The Double Life of Hasidic Atheists

[Rachel333]

http://aeon.co/magazine/culture/the-dou ... -atheists/

This article was absolutely fascinating to me. It's no wonder not many people leave when

A person leaving the community puts a blight on their entire family, stigmatising parents, siblings, children, and even cousins, limiting their ability to marry into ‘good’ families with no such stain.

Christian fundies often have a hard time leaving too, but they don't usually face this kind of intense social pressure. It really puts things into perspective for me.

[whoviana]

"It’s not all bad. Solomon, who lost his faith on the D train, says there’s a lot of good in the Orthodox community to ameliorate the psychological toll of living a double life, such as ‘the focus on family, the fact that I’m probably not going to have to worry that my daughter’s getting pregnant or stoned at 16. There’s a lot of good, even if none of it’s true. I think it’s a nice life.’

Lose the religion - keep the patriarchal mindset. You deserve the burdens of your double life. Your kids don't.

[Cleopatra7]

I have read about Orthoprax Jews before, those Jews that lead orthodox and even ultra-Orthodox lives and do all of the prayers and rituals associated with the religion, but don't actually believe. Given the limited education that boys receive in the ultra-Orthodox world, I would think that many of them would find it easier to stay religious and doubt rather than have to start over from scratch in the secular world.

[Arete]

I have read about Orthoprax Jews before, those Jews that lead orthodox and even ultra-Orthodox lives and do all of the prayers and rituals associated with the religion, but don't actually believe. Given the limited education that boys receive in the ultra-Orthodox world, I would think that many of them would fd it easier to stay religious and doubt rather than have to start over from scratch in the secular world.

This exactly. Not only is there education extremely limited, so is there exposure and command of English. And there are life altering consequences for the siblings that do not leave.

[Idolatry]

This was a dumb article. This is how every fundamentalist feels who is too chickenshit to leave.

The worst part is that these tools still want their children indoctrinated and married off young. Great parenting there.

[Cleopatra7]

This was a dumb article. This is how every fundamentalist feels who is too chickenshit to leave.

The worst part is that these tools still want their children indoctrinated and married off young. Great parenting there.

Unlike the Christian fundie we usually snark about, where each family is essentially a bunker unto themselves, Hasidic Jews lead a very community oriented life that is very appealing to a lot of people. This robust community life is part of what makes it difficult to leave, because you're not just leaving your nuclear family, but an extended community. While Christian fundies seem content to just airbrush an errant child out of the picture, a child that goes "off the derech" in a Hasidic family reflects badly on everyone else in the family, which can make it difficult for other siblings to get married or function as members in good standing of the community. Also, Yiddish is the primary language that is spoken in many Hasidic communities, so if one decides to leave, you pretty much have to enroll in an English as a Second Language class just so you can learn to communicate with people outside of the sect.

I think that what motivates Hasidic atheists to finally leave their communities for good is more than just not believing in god, as is the case with Christian fundamentalists, but questioning whether the entire lifestyle and its demands are legitimate. For example, if you think that it's wrong not to teach boys secular subjects in school or that the modesty demands for girls are ridiculous and dehumanizing, that will give you more of a reason to leave a Hasidic community and start a new life in the secular world than simply not believing in god but enjoying the trapping of ultra-Orthodoxy.

[Soulhuntress]

The self-policing mechanism kicked in most strongly through the matchmaking apparatus, the place where status is determined in these communities. A person leaving the community puts a blight on their entire family, stigmatising parents, siblings, children, and even cousins, limiting their ability to marry into ‘good’ families with no such stain.

And becoming a less religious Jew is as bad or worse than being an atheist or Pagan or Christian or Muslim in this scenario. Conform or the family is hosed is powerful.

[Howl]

I cannot even fathom the pressures are on young women and women in general in this situation. I don't see much possibility of any avenue of escape for women, unless another sibling or relative has left and can create a sanctuary.

[Soulhuntress]

I cannot even fathom the pressures are on young women and women in general in this situation. I don't see much possibility of any avenue of escape for women, unless another sibling or relative has left and can create a sanctuary.

Both genders really are stuck. There are groups like Footsteps http://footstepsorg.org/and YAFFED http://yaffed.org/ who are trying to help the ones who escape

[Arete]

The women actually get a much better education than the men, and in fact, women are often the breadwinners in these families while the husbands study Torah and Gemara full time. Financially they have a much better chance of being able to survive in the outside world. But in addition to being breadwinners, they have large families they must tend, so it's not like its easy for a woman who has upwards of 4 children and works full time to make a break for it.

[Idolatry]

Unlike the Christian fundie we usually snark about, where each family is essentially a bunker unto themselves, Hasidic Jews lead a very community oriented life that is very appealing to a lot of people. This robust community life is part of what makes it difficult to leave, because you're not just leaving your nuclear family, but an extended community. While Christian fundies seem content to just airbrush an errant child out of the picture, a child that goes "off the derech" in a Hasidic family reflects badly on everyone else in the family, which can make it difficult for other siblings to get married or function as members in good standing of the community. Also, Yiddish is the primary language that is spoken in many Hasidic communities, so if one decides to leave, you pretty much have to enroll in an English as a Second Language class just so you can learn to communicate with people outside of the sect.

I think that what motivates Hasidic atheists to finally leave their communities for good is more than just not believing in god, as is the case with Christian fundamentalists, but questioning whether the entire lifestyle and its demands are legitimate. For example, if you think that it's wrong not to teach boys secular subjects in school or that the modesty demands for girls are ridiculous and dehumanizing, that will give you more of a reason to leave a Hasidic community and start a new life in the secular world than simply not believing in god but enjoying the trapping of ultra-Orthodoxy.

You think fundamentalist Mormons or Baptists or Muslims or the Amish don't shun former members? Or isolate their members with crappy educations? Or limit work and socialization making you completely dependent on your community?

It's hard to leave a lot of fundamentalist religions. There are a lot of very brave people who have done it and helped others do it. So, yea, we know what we are talking about.

I know how hard it is, but these kind of chickenshit people are the absolute worst in my view. Those who both know it is wrong AND still want to subject their children to it? And then bitch about how hard it is for them? That just makes them cowards, and I'm not impressed.

[19 cats and counting]

You think fundamentalist Mormons or Baptists or Muslims or the Amish don't shun former members? Or isolate their members with crappy educations? Or limit work and socialization making you completely dependent on your community?

It's hard to leave a lot of fundamentalist religions. There are a lot of very brave people who have done it and helped others do it. So, yea, we know what we are talking about.

I know how hard it is, but these kind of chickenshit people are the absolute worst in my view. Those who both know it is wrong AND still want to subject their children to it? And then bitch about how hard it is for them? That just makes them cowards, and I'm not impressed.

I honestly wonder how much a kid leaving impacts a fundie Christian's family. For example, 3 Keller kids left the lifestyle and they still had daughters that married a child of the most famous family in their circle (Anna) and Bill Gothard's right hand man (and most likely his successor) (Priscilla).

In other fundie cultures, would the family of a child that leaves be able to marry off another child to royalty?

[patsymae]

I also was thinking about the Amish as I read this--I think it's much harder to leave when it's not just a religion, but a culture--not just what you believe, but who you are--especially when it runs back hundreds of years. Especially when you have a different first language, little secular education, no social cues on how to deal with the outside world, and leaving has repercussions for your family--for example, looked down on for not properly "educating" the children, or lose the chance of your siblings marrying into the more respected families, etc.

I think it's great when people who want to make the break do it, but I can certainly understand why someone wouldn't.

[Dandruff]

This was a dumb article. This is how every fundamentalist feels who is too chickenshit to leave.

The worst part is that these tools still want their children indoctrinated and married off young. Great parenting there.

Agree that this was a dumb article. It seems very narrow and somewhat biased to me - examining a very small subset of the ultra-religious communities who have lost all faith and make (what they feel are) practical decisions to remain in the culture, while making accusations against the same culture. I know some very religious Jews, though I am not one myself. I believe that many have some degree of doubt but are able to accommodate it by assuming either that they haven't learned enough or that the Lord works in mysterious ways. There is a lot of debate that has gone on in Judaism over interpretation of points in the Bible. Rabbis have written many "opinion" pieces which are often in disagreement with the opinions of others. Most people can read multiple opinions - secular or not - believe one or another or stay on the fence, and not become athiests because of a lack of total consistency (which I see as extremism on the other end). I'm not making a judgement here on what is and isn't true about religion; I'm saying that those who were raised ultra-religious do seem to see the world using a certain kind of lens, and that living in insular communities both encourages the faith and allows safe practice of it...which is reasonable considering the history of anti-semitism in the world. There are going to be some people who lose faith while being afraid to leave the enclave. So what?

[EmiGirl]

Just an upfront disclaimer: I know that this is on a MUCH lesser scale but is still somewhat comparable.

I go to a conservative SBC church. I've attended the same one since I was a month old. By no means do I agree with everything that my church, my pastor, or the SBC believes, but I continue going there because it's home. I wouldn't be shunned by anyone or have any repercussions financially. However most of my family goes there, my husband is a deacon, the people in the church are a second family to me and have helped to get me through a lot of hard times. So yes, it would be hard for me (even if i completely lost my faith) leave because of the sense of community that I find there.

[Rachel333]

Most people can read multiple opinions - secular or not - believe one or another or stay on the fence, and not become athiests because of a lack of total consistency (which I see as extremism on the other end).

Wait, it is extremism to think there is no god? Really??

There are going to be some people who lose faith while being afraid to leave the enclave. So what?

That seems remarkably callous to me. They are a tiny percentage of the world's population and even in their own faith group? So what? Their lives are still important.

Now, I do agree that I don't like how they're keeping their kids in it and marrying them off young just like what was done to them.

[Idolatry]

It's crap education in the name of religion that makes me the most angry. If you guys are right, and these schools really teach no useful skills, or even English, then how could anyone still want your kids to be part of this? Especially if you believe the religious part is crap. Just for funsies, you want your kids to have no opportunities and be trapped just like you?

Every single day I'm grateful that my parents didn't have the resources to send us all to the fundie private "school."

[nelliebelle1197]

I also was thinking about the Amish as I read this--I think it's much harder to leave when it's not just a religion, but a culture--not just what you believe, but who you are--especially when it runs back hundreds of years. Especially when you have a different first language, little secular education, no social cues on how to deal with the outside world, and leaving has repercussions for your family--for example, looked down on for not properly "educating" the children, or lose the chance of your siblings marrying into the more respected families, etc.

I think it's great when people who want to make the break do it, but I can certainly understand why someone wouldn't.

That is a great analogy and the point about culture is KEY. This is not just a religion, it is a way of life.

[Dandruff]

Wait, it is extremism to think there is no god? Really??

That seems remarkably callous to me. They are a tiny percentage of the world's population and even in their own faith group? So what? Their lives are still important.

Now, I do agree that I don't like how they're keeping their kids in it and marrying them off young just like what was done to them.

To clarify: I don't think it's extremism, at all, to be an athiest. Or to realize, over time and review, that one's beliefs don't seem to hold water. What seems extreme to me is someone who was a hyper-believer doing a total and sudden 180 upon encountering some contradictions in a faith-related context. I'm also not minimizing the value of people who lose faith but decide to stay within the enclave. I'm accepting their staying as a somewhat reasonable compromise within a dangerous world. So what if they decide to stay? It's their choice, even if I don't like the apparent hypocrisies.

[patsymae]

Just an upfront disclaimer: I know that this is on a MUCH lesser scale but is still somewhat comparable.

I go to a conservative SBC church. I've attended the same one since I was a month old. By no means do I agree with everything that my church, my pastor, or the SBC believes, but I continue going there because it's home. I wouldn't be shunned by anyone or have any repercussions financially. However most of my family goes there, my husband is a deacon, the people in the church are a second family to me and have helped to get me through a lot of hard times. So yes, it would be hard for me (even if i completely lost my faith) leave because of the sense of community that I find there.

It is on a much lesser scale, but as a "cultural" (some would call it "lapsed") Catholic I can agree. Back in the day, there was some forms of "shunning" --for example, Catholic families not supposed to go to the wedding if you married out of the church--but that has for the most part eased up, and many people who aren't enamored of the Church as an institution or don't subscribe to the articles of faith still value the community and the culture. As the saying goes, "The Pope is a long way from Brooklyn."

[Rachel333]

To clarify: I don't think it's extremism, at all, to be an athiest. Or to realize, over time and review, that one's beliefs don't seem to hold water. What seems extreme to me is someone who was a hyper-believer doing a total and sudden 180 upon encountering some contradictions in a faith-related context. I'm also not minimizing the value of people who lose faith but decide to stay within the enclave. I'm accepting their staying as a somewhat reasonable compromise within a dangerous world. So what if they decide to stay? It's their choice, even if I don't like the apparent hypocrisies.

Okay, I see what you mean now, and I totally agree with your last few sentences.

As for the extremeness of the 180, I think that can be pretty common with hyper-believers like that who lose faith. It's that all or nothing mindset.

[August]

I knew it. No one could ever really believe that bullshit.

[Idolatry]

And WTF is this: "custody is often given to the more religious parent." How could you type that out and not feel like a complete moron? Great journalism there.

[Rachel333]

And WTF is this: "custody is often given to the more religious parent." How could you type that out and not feel like a complete moron? Great journalism there.

That's a fairly well documented phenomenon among ex-Chasids. A few examples:

http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2012/ ... women.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/formerly-or ... 1407810872

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-po ... en-parents

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new-y ... -community

[Idolatry]

That's a fairly well documented phenomenon among ex-Chasids. A few examples:

http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2012/ ... women.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/formerly-or ... 1407810872

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-po ... en-parents

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new-y ... -community

Just from your first article, two women who left kept their kids, and one is still fighting in family court.