Another charge of abuse by Christian adoptive parents in Kansas

[blessalessi]

4 hours ago, justwatching said:

It's a very small, tight-knit, conservative in terms of lifestyle (not necessarily politically), very religious with one denomination as the vast majority, but NOT in any way extreme or fundamentalist (think your typical mostly-Catholic town of normal people, for example).

This is so incredibly shocking and everyone is having a very hard time wrapping their brains around it.  As soon as I saw the news reports I knew exactly where the house was by the surroundings shown in the video. The church shown in the video is my sister's church, but must have been a speaking engagement because this family doesn't attend there.

Here is a Facebook notice from Grace Community Church where they are advertising an evening put on by the churche's in-house adoption ministry team, that views overseas adoption as part of a mission strategy: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=859825954115660&id=270140359750892&fs=0  Paige Nachtigal was the leader of a special weekend retreat for adoptive and foster moms.

Is that your sister's not-fundie church, or are we talking at cross-purposes?

 

[refugee]

34 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

From my research, the organiser of the prayer march, ?Treena somebody, also seems to be a member of the same fundie homeschooling circles as the Nachtigals, from her online presence, so I very much doubt that her prayer walk was a neutral quest for the truth to come out, as you suggest.  I  don't know why those people felt the need to propel themselves into the spotlight and wave banners for Jesus during the court hearing but it is hard to see it as anything but some sort of holier-than-thou posturing, from where I am standing.   What the hell did they expect Jesus to do at that stage of play, when the police investigation was already so far underway that there was enough evidence to detail the Nachtigals on several serious counts?  

 But you see, they have more than likely been brainwashed by their homeschool leadership and mentors and HSLDA that the government is out to get their children, to take away the children of godly families (because "persecution"), that evil neighbors are always watching for an opportunity to make anonymous accusations, that social workers are lurking in the bushes, ready to knock on the door and force their way in and interview the children without the parents present so they can put false, condemning lies in the children's mouths, so they can take the children away from the godly family and put them into the worldly system where they can be properly indoctrinated with such hellish horrors as the UN Convention of the Child.

Believe me, I heard that kind of fear-mongering for *years*, and was stupid and gullible and brainwashed enough to believe it.

We were taught that all love and grace and safety resided within the xtian homeschool community, and outside that invisible circle people were nasty, corrupt, and evil, and sought only to corrupt our children so they'd be lost for eternity.

The brainwashing is real. It does not absolve the brainwashed from responsibility, but it explains some of what makes it so hard to break free. They really are not right in their minds. It's a kind of mental illness that the parents (not those born into the movement) took on voluntarily. They took it on voluntarily, but now they are well and truly trapped in it. I wonder if the brain chemistry actually changes when one is constantly bathed in fear and paranoia?

(I am not dissing those with legitimate, biologically based mental illness -- we deal with it in our immediate and extended family.)

[justwatching]

Well obviously the victims are the most important.  I thought that went without saying.  That's the whole point of this thread and the investigation.  The fact that I may have come across otherwise is hard for *me* to swallow.

I'm respectfully stepping out of this conversation now - not hairflipping, it's just too personal.  As I said above, I'm not intimately familiar with that specific church or their entire membership, although I do know quite a few of them and they're regular people just like the rest of us.  I can't tell you what the rest of them are thinking or not thinking.  I can't tell you if they beat their children or not. I have no idea if they still support them or if they don't.  I can tell you that every single person I've talked to from there is as horrified as the rest of us, and that the area itself is in no way supportive of this type of behavior.

Apparently what I understood as the definition of fundy is vastly different from what others think, and that's ok, I just didn't realize it.  My apologies if I've offended anyone.  Again this is extremely personal for me, this is my home, so no doubt I'm defensive.

I will continue my prayers for the children, all of the authorities who have had to witness the horror in which they lived, and yes also for the parents.  I hope that others will also contribute their prayers, good thoughts, vibes, whatever is appropriate for their beliefs.

 

[blessalessi]

I don't disagree that some followers are brainwashed in this way @refugee.  I am questioning @justwatching, who seems to be claiming that the church and the prayer march organiser are not actually fundies.

I don't want to pick a fight about it, but I also don't want this thread to be silenced just because the subject matter is geographically close to home for some readers. 

From what I can see so far, the Prayer March was organised by a local woman called Trenna Davenport who belongs to a local evangelical fundie church, is active in local homeschooling and missionary circles and has commented on Paige Nachtigal's blog as recently as last December.  

 

Like Paige, she seems to be a leader, not a follower, and she has put herself in the media spotlight on a number of occasions.  That does not make her complicit in Paige's behaviour, but it doesn't make her look like a neutral bystander either. 

 

[justwatching]

19 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

I don't disagree that some followers are brainwashed in this way @refugee.  I am questioning @justwatching, who seems to be claiming that the church and the prayer march organiser are not actually fundies.

I don't want to pick a fight about it, but I also don't want this thread to be silenced just because the subject matter is geographically close to home for some readers. 

From what I can see so far, the Prayer March was organised by a local woman called Trenna Davenport who belongs to a local evangelical fundie church, is active in local homeschooling and missionary circles and has commented on Paige Nachtigal's blog as recently as last December.  

 

Like Paige, she seems to be a leader, not a follower, and she has put herself in the media spotlight on a number of occasions.  That does not make her complicit in Paige's behaviour, but it doesn't make her look like a neutral bystander either. 

 

I know I said I was trying to step away, but I feel I should clarify that.  From what I saw on their website, I did not see anything that stuck out at me as being fundy.  I have no knowledge of the church other than what I have read online and what my friends have told me/what I see in their lives, so I'm in no way claiming to know everything about it.  I also said that I wasn't a theological or fundy expert.  Just because none of the people I know who go there aren't fundie, doesn't mean the church itself isn't.  I thought I had made that clear but apparently not. 

Please carry on with the thread, don't stop on my account.  This is a very real problem and this case is actually proof that it happens in areas where it wouldn't be expected.  It does need to be brought into the light in order to help educate people like myself who believed "it can't happen here", and then are completely blown away when they discover it did.  I'm not being snarky, I truly believe that.

I have no idea if Ms. Davenport was aware of the abuse happening in the home or not.  I pray she didn't.

[blessalessi]

16 minutes ago, justwatching said:

 

Apparently what I understood as the definition of fundy is vastly different from what others think, and that's ok, I just didn't realize it.  My apologies if I've offended anyone.  Again this is extremely personal for me, this is my home, so no doubt I'm defensive.

I will continue my prayers for the children, all of the authorities who have had to witness the horror in which they lived, and yes also for the parents.  I hope that others will also contribute their prayers, good thoughts, vibes, whatever is appropriate for their beliefs.

Don't worry at all about offending us.  But please also don't ask us to limit the discussion about this.

My hope is that the words of Luke 17:2 will dwell in the hearts of everyone involved in the abuse.

[refugee]

True, @blessalessi -- I hadn't even thought about the thread being shut down.

I have no sympathy for the manipulators and leaders, for the most part -- except I was something of a leader for some years, when we were in the thick of it. I wish I could take back the stuff I parroted to people who looked to me as a voice of reason, back when I believed it. Things like the "stay home" message -- how can you effectively homeschool if you're always in the car? And yet those outside classes made a difference, provided structure and substance.

I also fully believed in homeschooling through high school, and maybe even doing college online.

Nowadays I no longer believe in the one-size-fits-all solution.

So maybe that woman who organized the prayer walk is shaken by all this, and will re-examine her life. And maybe her head is so far up her ass that nothing will shake her. I can hope for the "re-examination" I guess.

In practical terms, all I can do is keep my eyes open. We were at a recent homeschool event (I tend to avoid them, but we went to this one) and a girl there twinged my spidey senses. I did what I could (talked to a relevant adult, and revealed some of our own previously hidden dirty laundry in the process in order to explain my concerns), and I hope it helps more than it harms.

 

 

[justwatching]

3 minutes ago, refugee said:

True, @blessalessi -- I hadn't even thought about the thread being shut down.

I have no sympathy for the manipulators and leaders, for the most part -- except I was something of a leader for some years, when we were in the thick of it. I wish I could take back the stuff I parroted to people who looked to me as a voice of reason, back when I believed it. Things like the "stay home" message -- how can you effectively homeschool if you're always in the car? And yet those outside classes made a difference, provided structure and substance.

I also fully believed in homeschooling through high school, and maybe even doing college online.

Nowadays I no longer believe in the one-size-fits-all solution.

So maybe that woman who organized the prayer walk is shaken by all this, and will re-examine her life. And maybe her head is so far up her ass that nothing will shake her. I can hope for the "re-examination" I guess.

In practical terms, all I can do is keep my eyes open. We were at a recent homeschool event (I tend to avoid them, but we went to this one) and a girl there twinged my spidey senses. I did what I could (talked to a relevant adult, and revealed some of our own previously hidden dirty laundry in the process in order to explain my concerns), and I hope it helps more than it harms.

 

 

I hope so, as well.  I'm happy to see that you have used your former experiences for the good.

I'm not sure where the shutting down of the thread came from.  I never asked for it, in fact I stated I felt it should continue.

(and now I really do have to go to work.  As I said before, if I hear of a statement put out by the church I'll pass it along)

[sawasdee]

I may be misremembering, but isn't this one of a series of cases where adoptions by fundies in Kansas have ended in abuse? And without intervention by CPS? I am astounded that the law enforcement authorities claim that at least 10 complaints were made to CPS without any being referred to law enforcement, and, as far as we can see, without any action by CPS. This is scary.

If CPS is ignoring complaints against 'christian' adoptions, then it is time for an investigation of CPS. Religion has no place in the supervision of child welfare.

[blessalessi]

9 minutes ago, refugee said:

I wish I could take back the stuff I parroted to people who looked to me as a voice of reason, back when I believed it. Things like the "stay home" message -- how can you effectively homeschool if you're always in the car? And yet those outside classes made a difference, provided structure and substance.

I also fully believed in homeschooling through high school, and maybe even doing college online.

Nowadays I no longer believe in the one-size-fits-all solution.

Just to be clear, I was agreeing with what you said earlier, my disagreement was with the other poster.

My concern is not about the thread being actually shut down... that doesn't happen here.  But it is really getting on my tits at this stage that @justwatching keeps posting about how this thread is so painful for her, and is pleading with us not to feel badly of her community, but she has not responded to the direct links I have posted which seem to contradict @justwatching's assertions that Paige and Jim Nachtigal are not legitimately connected with Grace Community Church and the Newton homeschooling and mission community. 

I remember some of your other posts and I really sympathise with your position as someone who used to be on the "other side" and I appreciate your perspective, I really do.  It is refreshing to hear from people who have come through the other side and are willing to talk about it.  I have left the Church behind too, and I understand the many levels at which people can get sucked in.

I just absolutely can't get with the " Please don't feel badly about my community" argument that @justwatching is spouting, especially in a context where noone was pointing the finger at the whole community.

Some things are so serious that, no matter how personal it feels, the community at large just needs to shut the fuck up and let justice take its course. I suspect that @justwatching is probably more invested in the local fundie churches than she originally let on, and if she needs to step out of the conversation for that reason, so be it.  

[formergothardite]

The church link to brought up the Bible being literal, the rapture happening soon, men being the family leaders and then had to get a dig at the idea of evolution, so they seem a bit on the fundie side to me.  I find it troublesome that the prayer organizers who were supposedly praying for the truth didn't publicly condemn this couple for the abuse after they got the truth. They shed some tears but none issued a public statement condemning the adults? 

 

[justwatching]

50 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

Just to be clear, I was agreeing with what you said earlier, my disagreement was with the other poster.

My concern is not about the thread being actually shut down... that doesn't happen here.  But it is really getting on my tits at this stage that @justwatching keeps posting about how this thread is so painful for her, and is pleading with us not to feel badly of her community, but she has not responded to the direct links I have posted which seem to contradict @justwatching's assertions that Paige and Jim Nachtigal are not legitimately connected with Grace Community Church and the Newton homeschooling and mission community. 

I remember some of your other posts and I really sympathise with your position as someone who used to be on the "other side" and I appreciate your perspective, I really do.  It is refreshing to hear from people who have come through the other side and are willing to talk about it.  I have left the Church behind too, and I understand the many levels at which people can get sucked in.

I just absolutely can't get with the " Please don't feel badly about my community" argument that @justwatching is spouting, especially in a context where noone was pointing the finger at the whole community.

Some things are so serious that, no matter how personal it feels, the community at large just needs to shut the fuck up and let justice take its course. I suspect that @justwatching is probably more invested in the local fundie churches than she originally let on, and if she needs to step out of the conversation for that reason, so be it.  

I don't know how I can be more clear.  I do not know Paige and Jim Nachtigal personally.  I have never met them.  I had never heard of them until last week when the news broke.  I did say I knew where their house was because I grew up about a mile away.  I have no idea if they lived there at that time or not.  I did not comment on the links you posted because I have been reading about this case for several days now and have already seen most of them, and I didn't feel they were relevant to what I was saying.

I had been told (by media, incidentally, who is never wrong) that they had been speaking at Grace Church in the video but did not attend there.  I did not know they attended there until today. 

I do not homeschool.  I was not raised homeschool.  I do not know anyone in Newton who does homeschool.

I do not, nor have I ever, attended Grace Church.  I know nothing about their theology other than what I read on their website (which incidentally I had already been to prior to your posting the link).  I assume that is where you found your information on them, as well. If not, I would be interested in the sources you found that gave more information on them.  I did not know that the things on their website were deemed fundy, but will admit that I only looked at their theology statements and not the extracurriculars.  I am still a bit confused as to that part but have stated more than once that I am not a fundy expert by any means so conceded that it was entirely possible that they were and I was just too stupid to figure it out.  I have no idea why they didn't cancel their kids program or whatever when this came out.  Again, I have nothing to do with them aside from knowing some attendees.  They are not located in North Newton, where the abuse occurred.

I have stated from the very beginning that I wanted justice for the children.  Never in any of my posts have I ever even hinted that I felt the parents should not be punished to the full extent of the law.  I have repeatedly posted that I am disgusted by the actions of the parents and heartbroken for the children.

My sole purpose in participating in this post was to state that the Nachtigals are in no way an accurate representative of the community in which I grew up, which some of the earlier posts seemed to allude to. That was it.  I will own the fact that I probably said way more than I needed to in terms of talking about the community, and I apologize for that. 

I am happy to answer any questions you or anyone else may have about me and my upbringing and/or current lifestyle, and you can decide for yourselves if I am "invested" in a fundy church.  I attend a common mainstream Christian denomination. If all Christians are considered fundies, then I guess I am. However, that's not the way I've perceived it from reading here at FJ.   In fact, here are the things that I've gleaned from FJ over the time that I've been reading here, that I've understood to be fundie.

1. Is/was my Dad or Husband dominant over the family - nope - equal partnership

2.  Was I homeschooled? Nope - went to public school

3.  Was I kept sequestered at home and away from society?  nope.  in fact I was very involved in school and other events and was rarely home in the afternoons/evenings. 

4.  Was I discouraged from going to college?  nope - in fact it was very much encouraged.  I went to a Christian college but it was not of my denomination.  my parents had no problem with that, they were very excited for my choice

5.  Was I ever spanked?  nope  Sent to bed without supper?  nope  Hit with a rod or pipe?  nope.  Punished in other unconventional ways?  nope

6.  Do I have a slew of siblings?  nope - just one sister

7.  Did my Mom stay home with the children? nope - co-owned a business with my Dad

8.  Was I forced to go to church every Sunday? nope  Forced to stay in the denomination? nope - was encouraged to participate in other churches and see where I felt I fit the best

9.  Was I expected to stay home and help in the family business?  nope - in fact I was encouraged to follow whatever my interests might be

10.  Was I adopted from overseas?  Have a sibling adopted from overseas?  Known anyone who was or did adopt from overseas? Have a church committee or program dedicated to adopting from overseas? Nope nope nope & nope

11.  Written a cheesy religious home-keeping blog?  nope

12.  Worn a frumper?  When I was pregnant in the 90s  Exclusively wear skirts? Nope - jeans, shorts, swimsuits.  I do draw the line at bikinis and hooker boots, however.

13.  Ever heard of Bill Gothard or IBLP or any of the other folks and propaganda and books and etc that are talked about here?  not until I started reading on FJ

I'm sure there are some that I've missed, but you get the idea.

I'm not sure what else I can do or say, short of breaking into the jail and flogging the the Nachtigals myself.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.  If not, I'll try to keep my mouth shut.  You can condemn Grace Church, their members, etc all you want.  Just leave me personally out of it.

Carry on.

ETA: And now I must go back to work for the rest of the evening/night, lest anyone think I'm running off or hiding.  My media job awaits.

[blessalessi]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 I find it troublesome that the prayer organizers who were supposedly praying for the truth didn't publicly condemn this couple for the abuse after they got the truth. They shed some tears but none issued a public statement condemning the adults? 

Yes, this exactly.

I suspect that Trenna Davenport knew damn well people would connect the dots between her and Paige Nachtigal and for some reason she decided to make a public spectacle of herself, without quite coming down on either side of the fence.  She might as well have walked round with an "I'm an ignorant dick"  banner, for all the good she did with that march.

That prayer walk to petition Jesus to reveal the truth was so pointless in the face of the giant stack of evidence collated by the police that, frankly, I would have given Jesus a pass if he had rolled his eyes in embarassment and scuttled off to Leavenworth for the day, to help find Teri Maxwell a new phone cover.  For once, her prayers would have been less ridiculous than at least one other believer in Kansas.

[blessalessi]

7 hours ago, justwatching said:

The church shown in the video is my sister's church, but must have been a speaking engagement because this family doesn't attend there.

@ justwatching, the above quote is what you originally said when we were discussing Paige Nachtigal's missionary and adoption ministries at Grace Community Church, and it was the fact that you mentioned your sister that led me to think this was personal to you.  In your more recent post, you  say your connection to GCC is  solely through your media connections Maybe, as I suggested earlier, we have our wires crossed over this and your sister belongs to a different church altogether?

In any case, I think what @formergothardite said about the Courthouse Prayer Marchers applies equally to the GCC church leadership.  It is just about reasonable for them to maintain a silence and an open mind until the evidence was brought to light.  At this stage though, they really need to acknowledge and condemn the abusive behaviour, if they want to maintain credibility. They allowed Jim and Paige to shill for money and to assume leadership roles in their church and they need to apologise for the terrible mistake they made in not checking that their own house was in order, and their family properly cared for.

[justwatching]

3 hours ago, blessalessi said:

@ justwatching, the above quote is what you originally said when we were discussing Paige Nachtigal's missionary and adoption ministries at Grace Community Church, and it was the fact that you mentioned your sister that led me to think this was personal to you.  In your more recent post, you  say your connection to GCC is  solely through your media connections Maybe, as I suggested earlier, we have our wires crossed over this and your sister belongs to a different church altogether?

In any case, I think what @formergothardite said about the Courthouse Prayer Marchers applies equally to the GCC church leadership.  It is just about reasonable for them to maintain a silence and an open mind until the evidence was brought to light.  At this stage though, they really need to acknowledge and condemn the abusive behaviour, if they want to maintain credibility. They allowed Jim and Paige to shill for money and to assume leadership roles in their church and they need to apologise for the terrible mistake they made in not checking that their own house was in order, and their family properly cared for.

A little more clarification, hopefully it is helpful.  I do feel as if I'm repeating myself on some things but am happy to try to explain further if necessary.

I wholeheartedly agree that GCC should immediately remove Mrs. Nachtigal from whatever positions she held at the church, and issue a public statement regarding this issue.  So far as I'm concerned, that's a given.  I have never felt nor stated otherwise.  They owe it to the children.  I am not defending GCC, nor do I intend to.  I read the same website you did, apparently we interpreted it differently in terms of whether the church is fundy or not.  I addressed that in my earlier post.  I also acknowledged earlier that I had only read the doctrine and mission statement pages, so apparently missed the information about Mrs. Nachtigal's adoption group.

I have never said that my "connection" to GCC was through my media connections.  I said that I was told by media (as recently as yesterday) that the Nachtigals did NOT attend GCC.  Apparently, the media source that said such was incorrect (even though they always have their facts straight), and further information has come to light that yes, the Nachtigals do/did attend GCC.  I acknowledged that earlier in the thread. 

The "connection" I do have is that I know some people that attend GCC.  They did not know the Nachtigals personally, nor were they involved with any of the committees or events the Nachtigals were involved with. When I asked them last Thursday if the Nachtigals attended GCC, they were unsure because they had never heard of them.  It's a big church.  They did not attend services there this past Sunday, so they aren't able to tell me if anything was said during services or not.  They are disgusted by this situation.  They aren't fundies (at least, by what I thought the definition of fundie was).  I don't know if other members of the church are or aren't.

My sister is a member of a different church. 

I did comment in an earlier post that in that community, it would not be unusual for people to hold a public vigil to pray for truth and justice, so it didn't surprise me that there were people outside the courthouse.  Therefore, I took it at face value that the "demonstration" was in support of the children, and of the truth being revealed and justice served.

I have not heard if Ms. Davenport and courthouse protesters have spoken out since the press conference information was made public.  According to the article, they were praying for the truth, and the truth they received. That made them cry.  Unless there's been another article/story published with an updated statement from the group, that's all that is known.

Obviously, if there were church members, adoption group members, homeschool group members, mailmen, etc. who were aware of the abuse and either didn't report it or assisted in hiding it, they are to be ashamed of themselves and are partly responsible for what happened to those poor kids.  If that is the case, I share your disgust at their behavior.

I'm not sure exactly how this all spiraled, as I said earlier sometimes I'm not very good at conveying what I'm intending to say over the Internet.  Yes, I did feel the need to defend my community.  No doubt I gave more information than necessary.  I own that.

What I should have said was this:

This horrible story took place in my hometown.  Please don't think that the community condones this type of behavior.  Our prayers are with the victims.

I hope that clears things up.

 

 

[blessalessi]

18 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Is this church the one the Nachtigels attended and where they're appearing in the video the OP linked to? If so, it sure seems fundie to me as does Paige Nachtigel's "ministry" statement -- from the pulpit -- about their oh-so-wonderful plan to move to back to Peru and convert the heathen while living off donations.

...

I won't be holding my breath over that, though because, unfortunately, I'm guessing that some of the Nachtigels' fellow church members are the ones rebuking critical commenters in this news clip.

My goodness, I just read those Facebook comments.  I'm glad that many local people responded in justified horror, but still!

Quote

Metrice Calderon Long rant ahead - I am saddened to see such hateful comments from so many people. I didn't realize all of you were there and you know all of the facts.

We have become a society where we are so quick to vilify a person(s) based off of what we hear on TV or a social network, and we all know there are no lies ever told there. Right? In a matter of a day, most of you have condemned this couple who, I would bet money on, does not know this family but are only going by what you've heard or seen on TV.

What I do know, many children who are adopted from different countries come over here with MANY broken bones that were never given the chance to heal properly, either from lack of funds, lack of care or people being heartless.

Secondly, MANY children who are adopted have suffered a lifetime of being malnourished and, even as adults, they may NEVER fully recover from that and this couple could have been working on that issue.

Thirdly, I believe we are still supposed to be a country where people get a trial before we hang them; not the other way around.

And, lastly, you do not know the mental state of this child or children. Unfortunately, MANY children in foster care or orphanages have been known to lie because of what they have had to endure. No, I do not know this couple but how dare I or any of you condemn them without knowing all the facts. If there is evidence that they are guilty, then so be it, let justice prevail and may those children be placed in loving homes. But if they are found to be innocent & none of you were a witness to any of this, then may you all feel guilty for condemning them for a crime that was not meant to be laid at their feet. Proverbs 19:9

To be fair to the poster, after another half dozen rants, she finally takes her own advice and posts a one-liner to acknowledge that she now has seen more evidence, and agrees that things don't look good for the parents.   From her FB profile she belongs to a local fundamentalist chapel where apparently she loves her church family. 

One of the things I think will be grating on many of the fundy set is that although the torture imposed on the Nachtigal children was extreme, the implements that they use are probably commonplace in many households: a cane and a 1 x 3 board.  After reading FJ for many years, those implements sadly don't sound vaguely out of the ordinary to me.  

I don't doubt that most people in the community will be rightly appalled by the story, but I also expect that in many churches there will be dismay that this couple crossed the line and now everybody is going to have to be careful not to leave marks when they hit their children.

[DaisyD]

Quote

What I do know, many children who are adopted from different countries come over here with MANY broken bones that were never given the chance to heal properly, either from lack of funds, lack of care or people being heartless.

Oy, where to begin. They've had those kids for at least 3 years right? "Various levels of healing" would not have been the term used for 3 year old breaks. 

I get wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt (especially when you've invested in them), but there comes a point when you should really just shut your mouth and wait for all the facts. She's really showing her ass isn't she?

[blessalessi]

Yeah.  And I see that as a definite danger of the church adoption "ministries".  People go for a 10-day visit to one orphanage in one part of the world and come back fired up by what they "know" about "orphans".

Paige Nachtigal was a leader on a weekend retreat for adoption and foster moms at at Grace Community Church in Kansas, as part of a very coordinated white saviour complex ministry that is ongoing in the church.

Regardless of whether the church looks fundie on the outside, and regardless of how many people in the church are shocked by the abuse revelations, the church is unfortunately but absolutely complicit in the abuse at some level because of it fails to put children's needs at the centre of the adoption process.  

The recommended reading list on the GCC Adoption ministry website is frightening. 

The biggest WTF for me is the book title Orphanology: 

Quote

Orphanology unveils the grassroots movement that’s engaged in a comprehensive response to serve hundreds of millions of orphans and “functionally parentless” children.

Functionally parentless??? Well yeah, that effectively describes the children of Jim and Paige Nachtigal, for the 4 years following their adoption. 

[older than allosaurs]

I do get it that children can look possibly starved and abused when they are not. One of my daughters through adoption was scary thin with a swollen belly, looking just a few steps away from Feed the Children fundraising pictures, until she hit puberty. She also was highly impulsive and had an explosive temper. Her response to schoolwork frustrations at the age of the Nachtigal boy  was to scream like a banshee, launch herself sideways out of the chair, and hit the floor. So bruises were also a distinct possibility. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that she could have been found barefoot in a neighboring field in February.

And I get it that it's a drag to have ignorant people assume you are a bad parent if you have a difficult child. (I am not assuming by any of this that the Nachtigal's kids were indeed difficult.)

But, but, BUT dammit...If the police had picked up my daughter in a field and started checking around, they would have found that she was not hit, let alone beaten. She was not punished for her issues with schoolwork or food; we just kept looking for techniques that would help and nutritious food she would eat, and we got professional help. We did not keep her away from services and isolate her from other children and families. When we got together with other parents (I saw that Paige led at least one support group event) we didn't do devotions and cutesy activities, although many parents were devout Christians. We brought in child development and adoption speakers and we put together a community reference library.

No doubt this is why this case strikes such a nerve with me. There may indeed be big challenges as you raise your children, any children. You don't have to respond to them with a couple of half-digested bible verses and a stick.

[onlyme]

19 hours ago, refugee said:

 But you see, they have more than likely been brainwashed by their homeschool leadership and mentors and HSLDA that the government is out to get their children, to take away the children of godly families (because "persecution"), that evil neighbors are always watching for an opportunity to make anonymous accusations, that social workers are lurking in the bushes, ready to knock on the door and force their way in and interview the children without the parents present so they can put false, condemning lies in the children's mouths, so they can take the children away from the godly family and put them into the worldly system where they can be properly indoctrinated with such hellish horrors as the UN Convention of the Child.

Believe me, I heard that kind of fear-mongering for *years*, and was stupid and gullible and brainwashed enough to believe it.

We were taught that all love and grace and safety resided within the xtian homeschool community, and outside that invisible circle people were nasty, corrupt, and evil, and sought only to corrupt our children so they'd be lost for eternity.

The brainwashing is real. It does not absolve the brainwashed from responsibility, but it explains some of what makes it so hard to break free. They really are not right in their minds. It's a kind of mental illness that the parents (not those born into the movement) took on voluntarily. They took it on voluntarily, but now they are well and truly trapped in it. I wonder if the brain chemistry actually changes when one is constantly bathed in fear and paranoia?

(I am not dissing those with legitimate, biologically based mental illness -- we deal with it in our immediate and extended family.)

Yes. Constant articles in the HS magazines, and even more neutral sources like Dobson, taught people to fear social workers. I was terrified of them. It was well known that they hated the way we were raising our children and they wanted Christian children out of Christian homes so they could indoctrinate them into the New World Order. (That is, expose them to early sex, turn them into mini consumers, desensitize them to sin, etc. Not like they had a formal curriculum.) This is like a bubble that interprets everything that filters through outside. 

[justwatching]

My apologies that I don't know how to quote to include the FB comment by Metrice Calderon that was referred to above by @blessalessi, but this is an excerpt from KWCH story published on Feb 17:

Quote

Police found documentation in the home from a doctor in the children's native Peru. The doctor stated the children were all very healthy prior to being adopted. The documents had no mention of broken bones or anything like that. The children also had no local medical records regarding broken bones.

The entire article can be found here:

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/Details-released-on-child-abuse-arrest-in-North-Newton/38041896

If that report is accurate, that pretty much takes out the argument that these children's injuries occurred prior to their adoption.  Therefore, Ms. Calderon's argument is a crock of crap, and I'm glad to hear she backed down later on in the comments.  Hopefully others will follow suit and see the Nachtigals for who they are.

I also found a statement from one of the contributors to their fundraising attempts:

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The Nachtigals were planning to go back to Peru. They spoke at area churches and had a GoFundme page asking for support for their ministry.

Jason Peebles, the President of World Outreach Ministries, one of the organizations the couple worked with released the following statement Friday morning:

“The Nachtigal’s were attempting to raise funds through various churches and organizations, of which we were one group. They were in the “pending” category with our organization for future support. Thankfully we can say that funds which were given for their work in Peru were never passed along to them. The plan was to commence support once they returned to Peru. In light of this situation, we have obviously withdrawn our planned support – and all donations have been returned to the donors.”

Source is here:

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/dcf-wont-say-why-it-didnt-call-police-to-n-newton-home/38053908

Hopefully others will follow suit and more statements will be forthcoming.

Finally, here is an update published yesterday.  The NN Chief of Police is hot at DCF and the adoption agency, and is even calling out Topeka for cutting funding.  Here are excerpts from an article in The Newton Kansas yesterday:

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Randy Jordan is as mad as heck, and he isn't going to take it anymore.

“I am going to be an advocate for kids and I will be very outspoken. It might ruffle feathers. But at this point in my career, I have seen too many children hurt. … We can't make this about dollars and cents,” the North Newton police chief told The Kansan. “These kids can not protect themselves.”

******

But there was another organization involved in this case that could have reported abuse — but did not. Jordan said there were supposed to be post-adoption reports.

“There are so many safety nets in this thing that failed,” Jordan said. “… You not only have DCF, but you also have post adoption reports. Those are supposed to be done every six months, and I think that is a safety net for the kids. I do not know how those were done,” Jordan said.  “It does not appear that any information was shared with DCF, it also does not appear that the person doing the post adoption reports called DCF to ask anything or check with them.”

******

“There are a lot of things that bother me about this. You have politicians that want to act flabbergasted and upset about this,” Jordan said. “They are the ones that gutted DCF how many times now, and they restructured DCF. They have just as much culpability now as DCF. Those of us that work in this system saw this coming. You can't keep cutting funds, adding more responsibility to them.”

Full article is here:

http://www.thekansan.com/news/20160223/safety-net-fails-dcf-post-adoption-reporters-did-not-contact-police-in-abuse-case/?Start=1

And another update from KWCH here:

Quote

Despite the concerning allegations of what happened inside the home, Chief Randy Jordan said it's what didn't happen beforehand that he's also tackling. He said something needs to change so this kind of thing doesn't happen to any children in the future.

"Kids are too vulnerable. I mean they can't help themselves. They depend on us to do that as adults," Jordan said. "It's motivating because I don't want it to happen to any more kids and so it's put me on the path to try to find ways to fix this."

Using this investigation as motivation, Jordan said he's now working to find out what's wrong with the system intended to check on families and keep kids safe. He said every party involved should be looking at any potential holes in policy.

Jordan said that starts with the adoption process that let the Nachtigals adopt three kids from Peru.

"There's pre adoption reports that have to be done, evaluations and then there's post adoption reports and evaluations that have to be done," Jordan said. "There's somewhere in there that there should have been some red flags and why those weren't picked up, I don't know."

The North Newton Police Department tells Eyewitness News it learned the Department for Children and Families received 12 calls regarding the home it did not report to law enforcement. DCF has told Eyewitness News that's not required, but Jordan said normally, DCF and the police have a good relationship and help each other out in concerning situations.

"We help each other. And in this case, this case fell through the cracks and we've got to figure out why that is. Overall our relationship is good and we do help each other out," he said.

But because his department did not know about this situation until it got more severe, Jordan said there should be a communication improvement or potentially a policy put in place.

"Is there a certain criteria that has to be met or should be met and then law enforcement is notified? It doesn't mean that law enforcement has to go to the home but we have to know that there is a potential issue somewhere. But those are all things that we'd like to sit down with DCF and law enforcement and let's talk about that and let's see if we can come up with an agreement of when we should be notified," he said.

Lawmakers have expressed outrage over the case as well as DCF. Jordan said those in Topeka have responsibility too.

" I read about politicians who are outraged at this case and other cases. Well you know there's some accountability there too. They're gutting DCF funding and they're restructuring DCF and there's consequences for that. And they can't just act outraged when they're cutting the funds and not allowing DCF to hire people and putting more responsibility on DCF," he said.

It's not about pointing fingers, Jordan said. Rather, he said it's about having some accountability and learning from what's happened.

He brought up an example of how the system could be improved saying, "In domestic violence cases, there's a matrix that can be used to help figure out the danger point for a victim. You know how dangerous a situation are they in. Well I'm wondering if something like that couldn't be developed from these DCF reports. Like what kind of information is in that report you know where does it fall in the matrix?"

While that wouldn't solve every issue with the system, Jordan said he's ready to be part of the discussion to figure out what can and should be done.

"These kids lives are too important to just make phone calls."

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/north-newton-police-chief-says-system-failed-abused-children/38151798

I still have not heard if GCC has made a statement.  That doesn't mean they have or haven't, just that I haven't heard.  If/when they do, I will post it here.  Shame on them if they don't.

[blessalessi]

As to the police chief, I think in essence he is spot on.  They do need a root and branch investigation to identify all the areas where these children should have been monitored and were failed by the statutory services.  Given that GCC prides itself on its adoption ministry I think they should do the same, but it looks as though they are just burying the evidence at this point as Paige's name has already disappeared from Facebook posts and event notices that were online as of yesterday.

I was surprised to read in an earlier post the statistics, that show only about 30 Peruvian children are adopted and brought to the States annually. Somewhere else I read that adoption of unrelated sibling groups is also very rare, and an exception was made for Paige and Jim Nachtigal to adopt the 15 year old girl and 11 year old boy on the same trip.  I hope that this case will cause a ruckus for the international adoption industry as whole. DR Congo drastically shut down its international adoptions amid scandal last year and if Peru has any sense it will also consider taking drastic action.

 

[blessalessi]

Additional charges have been brought against the Nachtigals: http://ksn.com/2016/02/25/new-charges-added-to-north-newton-couples-child-abuse-case/

According to this article the defence has applied for the files to be sealed?  Does this mean the hearing would be held in private, or is it just a matter of the preliminary investigation being kept out of the public eye?  What might be the justification for this?  Is it because it would be in the best interests  of the children? Or in order to give the couple a fair hearing?

[Anonymousguest]

It says the defense is asking for the files to be sealed, so I'd guess he thinks it's in his clients best interest for people not to know the details. I have NO expert opinion at all, but maybe he's still hoping their reputation will help them. If the details get out people/community/church will turn against then.

[DaisyD]

If only these types got their way and an eye for an eye was the law. Let's see how he likes it when someone breaks a board on him...