A young Jehovah's Witness mom who died from refusing blood

[apple1]

In many (most? all?) states in the USA, the hospital will go to a court to have custody temporarily removed from the parents for the duration of the medical emergency. It's given back after the transfusion.

I am a longtime healthcare professional and work in a pediatric hospital.

This is definitely true in my state, and I believe it is true across the US (obviously I only have personal experience in my own state). The docs here have the court system on "speed dial" so to speak and they will get the required court order immediately if needed. They don't allow kids to die because the parents refuse mainstream medical treatment.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I am a longtime healthcare professional and work in a pediatric hospital.

This is definitely true in my state, and I believe it is true across the US (obviously I only have personal experience in my own state). The docs here have the court system on "speed dial" so to speak and they will get the required court order immediately if needed. They don't allow kids to die because the parents refuse mainstream medical treatment.

While regular court cases can move slowly, in true emergencies like this hearings can take place immediately. I found a recent case in Toronto, for example, where the emergency hearing took place at 6 a.m. at the hospital. In that case, a fuller hearing took place 2 days later.

I thought it was interesting that the JW representatives in one case actually told the doctor that he had the authority under the law to transfuse the infant without parental consent under the health care consent law. Despite that, this case went the child protection route, and the judge agreed that it was reasonable to give the doctor leeway to transfuse as needed, rather than forcing the infant to go into a medical emergency each time before transfusing.

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj528.html

[KittenMitten]

I hemmoraghed after my last childbirth. I am actually somewhat surprised I kept my uterus given my doctor spent 1.5 hours working on me. I had already consented to emergency blood products but I made it to the next day without any and being a healthcare professional wasn't keen on the unique issues associated with blood products unless it was truly medically necessary. All it took what my doctor telling me what my H&H were and not only did I understand why my nurse kept acting surprised that I was coherent and mobile but I immediately consented to blood. I was prepared to argue that necessity was less given it was nearly 24 hours post delivery and instead all I had was, "yeah, only thing that's going to fix that is red blood cells, hook me up."

Yes I hated it. Yes I assumed part of my body's lifetime tolerability of blood products. Yes I assumed the very small risk of exposure to blood borne pathogens. But when your red blood cells drop so far you cannot properly oxygenate your body the 12 liters of IV fluids had certainly supported my circulatory system during surgery, but they weren't going to carry the life giving oxygen. I spent the first day of my baby's life hooked up getting 3 units of blood. They wanted to give me at least a 4th unit but by that point my numbers were high enough to sustain life even if I was still anemic and so I refused more.

Well, thank you for sharing. I posted on this thread earlier about refusing blood because I wasn't thinking straight. What am I saying, I was off my nut. It's a subject I do not want to visit much, but asked husband about that time yesterday, and he informed me I was also hallucinating. Eventually the nurse talked me into getting blood, which improved things dramatically. However, I was so embarrassed that I was out of my mind. Your explanation helped me realize that I probably did not have enough oxygen going to my brain, which probably made me nuts. I do feel better, thanks chaoticlife.

I am still stuck on how this young mother felt/thought. Part of what happened to me was a reaction to medicine which caused my throat to close. I said I can't breathe, then remembering thinking I was going to die. I felt this intense sadness that I would never see my son grow up and he wouldn't have a mother. Then they put the mask on my face, I had the surgery to stop the bleeding. Within a week I was a happy mom at home, albeit still anemic, tired and sore.

What did this woman think/feel? I've read that they have these JW elders swoop in to convince patient and doctor to not perform a transfusion. What did she think and feel? Now I made myself cry, going to look at kitten pictures.

[VelociRapture]

How about when it isn't their choice? I had a patient who had a GI bleed, who was JW. She originally had a "no blood" order but changed her mind and consented to the transfusion. Her well meaning family called the elders in and basically kicked us out of the room to "talk" to her. IMHO, they bullied her into refusing the transfusion she had just consented to. No one can convince me otherwise. She kept saying she didn't want to die, and the elders kept telling her 'it's doing to be okay".

Sometimes, it is the persons choice. Other times, it isn't.

Hold on. . . non-related visitors are able to kick medical professionals out of someone else's hospital room? (Completely serious question by the way) Can anyone do that or was it just because they were Elders in her religion that they were able to?

That story is horrible. Can someone explain to me why this isn't considered manslaughter or something? I know that the patient is the only one who can consent or deny treatment legally, but can't anything be done to hold someone responsible when they bully the patient into denying life-saving treatment that they originally consented to? Or is it impossible to charge them because everyone else was kicked out of the room?

[Quiverfullofit]

I use to have a very dear friend who's a jw.

I honestly hope she never has an life-threatening accident in which she'd need blood and she decides to not take it.

She's also studying to be a doctor of some sort. I thought that was her way to get out but I think she's just getting deeper into it.

[snickerz]

Yes I assumed part of my body's lifetime tolerability of blood products.

What does this mean?

[seveneightnine]

What does this mean?

I'd love to know too. "Massive transfusion protocol" was initiated on me after my last birth and I needed every last drop so no regrets either way, but this is the first I've heard that there might be a limit to how much blood one can receive over one's lifetime. I tried Google but no dice.

This story hits like a brick because I'd be dead and my kids would be motherless - no question - if it were not for those bags of blood. I'm very sad this woman felt she had to make that choice.

[apple1]

What does this mean?

I am a clinical laboratory scientist, and transfusion medicine was my specialty for a number of years. (I have moved into a different specialty area now).

I think that statement is misleading. There is not a "magic number" of transfusions that cannot be exceeded in one's lifetime. And there is a select group of patients who - due to various ongoing illnesses - have received thousands of units of blood products, and will continue to do so probably as

long as they live with their chronic illnesses. One group that immediately comes to mind is adults with chronic ITP. Today there are additional treatments for some, but for years at my place of employment we had certain ITP patients that we kept alive by total plasma exchanges a couple of times a week; this continued for months to years. There are patients with certain hemoglobinopathies that are transfused recurrently over their lifetimes. And there are certain trauma patients that go through unimaginable numbers of blood products before they are able to be stabilized.

There are possible reactions to blood products over time that make it more and more difficult to find compatible blood. The ABO and Rh antigens are only a small (and the most significant, but not the only) portion of the antigens on the surface of the red blood cell. When anyone is transfused RBCs their body is capable of making antibodies to antigens they don't produce on their own RBCs. Not everyone does this. A few (unfortunate) individuals are "responders" and after being transfused will have multiple antibodies to significant RBC antigens. When these individuals need more blood, it begins to fall into the rare donor category. (Major blood banks test for and keep records of these very precious rare donors and try to get them to donate again when they can).

Individuals can also begin to react to components of other (non-RBC) blood products.

There can be rare transmission of certain blood-borne ilnesses (this is very rare, but not impossible).

All that said - No, there is not a lifetime magic number. And yes, as with any medical treatment or intervention, there can be negatives. However - Transfusion is a wonderful tool in the medical arsenal and saves hundreds of thousands of lives. Personally, I would have no hesitance in accepting blood if needed.

[2xx1xy1JD]

One thing that bothers me about this story is that the judge and the family seemed to be under the impression that there was a realistic chance that the vitamin therapy might actually cure her (the judge refers to "overcoming the disease with dignity"). I would question if the family (and maybe the judge as well since judges are not necessarily scientific experts) was being misled by this alternative medicine doc that was apparently giving her the vitamin treatments into thinking that the vitamins were a viable treatment for her cancer, even though in fact I am pretty sure that even back then it was pretty well established among conventional doctors and scientists that you can't cure cancer with megadoses of vitamins.

Slightly OT, but there is some very early but promising research that large doses of vitamin C, delivered by intravenous instead of orally, fights cancer and reduced chemo side effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24500406

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23621620/

I'm a skeptic when it comes to a lot of alternative health claims, and I wouldn't abandon chemo to just eat oranges, but I am excited about the potential of intravenous vitamin C's role in fighting cancer. We have a friend who is family doctor with an interest in complementary medicine as well, and he used large doses of intravenous vitamin C with his daughter when she had retinablastoma (eye cancer). She's defied the predictions and is healthy today, with her eyesight.

http://omicsonline.org/high-doses-of-as ... 000268.pdf

ETA: When I say some early promising results, I'm not saying that anyone should give up conventional treatment, or that this is some magic bullet that is capable of curing everyone right now. I'm saying that it may end up playing a role in cancer treatment, and that it's an area for further research.

[seveneightnine]

I am a clinical laboratory scientist, and transfusion medicine was my specialty for a number of years. (I have moved into a different specialty area now).

I think that statement is misleading. There is not a "magic number" of transfusions that cannot be exceeded in one's lifetime. And there is a select group of patients who - due to various ongoing illnesses - have received thousands of units of blood products, and will continue to do so probably as

long as they live with their chronic illnesses. One group that immediately comes to mind is adults with chronic ITP. Today there are additional treatments for some, but for years at my place of employment we had certain ITP patients that we kept alive by total plasma exchanges a couple of times a week; this continued for months to years. There are patients with certain hemoglobinopathies that are transfused recurrently over their lifetimes. And there are certain trauma patients that go through unimaginable numbers of blood products before they are able to be stabilized.

There are possible reactions to blood products over time that make it more and more difficult to find compatible blood. The ABO and Rh antigens are only a small (and the most significant, but not the only) portion of the antigens on the surface of the red blood cell. When anyone is transfused RBCs their body is capable of making antibodies to antigens they don't produce on their own RBCs. Not everyone does this. A few (unfortunate) individuals are "responders" and after being transfused will have multiple antibodies to significant RBC antigens. When these individuals need more blood, it begins to fall into the rare donor category. (Major blood banks test for and keep records of these very precious rare donors and try to get them to donate again when they can).

Individuals can also begin to react to components of other (non-RBC) blood products.

There can be rare transmission of certain blood-borne ilnesses (this is very rare, but not impossible).

All that said - No, there is not a lifetime magic number. And yes, as with any medical treatment or intervention, there can be negatives. However - Transfusion is a wonderful tool in the medical arsenal and saves hundreds of thousands of lives. Personally, I would have no hesitance in accepting blood if needed.

Thanks for the clarification. I know a decent amount about science and that statement seemed odd to me, but I'm not in the medical field so I'm no expert.

I didn't like the idea of receiving blood transfusions at first since I felt fine and thought there was surely someone else who needed it more. Not so much.

[Terrie]

I am a longtime healthcare professional and work in a pediatric hospital.

This is definitely true in my state, and I believe it is true across the US (obviously I only have personal experience in my own state). The docs here have the court system on "speed dial" so to speak and they will get the required court order immediately if needed. They don't allow kids to die because the parents refuse mainstream medical treatment.

I know of one large country hospital that has a small court room on site for that exact reason.

[chaotic life]

Yes, I expressed it poorly. There is no set number for all people, but the more times you exposed to blood products, the more likely your body will recognize it as foreign and attack it becomes a risk. I have an insanely messed up immune system. I see no reason to expose my immune system to blood products and increase my personal risk unless it is absolutely medically necessary. Thus, once my H&H was elevated to a functional anemic level, I refused further units. However, in a medical emergency or when it was clearly medically necessary, there was NO hesitation in accepting blood products. I did not mean anyone should reject or fear blood product. I simply meant once my levels were elevated then my person risk versus benefits analysis was a different conclusion that my doctor and I refused the 4th unit she wanted me to receive.

[salex]

Years ago, when both I and the internet were younger, I was in a Christian discussion group that included a JW from Australia. He once said something along the lines that "no Christian believed in Blood Tranfusions".

He was seriously shocked when I told him that my church hosted blood drives in one of the meeting rooms, and mentioned the opportunity to donate blood in church bulletin. And that no Christian I knew was against accepting blood if needed. And linked him to "proof" of same.

I truly believe he had always been taught it was an unquestioned Christian belief.

[feministxtian]

Years ago, when both I and the internet were younger, I was in a Christian discussion group that included a JW from Australia. He once said something along the lines that "no Christian believed in Blood Tranfusions".

He was seriously shocked when I told him that my church hosted blood drives in one of the meeting rooms, and mentioned the opportunity to donate blood in church bulletin. And that no Christian I knew was against accepting blood if needed. And linked him to "proof" of same.

I truly believe he had always been taught it was an unquestioned Christian belief.

JWs think of themselves as the ONLY true "Christians" because they have "the truth". They often refer to their religion as "the truth". That's why the guy said what he said.

[Coldwinterskies]

Years ago, when both I and the internet were younger, I was in a Christian discussion group that included a JW from Australia. He once said something along the lines that "no Christian believed in Blood Tranfusions".

He was seriously shocked when I told him that my church hosted blood drives in one of the meeting rooms, and mentioned the opportunity to donate blood in church bulletin. And that no Christian I knew was against accepting blood if needed. And linked him to "proof" of same.

I truly believe he had always been taught it was an unquestioned Christian belief.

If he was raised JW, chances are that you were one of the first non-JW people that he had actually had a chance to talk to about such things. I can definitely believe that he had never been taught what non-JW Christians actually believe and it came as a shock when he found out.

The JWs are taught that it is dangerous to associate with "worldly people" (those of us who are non-JWs, including other Christians) because we are being misled by satan.

The vast majority of the time that they spend going door to door, people don't actually want to talk to them, so they just live in a bubble where they only socialize with JWs and reinforce each other's beliefs in these types of crazy things.

[eri]

JWs refuse blood transfusions, but eat (blood-filled) meat. I'm no philosophy PhD but that sounds like a contradiction if I ever heard one.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

JWs refuse blood transfusions, but eat (blood-filled) meat. I'm no philosophy PhD but that sounds like a contradiction if I ever heard one.

Found this fun site

defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/01/do-jehovahs-witnesses-eat-red-meat.html?m=1

[2xx1xy1JD]

Do JWs eat regular meat, or do they take any extra steps to remove blood?

I know that kosher meat is salted to draw out blood, which is then rinsed away.

[shedemei]

This thread made me curious about the JW's beliefs regarding the eucharist and transubstantiation. A quick search revealed that they do not believe that the bread and wine literally becomes Jesus's body and blood, and that these are only symbols. It would have been interesting otherwise, to say the least.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

[Shirley Blest]

Do JWs eat regular meat, or do they take any extra steps to remove blood?

I know that kosher meat is salted to draw out blood, which is then rinsed away.

I've known JW's that eat their steaks rare...yeah don't ask!

[Shirley Blest]

And I am going to throw out here that I've heard of JW's not fighting too hard on the blood issue with their kids. Think about it...they get the courts to override their parental rights...they don't have to break any rules and their kid gets a transfusion...win win!

[sunnyfunnyfarm]

And I am going to throw out here that I've heard of JW's not fighting too hard on the blood issue with their kids. Think about it...they get the courts to override their parental rights...they don't have to break any rules and their kid gets a transfusion...win win!

I work on an (adult) hospital unit that transfuses pretty frequently. It is not unheard of for a JW patient who needs a transfusion to request that it be done overnight after visiting hours are done.