FamTeam Update

[gustava]

OK.....Am stepping out on a very thin limb here.  What is the emotional/psychological/sexual pathology in that house?

Mods:  Delete if I've stepped over the line.

[Dandruff]

6 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Wonder if there's a word to describe this mindset??

Overkill?

Rick's intentions appeared to be good when he saw Checkers on his/her back in the middle of the road.  But instead of picking up the turtle and moving it elsewhere, he decided to bring it home and exert complete responsibility and control over it.  He caged it, analyzed it, worried about it, and then blamed the poor animal for dying when it managed to escape from its prison.  Rick then wondered whether he, man in charge, should have given Checkers even less freedom.  What I didn't notice was any apparent concern or regard for Checker's instincts or right to be independent.

Sound familiar?

[gustava]

3 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Overkill?

Rick's intentions appeared to be good when he saw Checkers on his/her back in the middle of the road.  But instead of picking up the turtle and moving it elsewhere, he decided to bring it home and exert complete responsibility and control over it.  He caged it, analyzed it, worried about it, and then blamed the poor animal for dying when it managed to escape from its prison.  Rick then wondered whether he, man in charge, should have given Checkers even less freedom.  What I didn't notice was any apparent concern or regard for Checker's instincts or right to be independent.

Sound familiar?

I'd again like to say that Checkers is a Parable According to Rick.

[Dandruff]

4 minutes ago, gustava said:

I'd again like to say that Checkers is a Parable According to Rick.

I guess I read too quickly, but am glad for the sake of not-really-Checkers.

[church_of_dog]

5 hours ago, gustava said:

I'd again like to say that Checkers is a Parable According to Rick.

I'm glad to know the story isn't real.  One possible clue to that, if he wasn't such an incomprehensible person in the first place, might have been the odd language he used in the story -- almost cavalier, given the somber nature of the story:  "a sad patch of orange"?  "pancaked"?  I know these folks have way more WTFery going on than I can fathom, but still, I'm relieved that his almost-snarky language wasn't being used in a real situation.

[gustava]

7 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

I'm glad to know the story isn't real.  One possible clue to that, if he wasn't such an incomprehensible person in the first place, might have been the odd language he used in the story -- almost cavalier, given the somber nature of the story:  "a sad patch of orange"?  "pancaked"?  I know these folks have way more WTFery going on than I can fathom, but still, I'm relieved that his almost-snarky language wasn't being used in a real situation.

Folks,  I'm surmising that Checkers wasn't real.  I don't know for sure. 

[JenniferJuniper]

18 minutes ago, gustava said:

Folks,  I'm surmising that Checkers wasn't real.  I don't know for sure. 

It almost doesn't matter whether there was a real turtle or not.   The point he was trying to make is what is so scary.  And telling.

[Ungodly Grandma]

21 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Also interesting how he equates "liberalism" with allowing Checkers to be the natural creature that he was.

Logically then, this must mean that Rick equates conservatism with captivity, and that captivity is a far better thing than freedom because if you're locked up "safe at home" you'll never get run over by a bus.  Or get a chance to start thinking for yourself and God forbid turn into a Democrat or - horrors! - an atheist.

If anyone needs proof that Rick Arndt is very seriously mentally ill, the Checkers the Turtle story should put any doubts to rest. 

Ha ha wasn't Checkers the name of Nixon's pet? Good company Rick!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

On 2/24/2016 at 5:43 PM, MatthewDuggar said:

We will never know, but
apparently in his poor little turtle brain, the freedom was worth more to him
than the security of safety.

I fall behind on this thread and miss...this?!

I need some kind of notification for turtle parables because I need to hear about this stuff immediately.

Anyone else feel sad for this fictional turtle?

On 2/25/2016 at 7:00 AM, nokidsmom said:

The turtle story explains a lot.   Rick took it extremely personally that Checkers wandered away from the Arndt Safety Zone.  Good bet that the manboys have heard a lot of these type  stories and I am with @Peas n carrots that none of them want to be the first to leave.   Can you imagine the handwringing and guilt tripping?   Not just from the parents but from the siblings too.

They are probably afraid of ending up as a sad patch of orange in the road.

Do I even want to know why the dead turtle would leave an orange stain?

[nausicaa]

"Children need the firm love of clear limitations that permit them to feel like
— well, children — rather than little adults."

Yeah Rick. Except the majority of your children are not longer children, or even "little adults." They're just adults. Big ones. 

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, gustava said:

Folks,  I'm surmising that Checkers wasn't real.  I don't know for sure. 

Whoops!  I was dozing off at the screen, needing to go to bed but could not tear myself away while there were unread posts in the Arndt thread   and I can see I didn't read very carefully.

14 hours ago, gustava said:

I'd again like to say that Checkers is a Parable According to Rick.

I missed the extra capital letters and hallucinated a comma after parable, making it seem much more certain than it was!

 

 

/pedantic proofreader's lament

[gustava]

1 hour ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Ha ha wasn't Checkers the name of Nixon's pet? Good company Rick!

YES!!!  And Checkers the dog was an illegal gift!!!! 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I'm in no way implying that this family as the same type of beliefs or are dangerous - but I was thinking about we can't figure out why they stay.

That cult Heaven's Gate had 39 people so committed to their crazy beliefs that they took their own lives. Prior to that several underwent castration and they all gave up so much to live as ascetics.  People lost their sense of autonomy and even self-preservation due to the rantings of some whackado who called himself Bo Peep...imagine if your parents were your cult leaders and you never knew another way?  Indoctrination from the cradle.

And yeah - I do think whatever goes on there is way beyond raising kids within parent's belief structure - we all do that.  I do believe it was indoctrination into a family cult.  I have no ideas to how this was accomplished.

For those of us with siblings, more than one kid, or even knew families with more than one kid...how many siblings do you know who, as adults, all chose the same professions?  The same hobbies?  The same views and approach to relationships?  Same religious views?  

You'd be hard pressed to find a sibling group of two who were as in lockstep with their choices as these guys.  Even if you forget the weirdness of living at home, this alone is inexplicable.  

I just wish one of them who really would like a wife and kids of his own would have a cathartic moment at one of the weddings they cover and realize that none of those couples met by the guy opening the door to find a gift wrapped woman on their porch with a note that says, "To specific manboy:  Here you go - she's the one.  love, Jesus"

 

[MatthewDuggar]

22 hours ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

Mark definitely wanted/wants to get married.  Here is a link to several articles he wrote on the topic that used to be posted on their website:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080308084834/http://famteam.com/waiting/

 

Poor guy, 8 years later (from the 2008 article) and he's still waiting....

Maybe it's just me, but I felt exhausted after reading three paragraphs of this rambling.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, MatthewDuggar said:

Maybe it's just me, but I felt exhausted after reading three paragraphs of this rambling.  

Yeah - wow.  I have a few thoughts:

The frustration leaps off the page.  It's tangible.  Wow.

This:  

Quote

 Instead of being like a hunter with a shotgun, firing bullets in every direction -- wounding many but capturing none -- I want to wait for the one and only, and then, like a sniper, fire one well-timed and well-placed bullet.

tells you he has zero female friends to know women as people because bullet analogies...not so romantic for most of us.

Being a good kisser is one of those things that's wildly important, but hardly rocket science...

Quote

 I don't want to know how to kiss anybody but my wife.  I don't want kissing to be a transferable skill for me.  I want any expertise I will acquire in this area to be customized only for her.

He's way over thinking this.  Although first kisses are incredibly awkward and I don't know about you guys but I'm glad I didn't have to do it for the first time ever at the altar in front of our families and friends.

This would be a little insulting if the author had more emotional maturity than the average middle schooler:

Quote

One other reason I'd like to save kissing for our wedding day is because I think it will add more significance and strength to our marriage.  I want our wedding to be more than an exchange of rings and an excuse to have a party; I want it to really mean something deeper.  On that day, I want us to cross a fiery line, a line that makes big changes in us when we cross it.

Marriage makes big changes for almost everyone.  I admit to being a harlot who didn't save my first kiss for marriage and it was still a sacred thing and changed my life.  My divorce was in many ways more painful to me than the loss of my parents - to imply marriage isn't a big deal unless everyone is still in mint condition/original packaging seems to make marriage more about sex than about the joining of two lives...seems like he's the one kind of trivializing it.  

Right here - this is exactly what I thought about sex when i was in grade school and had to pretend marry Shaun Cassidy in my head before I could imagine what it would be like to kiss him...

Quote

Sadly, I think one reason marriages fall apart is because the couple "acts married" -- to put it delicately -- before they are married.  Then when they are married, they find that it's not much different. 

So...sex is only awesome the first time and after that just the same old, same old?  Yeah...no.  I don't know about anyone else but the first time with someone I loved was great because the newness and moving forward deal...but once you get comfy and trusting and start knowing the playing field it gets a whole lot better.  I think it's sad for him that he thinks sex is anticlimactic after round one...so to speak.

Quote

 I want the people to see that the altar alters us

No woman ever married a man because of his use of puns.  Just saying.

Quote

Let me put it delicately: you can't cross home plate if you refuse to even go to first base.  The best way to avoid falling into the Grand Canyon is to stay out of Arizona.

And you can't win a softball game if you never get up to bat.  And falling into the grand canyon ...worst analogy ever given the topic!

Quote

Maybe other people have more willpower than I do, but I don't think I could go to Pizza Hut and only smell the pizza.  To me, that's too close.

I stand corrected...entering a pizza hut as analogous to sex is worse.

Quote

I'm doing it also to guard my future wife's heart.  If we cave in, she is going to be devastated, too.  And even though I don't know her name yet, I already love her enough to want to never let that happen to her.
    If I love her so much now, I can only imagine what it'll be like when I actually know her.

Anyone remember the Brady Bunch episode where Greg was crushed that they didn't want him to be Johnny Bravo for him, but only because he fit the suit.  She's already a person to him, he's just looking for the woman who fits his suit.  Finding out she may have feelings and opinions might be a rude awakening for him.

This breaks my heart for all of them...

Quote

The number of days we aren't married are going to be dwarfed by the number of days we are married.

Not if you're kept safe at home they won't.

Quote

 A lover of steak will not settle for a microwaved hunk of raw meat.  He will want to slowly cook it, slowly marinate it, and season it just right.  He'll take the time to do it right, not because he is anti-steak, but because he is pro-steak!  How silly it would be for someone to say to him, "I see you're not eating microwaved steak.  What do you have against steak anyway?"  He loves and longs for steak so much that he knows it's worth it to take the time to prepare it just right.

That's it - someone needs to forbid him to use metaphors until he realizes that women are not canyons, pizza, or meat.  Also not to be shot with bullets.

Quote

 So I certainly do not mean to imply that kissing before marriage is wrong or somehow a second-rate way of doing things.

Whew - glad he told us because it sure looked like he was implying it.

I just got through the first one and left tons of mockable material unquoted.

I know I'm horrible for being mean as he doesn't know any better, but he was 25 when he wrote this.  

Look I think people should do exactly what they want to do when it comes to this stuff - including waiting for their first kiss if that's what they want...I'm not mocking abstinence or virginity at all.  I find the lack of maturity and the black and white mindset troubling and if he holds those same views now I don't think it bodes well for his future wife, should he recognize her, because his expectations about sex and making the stakes so very high on something like kissing will make for a rocky start.

Also...if either of my sons expressed the fear that if they kissed someone they wouldn't be able to refrain from having sex...we'd be having a little talk about impulse control.  But that's the point - he's so focused on sex I don't think he can imagine being able to kiss and hold back and that's...not going to make for a particularly romantic wedding night.  Sometimes it's good to let the horse run a little bit, burn a little energy so it can slow down when it matters.

And I've just proven I'm as bad at analogies as he is.  

 

[Handmaiden of Dog]

The problem with the Parable of the Turtle is that if all the turtles in the world were kept in screened in porches, there would be no little baby turtles. Do the boys never question how it is that their parents met and married and made babies and stayed married?  Someone must have left home in order for baby Arndts to be born.

[AnywhereButHere]

22 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yeah - wow.  I have a few thoughts:

The frustration leaps off the page.  It's tangible.  Wow.

This:  

tells you he has zero female friends to know women as people because bullet analogies...not so romantic for most of us.

Being a good kisser is one of those things that's wildly important, but hardly rocket science...

He's way over thinking this.  Although first kisses are incredibly awkward and I don't know about you guys but I'm glad I didn't have to do it for the first time ever at the altar in front of our families and friends.

This would be a little insulting if the author had more emotional maturity than the average middle schooler:

Marriage makes big changes for almost everyone.  I admit to being a harlot who didn't save my first kiss for marriage and it was still a sacred thing and changed my life.  My divorce was in many ways more painful to me than the loss of my parents - to imply marriage isn't a big deal unless everyone is still in mint condition/original packaging seems to make marriage more about sex than about the joining of two lives...seems like he's the one kind of trivializing it.  

Right here - this is exactly what I thought about sex when i was in grade school and had to pretend marry Shaun Cassidy in my head before I could imagine what it would be like to kiss him...

So...sex is only awesome the first time and after that just the same old, same old?  Yeah...no.  I don't know about anyone else but the first time with someone I loved was great because the newness and moving forward deal...but once you get comfy and trusting and start knowing the playing field it gets a whole lot better.  I think it's sad for him that he thinks sex is anticlimactic after round one...so to speak.

No woman ever married a man because of his use of puns.  Just saying.

And you can't win a softball game if you never get up to bat.  And falling into the grand canyon ...worst analogy ever given the topic!

I stand corrected...entering a pizza hut as analogous to sex is worse.

Anyone remember the Brady Bunch episode where Greg was crushed that they didn't want him to be Johnny Bravo for him, but only because he fit the suit.  She's already a person to him, he's just looking for the woman who fits his suit.  Finding out she may have feelings and opinions might be a rude awakening for him.

This breaks my heart for all of them...

Not if you're kept safe at home they won't.

That's it - someone needs to forbid him to use metaphors until he realizes that women are not canyons, pizza, or meat.  Also not to be shot with bullets.

Whew - glad he told us because it sure looked like he was implying it.

I just got through the first one and left tons of mockable material unquoted...

 

 

 

I just choked I was laughing so hard (at the bolded especially), which caused everyone in my little cubicle farm to pop their heads up over their pens like gophers in a field. Now how to convince them that I really do find my work incredibly funny...

[salex]

33 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yeah - wow.  I have a few thoughts:

The frustration leaps off the page.  It's tangible.  Wow.

This:  

tells you he has zero female friends to know women as people because bullet analogies...not so romantic for most of us.

Being a good kisser is one of those things that's wildly important, but hardly rocket science...

He's way over thinking this.  Although first kisses are incredibly awkward and I don't know about you guys but I'm glad I didn't have to do it for the first time ever at the altar in front of our families and friends.

This would be a little insulting if the author had more emotional maturity than the average middle schooler:

Marriage makes big changes for almost everyone.  I admit to being a harlot who didn't save my first kiss for marriage and it was still a sacred thing and changed my life.  My divorce was in many ways more painful to me than the loss of my parents - to imply marriage isn't a big deal unless everyone is still in mint condition/original packaging seems to make marriage more about sex than about the joining of two lives...seems like he's the one kind of trivializing it.  

Right here - this is exactly what I thought about sex when i was in grade school and had to pretend marry Shaun Cassidy in my head before I could imagine what it would be like to kiss him...

So...sex is only awesome the first time and after that just the same old, same old?  Yeah...no.  I don't know about anyone else but the first time with someone I loved was great because the newness and moving forward deal...but once you get comfy and trusting and start knowing the playing field it gets a whole lot better.  I think it's sad for him that he thinks sex is anticlimactic after round one...so to speak.

No woman ever married a man because of his use of puns.  Just saying.

And you can't win a softball game if you never get up to bat.  And falling into the grand canyon ...worst analogy ever given the topic!

I stand corrected...entering a pizza hut as analogous to sex is worse.

Anyone remember the Brady Bunch episode where Greg was crushed that they didn't want him to be Johnny Bravo for him, but only because he fit the suit.  She's already a person to him, he's just looking for the woman who fits his suit.  Finding out she may have feelings and opinions might be a rude awakening for him.

This breaks my heart for all of them...

Not if you're kept safe at home they won't.

That's it - someone needs to forbid him to use metaphors until he realizes that women are not canyons, pizza, or meat.  Also not to be shot with bullets.

Whew - glad he told us because it sure looked like he was implying it.

I just got through the first one and left tons of mockable material unquoted.

I know I'm horrible for being mean as he doesn't know any better, but he was 25 when he wrote this.  

Look I think people should do exactly what they want to do when it comes to this stuff - including waiting for their first kiss if that's what they want...I'm not mocking abstinence or virginity at all.  I find the lack of maturity and the black and white mindset troubling and if he holds those same views now I don't think it bodes well for his future wife, should he recognize her, because his expectations about sex and making the stakes so very high on something like kissing will make for a rocky start.

Also...if either of my sons expressed the fear that if they kissed someone they wouldn't be able to refrain from having sex...we'd be having a little talk about impulse control.  But that's the point - he's so focused on sex I don't think he can imagine being able to kiss and hold back and that's...not going to make for a particularly romantic wedding night.  Sometimes it's good to let the horse run a little bit, burn a little energy so it can slow down when it matters.

And I've just proven I'm as bad at analogies as he is.  

 

It strikes me that this is all recycled thoughts from Dad.  I expect all the boys could write the same story and maybe use the same examples because I suspect they have all heard these examples used since they were young.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, salex said:

It strikes me that this is all recycled thoughts from Dad.  I expect all the boys could write the same story and maybe use the same examples because I suspect they have all heard these examples used since they were young.

 

He said something about their not being agreement amongst the manboys and that being okay (yeah, sure Rick is okay with lack of agreement on this stuff.)  

One, now I'm curious as to who is on team kissing...but more importantly I'm sad that a bunch of grown men sat around discussing the dos and don'ts of physical affection when it's all purely academic and not scenarios that are likely to come up.  

Kind like if I were to call my sisters to discuss ways to improve our swing or the best pitching strategies when none of us are ever going to play baseball.

[gustava]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm in no way implying that this family as the same type of beliefs or are dangerous - but I was thinking about we can't figure out why they stay.

That cult Heaven's Gate had 39 people so committed to their crazy beliefs that they took their own lives. Prior to that several underwent castration and they all gave up so much to live as ascetics.  People lost their sense of autonomy and even self-preservation due to the rantings of some whackado who called himself Bo Peep...imagine if your parents were your cult leaders and you never knew another way?  Indoctrination from the cradle.

And yeah - I do think whatever goes on there is way beyond raising kids within parent's belief structure - we all do that.  I do believe it was indoctrination into a family cult.  I have no ideas to how this was accomplished.

For those of us with siblings, more than one kid, or even knew families with more than one kid...how many siblings do you know who, as adults, all chose the same professions?  The same hobbies?  The same views and approach to relationships?  Same religious views?  

You'd be hard pressed to find a sibling group of two who were as in lockstep with their choices as these guys.  Even if you forget the weirdness of living at home, this alone is inexplicable.  

I just wish one of them who really would like a wife and kids of his own would have a cathartic moment at one of the weddings they cover and realize that none of those couples met by the guy opening the door to find a gift wrapped woman on their porch with a note that says, "To specific manboy:  Here you go - she's the one.  love, Jesus"

 

Actually, I think the  comparison is apt.  Clean and shiny looking though they may appear, the Ardnts' remind me of Papa Pilgrim, who hoarded his children and did unspeakable things.  Even Stevehovah lets his sons marry and establish families.  I'm beginning to wonder about the mental health of the Arndt family.

[0 kids n not countin]

First, love the Shaun Cassidy and Johnny Bravo references.  Oh how I l"loved" Shaun back in the day, he was certainly my all time favorite teen idol, I lived for the Hardy Boys tv series and those Tiger-Beat magazines, lol.

I wish I could post a link instead of posting the imagines, but I no longer can find these on the internet except for a Spanish version.  They're from an interview in 2004 or 2005 with Mark, Rick, and Cathy, and were printed in volume 64 of the Above Rubies magazine.  They were posted on the Famteam website way back when though I can't seem to find them on the Wayback machine.

 

[JenniferJuniper]

7 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm in no way implying that this family as the same type of beliefs or are dangerous - but I was thinking about we can't figure out why they stay.

That cult Heaven's Gate had 39 people so committed to their crazy beliefs that they took their own lives. Prior to that several underwent castration and they all gave up so much to live as ascetics.  People lost their sense of autonomy and even self-preservation due to the rantings of some whackado who called himself Bo Peep...imagine if your parents were your cult leaders and you never knew another way?  Indoctrination from the cradle.

 

I've thought of Heaven's Gate more than a few times reading Dad's Diary.  I don't think we really have a clue what goes on/has gone on in that house, I only know that it's not possible to achieve what Cathy and Rick have with their kids without a serious amount of planning and very determined, sustained implementation of those plans.  

At some point, something is going to happen.  Someone is going to leave.  Or get sick.  Or have a bad accident.  None of us get through this life unscathed.  And Jesus or no Jesus, I don't think any of these people (save possibly Cathy) are emotionally equipped to deal with major upheaval.  This is why I find them - despite their basically "normal" appearance - to be the most disturbing fundie family of all those snarked upon.

[gustava]

13 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

the most disturbing fundie family of all those snarked upon.

Yes.

[MarblesMom]

On 2/26/2016 at 3:34 PM, 0 kids n not countin said:

First, love the Shaun Cassidy and Johnny Bravo references.  Oh how I l"loved" Shaun back in the day, he was certainly my all time favorite teen idol, I lived for the Hardy Boys tv series and those Tiger-Beat magazines, lol.

All of this!  And of course, Leif Garrett.  At the time.

[GoneDownTheRabbitHole]

Every now and then I loop back to the Arndt family and hope one of the manboys have gotten married. Or escaped. Whichever comes first.  

Do you think Mary-Elizabeth, now that she is close to being in her 20s, will be the one to venture out of being "safe at home"? Maybe she isn't as controlled by Cathy as her brothers...

It poses the philosophical question: Which will come first, an Arndt marrying/courting or Vine Valley's debut?