' instead of reporting the crime.  This was all done behind closed doors. We knew about it because it was announced at church one Sunday - along with the effective stepping down from leadership, confession/apology and an explanation of what was going to happen next. (and telling us "This is not to be gossiped about, if you need to talk about it please arrange an appointment with the pastor. Thank you.")

Restorative justice included:

• reparation of the crime, above and beyond
• public confession and apology in church
• written apology to the victim and a few others
• stripped of role and an agreement to taking no leadership position in any church for the next few years (it was a defined period that I've forgotten)
• stripping of all church privileges* leader had
• the person was to stay attending that church and not run away in shame - the threat was there that if they did a police report would be filed

* this is things like: being able to speak in church, having any sort of access to the keys, being able to use the buildings to organize any sort of activities, voting rights taken away

[Crocoduck]

4 minutes ago, MakeitSew said:

This was important to do, because, as the pastor told me, until the church forgives you, God won't. 

This is...wow. Even as an avowed heathen I know this is not what Jesus would do!

Seriously, thank you all for sharing experiences and rabbit holes to explore. There is other good stuff going on in the JillR thread now too. Very enlightening.

[molecule]

I have a friend who was recently part of a church disciplinary proceeding. There were two families who were spreading gossip rather than using a biblical approach to resolving differences (according to Matthew 18). This had been an issue for well over a year, and with a great deal of prayer and anguish, the church board determined that the only possible option was discipline. The families were asked to find other congregations for worship and bible study for the period of a year. The church offered assistance in connecting them with other congregations that might be a better fit. The church outlined a process by which the families could be readmitted into fellowship at the end of the year.

Most of the church discipline I know of has to do with removal from leadership positions and participation in restorative counseling as a result of gross sin (usually infidelity). All the cases I know of were done with great discretion, with only the pastor and a couple elders/board members aware of the situation. Church members under discipline were allowed to resign from those positions, so no one else even knew that they were under discipline. The fundie version of church discipline has much more of a shaming-in-front-of-the-community approach. Most churches approach it as an attempt to help the member reconcile with God and others, along with following what the bible says about leaders being held to higher standards.

[FundieFarmer]

Das meeee. Guilty of starting that! 

In our overarching denomination, it really depends on the subdenomination you're in and how reformed/conservative they are. If you are on the more conservative end, things are taken more seriously, and if you're more liberal, there probably isn't much by way of church discipline. Obviously if you're a preacher and you do something publicly wrong you'll be removed, but that's about it.

With the more conservative churches, they tend to get down into the nitty gritty, and you commit to allowing them to do that when you join. It depends on what you do, but it can be anything from spousal disputes, to not preaching the Covenant word, to anything the church disagrees with. If the church finds out about it, you're called before the session and the discipline proceeds from there. The punishments range from exclusion from the sacrament, defrocking from leadership positions, excommunication, counseling, etc. I'm pretty sure you can still attend the church and all that, unless you got straight up excommunicated from membership.

As I said in the Jill thread, if you really love your church and church community, it makes a big difference and it can be really scary. If you don't, it probably doesn't really matter much to you if you get called in. 

[Closed Womb]

First, I want to say that the majority of mainstream, Protestant, non-denominational (or not strongly affiliated with a denomination) churches I have attended or known about do not use church discipline as a normal means of dealing with run-of-the-mill congregants.  There were many leaders who did something afoul who were found out, discussed at meetings, and the decisions were announced publicly (always stripped of the leadership roles, sometimes permanently, sometimes for a year with a review afterward.)  Although the disgraced leader would usually leave, it was generally considered bad form to kick a sinner from the church, unless s/he could be a danger to others, because...well, for obvious reasons.  Anyway, these were serious moral and/or legal failings, like embezzlement, child molestation, and adultery.  Things that really should get someone removed from church leadership.  To my knowledge, there was never any cover-ups of illegal activities, and the one child molester I was aware of did face a jury and prison time (and was told to leave the church.)  

To my knowledge, the Catholic church does not take this kind of action (I was raised Catholic.) 

However, some of the smaller, stricter churches that I either attended/visited or my friends belonged to had some pretty clear disciplinary actions (I liked to visit different churches and I never really stayed at one for much longer than a year for many reasons beyond my control, like the church closing or moving, or my own moves, an offensive change in doctrine, etc.)

In one case, a friend of mine (a doctor in her late 30's, who was divorced) was publicly reprimanded because she and her then-fiance were having sex.  Essentially, the guilt got to one of them, they confessed, he was stripped of leadership roles (Elder, I think).  A statement was read about their sexual sin in the evening service, they apologized to the congregation, and they were both welcome to stay.  He left, she stayed, and it's still her church today.  (Aside: about 6 months after this happened, she married one of the church members/minor leaders who went to her house to counsel her after the confession.  They've been married about 15 years now.)  

This is usually how it went.  Some kind of sexual sin, confession, responsibilities taken away (don't want to be a poor role model), welcome to stay.  If they did stay, there was usually some kind of "testimony" that came from it, and eventually a restoration of any lost roles.  The person usually used their story as some sort of cautionary tale to others, redeemed by the blood of Christ, but would have been better to not go through the trials, blah, blah.  Naturally, I am talking about premarital sex, affairs, and, in one situation, an affinity for particularly degrading kink that the guys wife did not consent to.  This never happened over issues like masturbation or simple dating with non-penetrative sexual contact.  Those things might lead to a conversation with the pastor (if the person felt guilty) but it would not be a reason for church discipline.  And, naturally, a much stronger stance was taken on any illegal activities.  Molestation and abuse were not tolerated, period. 

I do know of one friend who is Mormon and lost her temple recommend when her sister informed their Ward Leader (I don't know...Bishop?) that her husband and her sister (my friend) were having an affair (they were; they still are.)  But, I think that's a little more widely accepted in the Mormon church (or at least expected) vs. unregulated "church discipline."  

For reference, all of these churches (except the Mormon temple) were in Florida, in major metropolitan areas. 

 

[molecule]

I've always attended mainstream Protestant churches, and I was never aware of church discipline at the time. I found out years later when my husband and I were told privately by the people who had been disciplined (there were three separate situations). I was shocked, but at the same time I was glad that it had been handled so discreetly that I hadn't even been aware of it. That's the way it should be done, I think. Public shaming might encourage better behavior, but it doesn't do much to transform hearts.

[Crocoduck]

This is all really helpful. Thank you so much, everyone.

As @Closed Womb said, the Catholic church - at least in the US - does not do this kind of thing. At the very worst, your priest might ask you to not take Communion until you've confessed. I can't imagine being called up in front of the whole Congregation because you had consensual sex with your 30-something fiance.

This puts some fundie actions into perspective. The thought of being publicly humiliated for doing normal adult things must be terrifying.

[Georgiana]

(Catholic)  My Aunt is not allowed to take Communion because her husband had a previous marriage (so she is technically living in adultery).  While you don't get called up, you do have to stand there all on your own in the midst of 2 or 3 empty rows.  During a "big" mass like Christmas and Easter it's not so bad, but on any given Sunday, there's likely to be only one or two adults in the congregation that don't take Communion.

It can be pretty conspicuous.  

[purple_summer]

This is how it worked in the home church we were a part of. A leader or other congregant could submit a "church matters" form. The complaint could be anything really, I got written up once for asking to go to the library too much, someone got written up for not spending enough time with their daughter, really asinine stuff. After service (or during lunch break, it varied. Occasionally it got pushed to Monday night leadership meetings) the church matters would be read and the party(ies) in question would have to answer for their actions with their individual leader. The leader would then decide what the punishment and it would be recorded on an "action items" sheet. Everything was on carbon paper so a copy would go to you and one would be in your binder. I think I still have a pic of an action items sheet somewhere, not sure if I have the actual church matters form anymore. 

Church matters is how a few of my friends got kicked out and how I was told I had to quit sports. Fun times.

[Georgiana]

Also, just throwing it out there, a lot of this Church discipline sounds remarkably similar to the way discipline was handled in my sorority.  

[FundieFarmer]

Also, just throwing it out there, a lot of this Church discipline sounds remarkably similar to the way discipline was handled in my sorority.  

Now that you mention it, session does sound like standards [emoji23]

[happy atheist]

I had the same reaction to this in the Jilly thread as you, @Crocoduck. And I still don't get it.

Church is a voluntary thing, right?

[Crocoduck]

18 minutes ago, happy atheist said:

I had the same reaction to this in the Jilly thread as you, @Crocoduck. And I still don't get it.

Church is a voluntary thing, right?

Yeah, it's a hard thing to wrap my head around. I guess from my perspective, if you're not paying me, you don't get to order me around. And the older I get, the more expensive I become to order around!

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I wanted to emphasize that the disciplinary structure varies widely depending on the sect & organizational structure.

I know that it has come up with people like Gothard, Wilson and Mark Driscoll because the impression is that no one can reign them in - that they don't answer to the church in the way that they should.

In the extreme, this:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ny-church-killing-20151014-story.html is about church discipline.

[Crocoduck]

@SpoonfulOSugar Wow. That's a great example of "discipline" taken way too far.

I remember watching a documentary about Jim Jones and the People's Temple which described church members being spanked as a form of control. This makes sense in the context of a cult. I do wonder if some of the more extreme fundie churches cross that line as well.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Just now, Crocoduck said:

@SpoonfulOSugar Wow. That's a great example of "discipline" taken way too far.

I remember watching a documentary about Jim Jones and the People's Temple which described church members being spanked as a form of control. This makes sense in the context of a cult. I do wonder if some of the more extreme fundie churches cross that line as well.

The FLDS (which has one-man rule - and he is essentially without anyone to answer to) is one of my "gateway" organizations.

I'm fascinated by cults, so the other organization gateway for me is a 7th Day Adventist, millennial, New Age . . . cult?  I'm not really sure if it would be defined by all as fundamentalist, though.

I do think the social pressures within really strict churches have some semblance to cults.  I know @Silver Beach has shared that she believes her previous church experience was in a cult.  (I am tired and cannot remember which it is.)

[GenerationCedarchip]

As others have said, discipline varies a lot depending on type of church. I come from a reformed Presby background and while I'm still reformed Presby, I'd never call my current church fundie. 

In my old church, discipline was very much a thing.  As a woman, I was obviously never on Session, but my understanding is the pastor would first meet with the accused privately to talk about whatever had been raised. That apparently resolved most things. However, if it didn't, then the person would be called to meet with Session. That's when you'd get into sending folks to counseling or other remedies.  

Generally, most things weren't made public. Some weird stuff came out of church discipline but I will give Session credit for not making people go apologize in gory detail to the congregation for any private sins.  The public apologies were saved for folks deemed to have harmed the congregation as a whole (i.e. the volunteer who helped himself to free office supplies to start his own business). However, even without public apology, you still have gossip.  Everyone always wanted to chat up the elders' wives after a special Session meeting! 

The part I found unsettling when I was there were the excommunications.  If someone was excommunicated, a notice would go in the Sunday bulletin telling us Jane Doe was excommunicated and we were to alert staff at once if this person is seen on premises.  Those always bothered me because most of the excommunications I knew of involved the church taking one side or another in a marital dispute, and for a few, I got the distinct sense that they'd only heard 1 side of the issue.

[MakeitSew]

What frightens me is the assumed control that some churches have over their members. Even though I identify as Christian I am extremely wary about getting involved in a church. Becoming a church member IS a voluntary thing. The thought that a group of leaders can decide if/when/how to punish a person not living up to their (manmade, honestly) standards is appalling. In the situation with the church I previously wrote about a member could not even withdraw membership unless that person was on good terms with the elders. If a member wanted to establish membership elsewhere by transferring membership, the elders would not give a letter of transfer if the person was not conforming to their guidelines. To leave without the approval of the elders meant that, to the church, you were still a member but you were in church discipline until the time you came back and repented to the congregation. To leave without the approval of the elders was to strike out on your own with the emotional loss of a close knit community and the shame of being called out for your bad behavior. The leaders would attempt to find out what church the sinning member was newly attending and "warn" the spiritual leaders of the new church about the wolf in sheeps clothing among them. Blackmail, threats and intimidation were utilized with terrible efficiency. Plain abuse. 

It was chilling for me to realize that this church was indeed a cult. A dangerous one, because to the outsider the church was appealing. Modern music, praise bands, no rules about modest dress, fun youth groups, etc. But once you were in, you were stuck unless you reached the point (like I did) where you didn't give a flying f*ck anymore about how the leaders and congregation would react to your "rebellion". Sad thing is that if the person who left still had family members in the congregation the family was instructed to not fellowship with their own son/daughter/spouse/sibling, etc. 

 

[closetcagebaby]

1 hour ago, Crocoduck said:

Yeah, it's a hard thing to wrap my head around. I guess from my perspective, if you're not paying me, you don't get to order me around. And the older I get, the more expensive I become to order around!

I think the problem is that it can be hard to wrap your head being so invested in a church structure as a community that you'd be willing to put up with just about anything. It seems ridiculous if you haven't been inundated with the idea that obedience (to your church, to your headship, to whatever...) is a virtue above all, but that's the case for many people involved in these communities.

[Crocoduck]

10 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

I think the problem is that it can be hard to wrap your head being so invested in a church structure as a community that you'd be willing to put up with just about anything. It seems ridiculous if you haven't been inundated with the idea that obedience (to your church, to your headship, to whatever...) is a virtue above all, but that's the case for many people involved in these communities.

The bolded portion helps this make a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanation.

[closetcagebaby]

5 minutes ago, Crocoduck said:

The bolded portion helps this make a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanation.

I've really had to learn to take a step back and try to look at things through wayyyy different eyes, because I was raised much closer to Sparkling Lauren style than fundie. It's hard! It's such a totally opposite worldview from what I know.

[RosyDaisy]

My church doesn't dicipline except in the case of actual serious crimes. Those are also reported to proper legal authorities,