Lordship Salvation

[gustava]

(I'm reposting from previous thread and starting a new thread so I won't derail snarking on Grifter John,)

Even after the above discussion and my own googling, Lordship Salvation still confuses me. It seems to require three things: 1. acknowledging Jesus as Savior; 2. Make Jesus one''s Lord; 3. Accomplish #2 through exhibiting "fruit" of one's spirit, and this is what some people take to be "work."

John doesn't believe in "work" (ha), but does believe that one must acknowledge Jesus as both Savior and Lord, and one does the latter through a change in one's own's heart that makes one submissive to Christ.

Am I even in the ballpark???

:angry-banghead:

[KittenMitten]

Be damned if I know. I've been trying to understand this since John brought it up whenever ago. Whenever I read it I get a headache. On a thread here, guess it was a previous Shrader thread, if you are BFF with Jesus, you are good to go. Apparently you don't have to care that fellow travelers through life are starving or suffering or treated with intolerance. You just have to save them by inscrutable fundie rules. I'm sorry I can't explain it. Perhaps because it makes no sense at all and they change the rules by the day. I have read other FJ's trying to explain it, but I can't wrap my head about it. Sorry for rant. This sh*t drives me crazy.

[Evangeline]

As previously mentioned, I grew up in an IFB church, and I'm not sure I understand this either. I never heard the term before, even though I know our pastor was a fan of Hodges, Ryrie, etc. Perhaps that's why, though he never spelled out this particular debate. I think your synopsis is as good as any, so go you!

I still maintain that John and his father are playing up this theological difference to avoid answering more difficult questions.

[Palimpsest]

I'm still grappling with this but I think you are very much in the right ball park.

I'd only add to #3. Accomplishing #2 is not just through evidence of good works. It is submitting to God's will over every aspect of your life not just the easy things. God's will not your will. So a person claiming Lordship Salvation must seem like a completely changed person in the way they live their life and not revert to pre-salvation behaviors.

Speculation on why this came up with Shrader: I think Shrader has been called out on something. Perhaps lack of fruits, or arrogance, or blatant insubordination to his sending church. So his belief in Lordship Salvation (if he ever subscribed to it) has been challenged by sending and donor churches. He's trying to deny this by pretending it is all about repentance. I suspect he's been told by sending church that he's living by his choices not God's and hasn't demonstrated enough work product - so he should repent for falling off the wagon of submission to God. He's claimed that his way is God's way and he will not repent for sins he hasn't committed.

[salex]

As part of my "listen to religious radio and yell at the speakers" hobby, I have found that the more many of these people try to define and explain their little esoteric beliefs, the less sense any of it makes.

Blather and bloviate is not a good method.

[Palimpsest]

But the more they blather and bloviate and waste time arguing amongst themselves about doctrine the better.

While they are doing that they are distracted from the Great Commission. :twisted:

[Howl]

He's trying to deny this by pretending it is all about repentance. I suspect he's been told by sending church that he's living by his choices not God's and hasn't demonstrated enough work product - so he should repent for falling off the wagon of submission to God. He's claimed that his way is God's way and he will not repent for sins he hasn't committed.

I suspect that John & Esther assume they get a free pass on everything, and can't draw a go to jail card because they have given their family size over to god. John conflates the fruits of his labor with the fruit of his loins.

[slickcat79]

I'm still grappling with this but I think you are very much in the right ball park.

I'd only add to #3. Accomplishing #2 is not just through evidence of good works. It is submitting to God's will over every aspect of your life not just the easy things. God's will not your will. So a person claiming Lordship Salvation must seem like a completely changed person in the way they live their life and not revert to pre-salvation behaviors.

Speculation on why this came up with Shrader: I think Shrader has been called out on something. Perhaps lack of fruits, or arrogance, or blatant insubordination to his sending church. So his belief in Lordship Salvation (if he ever subscribed to it) has been challenged by sending and donor churches. He's trying to deny this by pretending it is all about repentance. I suspect he's been told by sending church that he's living by his choices not God's and hasn't demonstrated enough work product - so he should repent for falling off the wagon of submission to God. He's claimed that his way is God's way and he will not repent for sins he hasn't committed.

But surely his supporting churches don't expect him to be saved by works? I mean, that's a heathen catholic belief that's dangerously close to humanism...right?

[Palimpsest]

But surely his supporting churches don't expect him to be saved by works? I mean, that's a heathen catholic belief that's dangerously close to humanism...right?

Not quite. The Clash of the Apostles was hotly debated among various missionary members of my father's Bible Study group. (I told Mr P. yesterday that this whole discussion was giving me flashbacks of being a small child trying to sleep while respectable missionaries shouted at each other in the living room. :lol: ) People attending that Bible Study included mainstream Baptist (not IFB), Methodist and "High" and Low" CoE, IIRC. However, the discussion was more along the lines of what was more important as a Christian (focusing on self or focusing on helping others). I doubt they labeled it Lordship Salvation as I had never heard the term before.

I see it as a continuum. It seems to be the most extreme of the fundies who take the strict Paulist "Grace Alone" position. Moving towards the middle - that grey area of Fundie and Evangelical overlap* - we seem to get more Jamesian with Lordship Salvation including Works. Most mainstream protestant denominations don't question that Works are a part of being a good Christian, but Catholicism probably puts the most stress on Works being essential to Christianity.

* It's really hard to figure out the grey area. The fact that John had to clarify so vigorously that he does believe in Lordship Salvation is fascinating.

ETA: Not all Christian Fundies (as we loosely define them) are evangelical. Or Evangelical. Some are closed systems/Churches who really don't care about proselytizing.

[BrownieMomma]

I have never heard this term. I feel a headache coming on from trying to understand.

[Palimpsest]

Stolen from another thread: Grace Mally explains the issue to air passengers. :roll:

tomorrowsforefathers.com/gracenotes/?p=14241

[Palimpsest]

But surely his supporting churches don't expect him to be saved by works? I mean, that's a heathen catholic belief that's dangerously close to humanism...right?

Aaargh! You are right and I am wrong. This doesn't contradict the continuum I talked about in the other post - and I can't edit it now.

I just realized that I keep getting John Shrader backwards. Probably because I see no evidence of "work" when it comes to John.

After all that yapping about By Grace Alone John has finally come clean that he is a proud supporter of the heresy of Lordship Salvation. The supporting churches believe that they were lied to by him so dumped him. I thought he was trying to win them back with the Lordship Salvation. Not so.

"Source" explained the repentance bit for us here (my bolding):

Lordship Salvation is tricky. I think all Christians believe in repentance. John believes you can't just believe in Christ's sacrificial death but that you have to be "ready" to receive Christ by repenting from all your sin. People like me believe this takes away from God's free gift. If it isn't a free gift than it is a work and that is a big deal! Once he got to Zambia and started posting, certain language start to stand out. John says he doesn't believe but his own words betray him. I think a lot of churches are smarter now

By Grace Alone = repentance nice but not required, free gift.

Lordship Salvation = super special repentance.

Super special repentance = "work."

So do "Fruits of Labor" and "Good Works" have a place in Lordship Salvation? I still think so looking at other sources.

Ye gods and little fishes!

[EmiGirl]

I'm totally going to have to ask my husband about this. I'm sure he's heard of it before.

[gustava]

Think I'll just drink.

[EmiGirl]

So I just talked to the husband who studies theology in his spare time. He says that Lordship Salvation (he doesn't like that term) is used to say that works/fruits/pick your term come because you have surrendered your life to Christ. It's the evidence that you're a Christian. Salvation is still by grace alone, but because you have accepted that grace, your life shows that in how you live.

[Delilah]

Think I'll just drink.

I agree with you! :martini: I've been trying to follow this whole thing, but it just seems like splitting hairs to me. I was considering making the Shrader/Zambia thing my next rabbit hole because you all seem to have so much fun discussing it, but this lordship salvation stuff is boring. I'm impressed that so many of FJ'ers have dedicated so much time and energy into deciphering it. I salute you all!

[gustava]

So I just talked to the husband who studies theology in his spare time. He says that Lordship Salvation (he doesn't like that term) is used to say that works/fruits/pick your term come because you have surrendered your life to Christ. It's the evidence that you're a Christian. Salvation is still by grace alone, but because you have accepted that grace, your life shows that in how you live.

This makes sense to me. However, I'll still drink.

[gustava]

I agree with you! :martini: I've been trying to follow this whole thing, but it just seems like splitting hairs to me. I was considering making the Shrader/Zambia thing my next rabbit hole because you all seem to have so much fun discussing it, but this lordship salvation stuff is boring. I'm impressed that so many of FJ'ers have dedicated so much time and energy into deciphering it. I salute you all!

One of the many things I appreciate about FJers is that they know lots and are willing to help explain the esoteric of theology...aka splitting hairs.

Somewhere there's a VF/IFB thread that would require an army of ferrets to rescue you...