AP Classes "Unpatriotic"

[louisa05]

That's how it always was at my school in the 90s. You'd think the teachers could have communicated a little so we could have progressed past the 1940s at some point.

As someone who taught American history for ten years, I have to defend the teachers a bit. It is likely a problem with the curriculum they are given and by the 90s, in most places that included some kind of mandated standards from the state or other entity. In my state, at the time I was teaching, things like Andrew Jackson and the Bank Wars were very important while Korea, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movements and that entire era were basically an optional sub-point of a sub-point. So even if you try to get to the "end" so to speak and teach more recent history, you end up bogged down in the (frankly, boring) middle that you are absolutely required to cover. (And the things that get you behind are beyond your control--kids pulled from class for field trips, sports, testing, snow days, etc...) Most history teachers I have known (and I attended four national conferences in that ten years so I met many from around the country) are very frustrated by this but none of us had the power to change it.

Things are becoming worse now as Common Core does not include social sciences and there is no testing for social sciences. One district I sub in has eliminated high school world history. They assume the basic curriculum standards can be covered by the end of 8th grade and dropping it leaves more time for students to get credits in areas considered more important.

[FloraKitty35]

AP History isn't unpatriotic it just tends to have more critical thinking than the basics introduced in other classes. If you believe in 'Merica, God and Guns, you might not like your kids hearing that the Vietnam War was a massive failure or that the beloved Ronald Regan sold arms to Iran, effectively setting up the current Middle East situation.

My kids don't get Columbus Day off, unless it falls during the regular October break. I don't get the day off from work either.

You stated what AP History is in MD.

[keen23]

I'm trying to remember history classes way back in high school. Growing up in Massachusetts, I feel that we spent a LOT of time on Pilgrims to Revolutionary War history. Maybe 2 years? 7th and 9th grade? At one point, I could list all of the major battles of the Revolutionary War. I made a paper mache model of Ft Ticonderoga. 8th grade was "World History" the only time that we touched on non Euro-centric history- Russia, China/Japan and Africa (yes, the continent, not individual countries) basically. I don't think that South America, Mexico or Canada were ever really taught in any capacity. 10th grade was evolution of Hominids up to Columbus- so huge time jumps, like Cave Paintings one day, the step pyramids of Egypt the next- yes, the world is more than 8000 years old! 11th grade was Post Revolutionary War to WWI and Prohibition (I remember I wrote my final paper on Prohibition being the dumbest thing that America had ever done). 12th grade was Great Depression to Regan. And an entire semester on the Kennedys. Because Massachusetts. We went to the State House and met Ted Kennedy. One of the other Kennedy people came in and gave a lecture to the class.

The War of 1812 was taught as a victory for the US- the second revolutionary war, where the US "proved" their military might against the British Empire (who were actually fighting two wars at the time, splitting their forces). It jump started the US Navy, gave us Florida (yay?) and gave Canada to the British Empire.

Vietnam War was taught as a mistake. We were taught that we entered into the war in an ill thought out attempt to stop communism. We failed to stop communism in Cuba, so in order to "stop the tide of communism" in the Pacific theater, we entered Vietnam. Because we were unwilling to go nuclear, the war was doomed.

[sparkles]

It is a shame if Vietnam is given short shrift. I was old enough to participate in the various "Moratoriums" against the war. It was a brilliant example of the people making their voice heard. These protests went on week after week and involved millions of people all over the nation. I don't think we will see anything like it again, now that there is social media. Yes, there were some trouble-makers in the crowds but basically they were young people who, facing a draft, did not want US involvement in something that did not involve an attack on our country. (they did not buy the Domino Theory that supposedly justified the war) Maybe if the draft existed today we would see more protests against "boots on the ground".

AP history classes were limited to juniors and seniors so my daughter took an American history honors class in her freshman year. When we went for open school night to meet the teachers and discuss curriculum, I remember how shocked I was when the teacher said they spent a day–a DAY–on Vietnam. I'm pretty sure they didn't whitewash it since I'm sure Junior Sparkles would have told us. It was something we discussed at home, since Vietnam was ongoing while we were in school–Mr. Sparkles was #18 in the last lottery (he had TB as a baby and was deemed medically unfit)–and she knew the score.

Not sure what they did in AP American or Euro but since we live in a fairly liberal area*, I don't think they whitewashed anything there either.

*We did a have a bit of a conservative push for the school board–naturally, they were people who didn't have their kids in the public school system but they wanted to control what went on anyway–but all they managed to do was kill the school journalism program because they wouldn't allow anything other than puff pieces about the school and reduce the drama club to presenting "The Secret Garden" because they deemed everything else (including "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "Guys and Dolls") too controversial. Thankfully, they didn't last long.

[Maggie Mae]

Our official "history" classes were kind of all over the place. In Jr High, it was mostly the whim of the teacher, and I don't remember an actual book. We did a LOT of greek/roman mythology and history, and then Russian Revolution, and civil war. The Civil War stuff was basically an excuse for him to take us to a reenactment and try to recruit us for his hobby, I think. He was a pretty good teacher though - we wrote our own plays and performed them, we did lots of projects and read texts from whatever we were learning about, watched movies and created costumes and did lots of hands on projects and field trips. Then in high school, I think freshmen year was US History, and then World History. US History was SO BORING OMG. We read the text book and took tests and we didn't make it to 1940. World History was my senior year, (and one of six classes I took at a public high school) and it was so easy it was pathetic. It was mostly European history, and it involved tracing maps from a textbook written for students who were probably in 6th grade. However, my school was pretty good about teaching history in other classes. Like we learned a little bit about where math came from in math class, and most of our literature classes were also about historical context and included a few questions on the tests about things. And I think my sophomore history teacher did US history too, because I remember him teaching us about the Donner Party and showing us a lot of documentaries (Probably whatever he happened to watch and decided we should learn about). We rarely did things like "learn this list of names and dates" or "how did x event cause y event" but we did learn a lot about random events, when they occurred, and what horrible atrocities people are capable of.

[GeoBQn]

As someone who taught American history for ten years, I have to defend the teachers a bit. It is likely a problem with the curriculum they are given and by the 90s, in most places that included some kind of mandated standards from the state or other entity. In my state, at the time I was teaching, things like Andrew Jackson and the Bank Wars were very important while Korea, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movements and that entire era were basically an optional sub-point of a sub-point. So even if you try to get to the "end" so to speak and teach more recent history, you end up bogged down in the (frankly, boring) middle that you are absolutely required to cover. (And the things that get you behind are beyond your control--kids pulled from class for field trips, sports, testing, snow days, etc...) Most history teachers I have known (and I attended four national conferences in that ten years so I met many from around the country) are very frustrated by this but none of us had the power to change it.

Things are becoming worse now as Common Core does not include social sciences and there is no testing for social sciences. One district I sub in has eliminated high school world history. They assume the basic curriculum standards can be covered by the end of 8th grade and dropping it leaves more time for students to get credits in areas considered more important.

Those are all good points. When my dad first started teaching at the school he was at until retirement, the schedule included a week at the end of the school year where the history, language arts, and other teachers would collaborate on an interdisciplinary history unit. The year Titanic came out, they devoted that week to learning about the Titanic. By the time my dad retired, there were more requirements in a lot of areas. That fun week-long unit was eliminated, and it was a struggle not to run out of time at the end.

[LittleOleMe]

AP is Advanced Placement. They are high school courses that are taught at a 1st year university level. At the end of the year (May) the kids take the nationally-given AP tests and depending on their score and on what university they go to, they can receive college credit or at least place out of the 1st year courses. These classes are more rigorous than the general high school curriculum and students who take them are seen as more academic (it gives you an 'up' in selective college admissions). Not every high school offers them, though.

When I was in high school, you also got a bump on your GPA. An A in an AP course gave you an extra .25 and a B was an extra .2 as well. Of course that really screws up class placement for the kids who get straight As and don't take AP classes. I think our Valedictorian had a 5.25? It was crazy.

[LittleOleMe]

Common Core is the devil and is the top reason why I keep my kids out of public schools. There, I said it. I just didn't have the balls to be the first one. Thank you Louisa05

What I don't understand, is why anyone would even take AP classes. I took a bunch in high school and when I got to college I learned about CLEP exams. And I ended up taking some of those so I could test out of - and earn credits for - the stupid classes I just wasn't interested in taking. CLEP exams are easier and cheaper and more widely accepted. Plus, after you take three of them, colleges don't even care about SAT or ACT scores. I wish I had known that in high school. I wouldn't have been nearly as stressed out and I wouldn't have spent nearly as much money on tests.

ETA: as for why I took CLEP exams in college, there just wasn't enough time to take everything in high school. Plus my school didn't offer absolutely every AP class there is, although we did offer more than anyone else in the area and we were one of the smaller schools.

[LittleOleMe]

Our official "history" classes were kind of all over the place. In Jr High, it was mostly the whim of the teacher, and I don't remember an actual book. We did a LOT of greek/roman mythology and history, and then Russian Revolution, and civil war. The Civil War stuff was basically an excuse for him to take us to a reenactment and try to recruit us for his hobby, I think. He was a pretty good teacher though - we wrote our own plays and performed them, we did lots of projects and read texts from whatever we were learning about, watched movies and created costumes and did lots of hands on projects and field trips. Then in high school, I think freshmen year was US History, and then World History. US History was SO BORING OMG. We read the text book and took tests and we didn't make it to 1940. World History was my senior year, (and one of six classes I took at a public high school) and it was so easy it was pathetic. It was mostly European history, and it involved tracing maps from a textbook written for students who were probably in 6th grade. However, my school was pretty good about teaching history in other classes. Like we learned a little bit about where math came from in math class, and most of our literature classes were also about historical context and included a few questions on the tests about things. And I think my sophomore history teacher did US history too, because I remember him teaching us about the Donner Party and showing us a lot of documentaries (Probably whatever he happened to watch and decided we should learn about). We rarely did things like "learn this list of names and dates" or "how did x event cause y event" but we did learn a lot about random events, when they occurred, and what horrible atrocities people are capable of.

I had a fantastic history teacher in high school who did this (and one in college as well). My high school history teacher had the class on the middle east. (This was only a few years past "be very afraid day") When something would happen, we would spend an entire week just sitting in class and discussing the current events. Then after a week or so, he would ask how it pertained to what we were learning. He had a wonderful ability to take the current events and show us exactly how they were influenced by past events and tie everything back to what we were learning. He was amazing. Of course, I'm sure these stupid people would hate him bc he didn't hold back either. If the US did something fucked up, he made sure we knew about it. He handed out the report about bin laden that was issued in Aug 01 that Bushy-boy ignored. He explained how the US and the UK and France carved up the middle east and promised the same pieces of land to fifteen different people and then just made up countries out of random cities that were made up different types of muslims and why it was doomed to fail. And he taught the differences between Shi'ite and Sunni. We even read passages from the Koran. He had a newspaper delivered everyday in Hebrew bc he could read it. He told us stories about when he lived there. It was absolutely astounding and I loved that class more than anything. Bc he was real and he didn't sugar coat anything. That's what teachers should be doing. Not teaching to tests and making sure certain things are taught in exact certain ways. The truth needs to be told. History is written by the winners and no one remembers who got second place, but that doesn't mean we should just ignore the others and forget they every existed and not learn about them. It's okay to learn that the US fucked up. It's okay to learn that Hitler actually did some good things for Germany before he went bat shit crazy and started rounding up all the jews and political dissidences and the Roma. It's okay to learn that there were black people in Africa who helped the Europeans trap and capture other Africans to take to the new world as slaves. Not to sound cliched, but every cloud has a silver lining and it's about time we stop pretending they don't.

[Cheetah]

Common Core is the devil and is the top reason why I keep my kids out of public schools. There, I said it. I just didn't have the balls to be the first one. Thank you Louisa05

What I don't understand, is why anyone would even take AP classes. I took a bunch in high school and when I got to college I learned about CLEP exams. And I ended up taking some of those so I could test out of - and earn credits for - the stupid classes I just wasn't interested in taking. CLEP exams are easier and cheaper and more widely accepted. Plus, after you take three of them, colleges don't even care about SAT or ACT scores. I wish I had known that in high school. I wouldn't have been nearly as stressed out and I wouldn't have spent nearly as much money on tests.

ETA: as for why I took CLEP exams in college, there just wasn't enough time to take everything in high school. Plus my school didn't offer absolutely every AP class there is, although we did offer more than anyone else in the area and we were one of the smaller schools.

I don't think CLEP is more widely accepted than AP. I could be wrong, but I had a quick look at this about a month ago and it seemed (from like 10 minutes on google) that a lot of the more-selective schools don't take CLEP credits (although a lot also only take AP for placement and not credit).

[Cheetah]

I don't think CLEP is more widely accepted than AP. I could be wrong, but I had a quick look at this about a month ago and it seemed (from like 10 minutes on google) that a lot of the more-selective schools don't take CLEP credits (although a lot also only take AP for placement and not credit).

Also, if you are trying to get into a more selective college and you are coming from a high school that offers AP classes, you need to show that you have taken a rigorous course load. Not that you have to take every AP your school offers, but at least some of them. (BTW I have a high school senior going through admissions right now. She's taken 5 AP tests so far and 3 more AP classes this year).

[OddlyAmused]

Also, if you are trying to get into a more selective college and you are coming from a high school that offers AP classes, you need to show that you have taken a rigorous course load. Not that you have to take every AP your school offers, but at least some of them. (BTW I have a high school senior going through admissions right now. She's taken 5 AP tests so far and 3 more AP classes this year).

Yep, this. In the area in which I grew up, if you wanted to get into the top 2-3 state schools and get scholarships to some of the others, you pretty much had to be in at least a few AP classes. That was probably less true in other parts of the state, but where I grew up (Northern Virginia), pretty much all of the people who were considered "competitive" for those schools had AP credit.

Also, the AP classes at my school provided a challenge where the non-AP classes didn't. That was huge for a lot of the people I knew. And my county paid for the exams, so anyone in the class could take them.

[LittleOleMe]

Also, if you are trying to get into a more selective college and you are coming from a high school that offers AP classes, you need to show that you have taken a rigorous course load. Not that you have to take every AP your school offers, but at least some of them. (BTW I have a high school senior going through admissions right now. She's taken 5 AP tests so far and 3 more AP classes this year).

I think it depends on the types of schools you're looking to attend. For me and most people I knew, it would have been fine to take CLEP exams. And since I'm still intending to home school my kids, CLEP will work just fine for them. Of course I would prefer they do dual enrollment and take actual college classes just because it would give them that college feel experience. It depends on the situation. And it also could have changed from when I was in high school/college.

However, I do know that IVY league schools will not accept AP for credit. They probably do for placement, like you mentioned, but I remembered some of my classmates being annoyed with that.

Congrats to your daughter for taking and handling all those AP classes. I'm pretty certain the most I took in one year was three and that was enough for me.

[Mellanya]

I just don't understand the mindset of "negative is unpatriotic". Why is that so? It's kinda like "obey your parents" - disagreement with something is a lack of obedience. Just because you critize someone's actions doesn't mean you'll like him/her less. Why is it so important to point out the positive and keep the negative somewhere tucked away? (serious question - I just can't figure out the logic)

[morri]

So does it mean that only "university "level classes teach critical thinking involving history? I have heard from students who took an exchange year in an American school that the German curriculum in years 11 to 13 is like a university or college first year course. We used to have distinctions between courses in year 11 where you could choose 2 classes to be "leistungskurse" lit "performance class" basically advanced classes which were 5 periods a week instead of only 2. (English for example, in y 12 we had The American Dream as topic for the year , which included analyzing speeches from politicians, the history of the US and the American dream, as well as reading the Great Gatsby in class and discussing and analyzing the themes in that novel.) (Other topics we had were Ethnic minorities in Australia and elsewhere in the world, The Northern Ireland conflict (rolling up the history of Ireland from 11th century to today .We read Macbeth in class. We had a topic I think in year 11 ) On Discussion , presentation and perception of media(discussion of newspaper formats, Tv(including discussion and analysing "truman show" ).

[Aggie2145]

I think it depends on the types of schools you're looking to attend. For me and most people I knew, it would have been fine to take CLEP exams. And since I'm still intending to home school my kids, CLEP will work just fine for them. Of course I would prefer they do dual enrollment and take actual college classes just because it would give them that college feel experience. It depends on the situation. And it also could have changed from when I was in high school/college.

However, I do know that IVY league schools will not accept AP for credit. They probably do for placement, like you mentioned, but I remembered some of my classmates being annoyed with that.

Congrats to your daughter for taking and handling all those AP classes. I'm pretty certain the most I took in one year was three and that was enough for me.

Most of the top schools in my state did not accept AP for credit, they accepted it for placement in the next level class (ie a 4 on the AP Biology exam meant you began with BIO 102 as a freshman.) My high school opted out of true AP classes and offered instead dual enrollment classes taught by professors from the local university. I much preferred the dual enrollment system as we were treated like college students and our books were incredibly up to date - as in history books published mere months prior to the start of the course. Even though we were not taught a standard AP curriculum, we had the opportunity to take the AP exam, but few if any of my classmates chose to do so.

I elected out of any CLEP tests as I wanted to bank A's on those courses to increase my GPA. These grades along with my Dual Enrollment transfer grades helped my admission to graduate school tremendously. AP tests would have been a mere after thought by that point.

[morri]

Kids here that are smart/ organised enough are offered to take on university courses at university besides there school classes , which would count towards a future enrollment at Uni, They call it "juniorstudies".

[SnazzyNazzy]

When my niece was a junior in high school, she went to some magnet school, that was at Ball State University. They lived on campus M-F, had access to the university library, all that fun stuff. Most of her classes were dual-credit. When she graduated from high school last summer, she earned enough college credits (all of them transferred from Ball State to IU), that it is only going to take her about 5 semesters to earn her Bachelor's Degree.

My niece is wicked smart, and is the kind of student, that took advanced calculus "for fun".

[Delilah]

And my county paid for the exams, so anyone in the class could take them.

Last week I paid $91 for my daughter's upcoming AP Calculus exam. It's not a huge amount, but it could be a barrier for some people. It's nice that your county paid the fee.

My daughter took an AP class to make her college applications more attractive. She plans on retaking calculus in college even if she passes the AP test. There have been a few points she's shaky on, and it's best if she fills in those gaps before moving on to the next class.

If Oklahoma ends up eliminating the AP system for their public schools, all their students will find it harder to be accepted into top tier universities. Sad.

[OddlyAmused]

Last week I paid $91 for my daughter's upcoming AP Calculus exam. It's not a huge amount, but it could be a barrier for some people. It's nice that your county paid the fee.

My daughter took an AP class to make her college applications more attractive. She plans on retaking calculus in college even if she passes the AP test. There have been a few points she's shaky on, and it's best if she fills in those gaps before moving on to the next class.

If Oklahoma ends up eliminating the AP system for their public schools, all their students will find it harder to be accepted into top tier universities. Sad.

It's gone up since I was in HS, then-I think it was about $80 per exam then. It's definitely a barrier for a lot of people.

I maintain that the background agenda for these people is that they don't want kids going to the top universities- those bastions of liberal education! :angry-banghead:

[Toothfairy]

Most colleges especially selective colleges don't accept CLEP exams. Which are geared more towards adult learners. CLEP exams are easier but AP goes more in depth and are much more harder. Admission officers know AP are harder than CLEP. My own daughter is taking 8 AP exams in May. She also took 5 CLEP. Only a few colleges she applied to accepts CLEP.

[sparkles]

It's gone up since I was in HS, then-I think it was about $80 per exam then. It's definitely a barrier for a lot of people.

I maintain that the background agenda for these people is that they don't want kids going to the top universities- those bastions of liberal education! :angry-banghead:

My daughter graduated in 2008 and it was $80 per AP then. She took 10 APs so between those, the ACT, the SAT, the SAT IIs and college application fees, we were fighting the cats for the kibble for a while. (No prep course though, YAY!)

I'm pretty sure many districts will help cover fees if a family qualifies.

[louisa05]

I just don't understand the mindset of "negative is unpatriotic". Why is that so? It's kinda like "obey your parents" - disagreement with something is a lack of obedience. Just because you critize someone's actions doesn't mean you'll like him/her less. Why is it so important to point out the positive and keep the negative somewhere tucked away? (serious question - I just can't figure out the logic)

I always told my students that we can love our parents, siblings, friends, etc...in spite of their being imperfect; likewise, we can love our imperfect country.

But many people, chief among them conservative politicians, see the purpose of teaching American history to be nothing more than inculcating patriotism and to do so, the country must be presented as always perfect.

[salex]

Oklahoma and the "usual suspects" (the states who pass the anti sharia laws, have governors at war with their judges because the judges found they are not funding the schools to a level required by law, etc) have some specific goals related to education, and this is just one of the symptoms. They are using the "anti fed" angle because that is the angle they use for many things... (states rights is a serious thing lately) and they are also playing the anti-elitist anti college song that is so popular with the religious right (college is filled with damnable sinners and evil professors) and the tea party. (We don't need no education)

I believe, based on just my own observation and little else, that part of why they want to kill schools, either by raiding state funds to pay for religious schools (Which they were shocked to learn in Louisiana included Non Christian religions schools--which slowed that plan down a bit in other states) or by defunding public schools to the point they are not a good option thus encouraging home schooling and, I anticipate, the introduction of their very own Talibanesque Christian Dominionist schools, at least for the boys (I heard Phyliss Schaffly for the first time in years and she was raging on about same sex education and how the ACLU was 100% against it!!! especially when you teach the girls and boys different things in different ways... I turned her off)

But this is a twofer for the ultra right wingers. Anti Fed and Anti Public school--- what more could they want?

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I don't know a lot about AP classes these days, but my niece is going to graduate high school with an Associate's Degree. I think that's pretty awesome. I wish I would have had that option! My rural school had approx 2 AP classes in my day. I earned a couple college credits in computer classes and that was about all we could do.

Oklahoma and the "usual suspects" (the states who pass the anti sharia laws, have governors at war with their judges because the judges found they are not funding the schools to a level required by law, etc) have some specific goals related to education, and this is just one of the symptoms. They are using the "anti fed" angle because that is the angle they use for many things... (states rights is a serious thing lately) and they are also playing the anti-elitist anti college song that is so popular with the religious right (college is filled with damnable sinners and evil professors) and the tea party. (We don't need no education)

I believe, based on just my own observation and little else, that part of why they want to kill schools, either by raiding state funds to pay for religious schools (Which they were shocked to learn in Louisiana included Non Christian religions schools--which slowed that plan down a bit in other states) or by defunding public schools to the point they are not a good option thus encouraging home schooling and, I anticipate, the introduction of their very own Talibanesque Christian Dominionist schools, at least for the boys (I heard Phyliss Schaffly for the first time in years and she was raging on about same sex education and how the ACLU was 100% against it!!! especially when you teach the girls and boys different things in different ways... I turned her off)

But this is a twofer for the ultra right wingers. Anti Fed and Anti Public school--- what more could they want?

I live in Indiana, where the voucher system of giving tax dollars to private schools has run rampant and where our governor started a pissing match with the State Superintendent the second they were both elected. He has just stripped her completely of her right to do her job, and someone he appoints will now fill that role. People are beyond outraged. I'm hoping this is the wakeup call this red state needs to finally wake up.