How I Lost My Daughter to Religious Fundamentalism

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks, Arête Jo. Enlightened me a little. Reminded me of when an e-correspondent mockingly asked me about the Lutheran doctrine of the Eucharist (she was Baptist, and smirked some questions about how long the benefits of Communion "would last" if I died too long after taking it).

I hope I didn't sound mocking in my op---until you put it to me that way, I'd just not had that frame of reference for why the traditions/rules would be so appealing.

It's a natural question to ask. We asked ourselves similar questions, as my husband and I have taken on more rules than we had growing up.

1. The rules are sort of like a set of blueprints or complex assembly instructions. You need to follow them to get to the finished product, but it's hard to get a sense of the finished product in 3D just from looking at the plans or instructions. In this case, the finished product is living the actual religious lifestyle.

2. A lot of the lifestyle involves rituals, holidays, etc. Like AreteJo said, it's often connected to good memories.

3. Rules and rituals can also serve as a way to bring the sacred/religious into ordinary life. Things like just eating or having sex or getting up in the morning can take on a religious dimension. In turn, that can make it easier for some to relate to the spiritual side of things, and it can also provide some people with more of a sense of meaning in day to day life.

I'll use the Sabbath as a practical example, since I've got my soup cooking now.

We knew about it growing up and occasionally got to observe it at summer camp or special weekends, but our families still drove, went shopping, etc. on Saturdays. They did tend to have Friday night dinners as a family, though. The list of rules for proper Sabbath observance is rather daunting, and we took it bit by bit. I still won't say that we are perfect - at a certain point, I stopped learning more rules in order to concentrate on the ones we knew, because I didn't want to get totally overwhelmed. There was a transition period that was hard. Traditional observance means no working, no driving, no electronics, no telephone, no turning on or off anything electric for 25 hours each week. We had to figure out how to do that, not just when we were away from home, but in our normal lives. How do you make sure that you are home from work on time in the winter, when the sun sets before 5 p.m.? How do you get everything prepared in advance? How do you tell your family that you won't drive to them? It was a slow transition for us, and it was a bit bumpy as we tried not to offend anyone. We found that it was hard to explain why it was okay to break the driving rule for one person, but not for another. In the end, we announced to our families that we intended to "go live" with Sabbath observance when we moved into our current home (which is a 2 min. walk to our synagogue), we let them know what that meant, and we made sure to find a place with a big living/dining room that could accommodate the whole extended family with some folding tables and chairs. Now that we've been doing it for a while, we naturally fall into a certain pattern and know what to do.

When we first started, I remember getting really fed up one Friday when the kids were younger. Nothing went right that day, the kids didn't feel great, the place was a mess, and I'd had it. I announced that we wouldn't be able to do the traditional dinner that night, and we'd just have chicken fingers and skip things until the following week. No, I didn't get struck by lightning! I did, however, have some very disappointed kids. Our special day had become just an ordinary day, and that felt like a loss. So, the kids are a big reason that we do this. We have our families over quite often, or we'll have our friends, and it's just a really nice time together. On Saturday afternoons, we also get together with friends. I'd really miss that if we didn't have it, and I also like the break from work and screens. It also gives the cooking and prep a bit more purpose. Yes, I like the food, but it feels like it's about something more as well.

[eowyn1217]

Meh. This article seems like a crock. My parents weren't fundamentalists by any means, just raging narcissists. My dad wrote me emails (while I lived at home...brave one, that guy.) telling me how angry and hurt he was that my boyfriend - now husband - was talking to me only, and not to him. That it offended him that we desired to be together all the time, that we sometimes whispered when courting in my parent's kitchen, that when I had gone to sit next to my boyfriend at church instead of him, that he felt like a "n-----" in the back. (HIS WORDS. I would never in a million years use that word.) I'm still kind of shocked that his abuse never turned physical, given how intensely emotional it was. That being said, I have some experience with narcissists, and this woman is one.

[Mermaidgrrrl]

I agree that the mother sounds like she has a narcissistic personality disorder - the same things that others have pointed out about being "best friends" with her daughter and the part at the end about daughters needing their mothers. It all sounds a bit too familiar to sit comfortably with me.

I can see the appeal of following strict religious rules as well. There's less decision-making for a start and I'm sure there's comfort in staying permanently child-like and helpless in a strange way. Then you don't really have to "own" your own life, because Jebus made it that way.

[whoviana]

The article is fishy and many things don't check out.

Let's say it's not something they whipped up to draw attention to the problem of young people being whisked to Israel to undergo some sort of a branwashing.

How many red flags does it take for a grown woman with grown children to put a stop to actually monetarily contributing of her daughter being lured into a cult, over a long period of time and with all the changes happening right under her nose?

If particular story is true, and everything happened as detailed in the article, why didn't the parents put a stop to it, sit down with the daughter, try to withdraw funds...etc???

This whole article was about a very self-absorbed and overly self-confident woman who's every other sentence was about her own perfection. Then she was dicking around when her daughter was on a slippery slope to being suckered into a cult? She was there the whole time, splashing around in her own perfection, lamely agreeing to funding her estranged daughter's needs, whom she, the perfect mother didn't know the last thing about!

If this story is true, this woman is so much in love with herself that her whole family, including the kids, were just mere ingredients or supplies to show off her perfection, and she had no idea because she didn't care about anyone else but herself, that kid of hers was profoundly lonely, lost, estranged and unhappy. She rather took guidance from a bunch of wacko cult members because she was so freaking friendless and desolate in her life.

And anyway. What freaking school with a Master's program costs hundreds of thousands of dollars? Did she go to Sorbonne or what?

PS: the end of the article was rough-and-ready, cheesy and phoney. 95 percent about a woman's perfection plus her kid becoming a cult member that cuts off family, then a rushed labor scene where they looked into each other's eyes. Not exactly the highest degree of journalism.

[Howl]

This all reminds me of the Church of Wells situation in Wells, Texas. I can't speculate on the mental health of the parents, but their desire to see their daughter removed from the Church of Wells cult has similar intensity.

From the Texas Observer article

Many seekers see the Church of Wells as an opportunity to escape sinful worldliness. The church’s “Doctrine of Judgment†holds that separation from the world—even from family and loved ones—is a prerequisite.

Elders [of the Church of Wells] make repeated use of the following bible verse: “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.†Elder Sean Morris quantifies the conflict on his blog: “Number of Parents in good relationship = 50. Number of Parents who are ‘against us’ = 35.â€

Not hard to to see where the problem lies between parents [in this situation, both missionaries] and child in this situation.

Story here: http://www.texasobserver.org/searching- ... lls-texas/

[artdecades]

An editor at Kveller has published a follow-up post, on why she chooses to believe women.

http://www.kveller.com/why-i-choose-to-believe-women/ [unbroken because it's not a fundie blog]

The response is pissing me off.

1. This is NOT about a woman reporting sexual assault to authorities. It's about a mother complaining that her relationship with her daughter went downhill. Not. The. Same.

2. If you'd listen to my grandmother when I was growing up, my mother was a horrible daughter. She repeatedly told us how everyone else treated their mothers better, everyone else treated her better, everyone else's daughter was smarter than my mom, everyone else daughter wasn't as fat as my mom, etc. In fact, my mom put up with tons of shit and has spent countless hours arranging social services, ensuring that grandma got proper medical care, paying out of her own pocket for a private caregiver at the nursing home, etc. She's also a very petite, slim woman with a Master's degree.

My MIL constantly heard from her mother that she was the worst daughter in the world. In fact, she has bend over backward to constantly accommodate a woman who is emotionally abusive.

3. I listen to men too. Women don't have a magic monopoly on truth.

4. I don't automatically believe anything or anybody. This is not a sign of disrespect. It's a sign that I have a functioning brain and critical thinking skills. I'm not saying that someone's story shouldn't be told. I'm saying that asking questions is not the same as silencing someone. Asking questions is also not oppositional, or a sign of persecution.

5. Sometimes, people don't tell the truth. Razing Ruth is one example. Many of my cases also involve information that is wrong or fabricated. We figure out the truth by thinking critically, looking for evidence, and asking questions.

I don't understand this comment. No one mentioned sexual assault. Do you think that is the only area where women are considered liars? Why else bring it up?

It is documented that women are less listened to then men in all aspects of life (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-ch ... 05532.html). Doctors and researchers don't listen to female patients and needs (http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/05/14/w ... -to-women/ ; http://www.feminist.org/research/medicine/ewm_exen.html ; http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/csw/integrate.htm), women are more likely to not be listened to in the work place (http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconside ... rk-culture ; https://hbr.org/1995/09/the-power-of-ta ... d-and-why; https://hbr.org/2014/06/women-find-your-voice ; http://www.shrm.org/hrdisciplines/diver ... xtime.aspx), politicians and legislators don't listen to women's stories and don't trust them to make decisions for themselves (look at nearly every anti-abortion bill which tells women they need to wait days to have an abortion, that they need to see a sonogram, etc. They do not trust that a woman knows what she wants and is capable of making her own decision), courts listen to women less and not just in rape cases (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-0 ... gal-system ; http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ment_.html ; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24634058), etc.

There is a very recent story that illustrates this concept very well. Jessica Williams, a popular correspondent on The Daily Show has been a fan and media choice to replace Jon Stewart. Williams responded on Twitter saying that she was honored but that she was no up for the position and did not want it because she was not yet qualified for the position. A blog called the Billfold responded by saying that she didn't know what she want, she was suffering from Imposter Syndrome, and that she should Lean In. She responded by telling them off, but the point is that they looked at her measured and thought out reason for not wanting to be host and didn't believe her. They didn't believe she knows whats best for her and the people she works with.

People don't need to be reminded that men tell the truth. This is some MRA crap. People need to be reminded, as this article points out, that women are not all emotional, hysterical creatures who exaggerate and make things up. Other than the fact that her story seems a little over the top, what are the reasons that we don't believe her? It seems to be that most people who think its fishy here are simply saying so because they don't like her tone and she doesn't fit their model of a good mother (throwing money at her daughter to fix things). That doesn't make someone less truthful. I agree that the headscarf thing is a little off, but my first thought in reading that was that the girl joined a cult that was based on Judaism and not necessarily a more restrictive branch of Judaism.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The "I believe women" hashtag has been used recently specifically in reference to sexual assault.

I was saying that it is totally inappropriate here because this is an entirely different context. It is one parent writing about a lost relationship with her daughter. It is not that we dismiss the mother. It is that the voice of another woman, the daughter, is entirely absent.

I don't take ANYONE at face value when they talk about relationship problems. Male or female.

[Firiel]

The "I believe women" hashtag has been used recently specifically in reference to sexual assault.

I was saying that it is totally inappropriate here because this is an entirely different context. It is one parent writing about a lost relationship with her daughter. It is not that we dismiss the mother. It is that the voice of another woman, the daughter, is entirely absent.

I don't take ANYONE at face value when they talk about relationship problems. Male or female.

Especially when the story has the uncomfortable, controlling undertones that this one does.

[feministxtian]

Regarding women not being listened to by doctors...

I started having gall bladder problems when I was pregnant with my youngest child. It wouldn't happen very often and could be attributed to something I ate, so I'd wait out the pain and go on with my life. Over the years, I would have more and more attacks of acute pain. EVERY ONE OF THEM was attributed, by doctors, to anxiety, to depression, to "she doesn't want to care for her children" and the capper..."how much did you have to drink". This went on for FIVE FUCKING YEARS...and my idiot, asshole X-husband believed the damn doctors (he was a misogynist son of a bitch). Until one day when I had an attack where I had been vomiting bile for 4 days straight...I ended up driving myself to the urgent care. It was a Sunday afternoon, and the damn doctor's first question was how much did I drink the night before. I grabbed him by his tie, pulled him down so I could breathe my foul, bile breath on him and promptly vomited bile all over him...he called an ambulance and I was in surgery that night.

Yeah...then there was the doctor who thought I was faking it with a displaced fracture of my fifth metatarsal...telling me that the reason it broke was "osteoporosis"...instead of my fat ass landing on it as I slid down a step.

I hate doctors with a bloody blue passion. We won't even discuss finding out how little the "experts" knew about chronic pancreatitis.

[Alye]

Regarding women not being listened to by doctors...

I started having gall bladder problems when I was pregnant with my youngest child. It wouldn't happen very often and could be attributed to something I ate, so I'd wait out the pain and go on with my life. Over the years, I would have more and more attacks of acute pain. EVERY ONE OF THEM was attributed, by doctors, to anxiety, to depression, to "she doesn't want to care for her children" and the capper..."how much did you have to drink". This went on for FIVE FUCKING YEARS...and my idiot, asshole X-husband believed the damn doctors (he was a misogynist son of a bitch). Until one day when I had an attack where I had been vomiting bile for 4 days straight...I ended up driving myself to the urgent care. It was a Sunday afternoon, and the damn doctor's first question was how much did I drink the night before. I grabbed him by his tie, pulled him down so I could breathe my foul, bile breath on him and promptly vomited bile all over him...he called an ambulance and I was in surgery that night.

Yeah...then there was the doctor who thought I was faking it with a displaced fracture of my fifth metatarsal...telling me that the reason it broke was "osteoporosis"...instead of my fat ass landing on it as I slid down a step.

I hate doctors with a bloody blue passion. We won't even discuss finding out how little the "experts" knew about chronic pancreatitis.

I'm identifying with this so strongly at the moment. I've been going to the doctors for chronic tiredness for the last 2 years and they've been constantly blowing me off. It's gotten so bad that after a couple of hours of activities I need to take a nap for a few hours.

Finally, I thought I got a doctor who was taking this seriously. Instead he is focused on me being depressed. I kept telling him that I wasn't and added that this started in a really good period in my life. He started asking questions about my thoughts. "Do I find yourself thinking about how you feel about yourself often? How other people think about you?" No. "Think back." NO! "How are other things in your life at the moment?" Fine. In the end he didn't seem to get the answers he wanted so he told me to take note of my thoughts and comeback in six weeks. What when I have the answers you like? :angry-banghead:

[littlemommy]

Ugh, doctors! I had severe uterine pain that went on for a year. First they blamed it on being pregnant, then post partim. I gritted my teeth and waited till 10 weeks post partum and tried again, no dice. It wasn't until my HUSBAND went with me and insisted that I was just a hysteric that the doctor believed me and did an ultrasound. And whaddya know, there was a problem. I guess it was just more believable when a man said it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

FWIW, I have no solid proof that the original article was even written by a woman.

I did a google search, but couldn't find any "Karin Brooke" that would match the description in the Kveller piece. It's quite possible that it's merely a pseudonym, in which case it is just as likely that it could have been written by a man. I think it's also quite possible that someone may have written this based on snippets of real stories found online. Some details sounded quite realistic, but others didn't quite make sense in context. If you are constructing a story from bits and pieces found online, it would be quite easy to see something about programs that pay participants to study or subsidize trips to Israel, something about women covering their hair, something about thick seamed stockings, something about large outreach groups on campus like Aish and Chabad, and not realize that your composite story makes no sense because you've matched the wrong details together.

I've never questioned the existence of a Kveller writer before - most provide tons of detail about their lives, or I'll realize that I know them or have some connection to them. It's not about believing "women". It's about believing this particular piece.

[VaSportsMom]

What happens when the daughter, also a woman, tells her side? Will she be given that same presumption of honesty or will it suddenly be okay to doubt her because her mother spoke first or because her mother has already told us that she is a spoiled, manipulative, brainwashed child?

[artdecades]

What happens when the daughter, also a woman, tells her side? Will she be given that same presumption of honesty or will it suddenly be okay to doubt her because her mother spoke first or because her mother has already told us that she is a spoiled, manipulative, brainwashed child?

I don't know why we can't believe both people are telling their own truth unless they are otherwise proven to be liars. This is her story, and she is going to present the situation from her point of view. You may not like that point of view, but that doesn't make her a liar. That is my point. This isn't Lisa Pennington who has been caught in lies. There is nothing in this story that suggests she is lying other than some confusing facts.

[Firiel]

I don't know why we can't believe both people are telling their own truth unless they are otherwise proven to be liars. This is her story, and she is going to present the situation from her point of view. You may not like that point of view, but that doesn't make her a liar. That is my point. This isn't Lisa Pennington who has been caught in lies. There is nothing in this story that suggests she is lying other than some confusing facts.

Personally, I don't wonder if she lying as in purposefully saying factually untrue things. My suspicion is that her point of view is far less objective than an emotionally healthy mother's might be and that her point of view is actually harmful to others around her.

I know you were replying directly to 2xx's posts, so sorry if I'm butting in. :)

[VaSportsMom]

I don't know why we can't believe both people are telling their own truth unless they are otherwise proven to be liars. This is her story, and she is going to present the situation from her point of view. You may not like that point of view, but that doesn't make her a liar. That is my point. This isn't Lisa Pennington who has been caught in lies. There is nothing in this story that suggests she is lying other than some confusing facts.

I'm sorry, I posted in haste and wasn't clear. My comment was meant to be directed at the idea of automatically believing a woman. There are two women involved in this situation and I imagine that their retelling of this story varies greatly so where does that leave this assumption of honesty?

Even if we assume that, in this particular case, both women would be telling the truth as they knew it that isn't always the case. Women are every bit as capable of deceit and manipulation as men and to assume otherwise strikes me as dangerously misinformed.

[Soulhuntress]

I wonder what the real story is here.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know why we can't believe both people are telling their own truth unless they are otherwise proven to be liars. This is her story, and she is going to present the situation from her point of view. You may not like that point of view, but that doesn't make her a liar. That is my point. This isn't Lisa Pennington who has been caught in lies. There is nothing in this story that suggests she is lying other than some confusing facts.

1. This has nothing to do with whether or not I like someone's POV.

2. Some elements of the story are extremely realistic, and I do know of families where religious outreach led to family conflict. In THIS story, though, certain elements which are realistic from other areas are NOT realistic in the context presented. It is common for MARRIED Orthodox women to cover their hair. It is common for women in some Hasidic communities such as Satmar to wear seamed stockings. Hair covering for unmarried women, though, is simply not done in these groups, which want to clearly distinguish between married and unmarried women. Lev Tahor is the only Jewish group I know that has done hair covering for unmarried girls, but they are a fringe cult that doesn't do campus outreach. The writer would know whether her daughter was married or not when she was living at home. I would have been pretty hard to be "confused" about this, and she doesn't offer any clarifcation in the comments of the article. It makes me wonder if someone added details, or combined a bunch of things found online together into one story. That would explain how you could get realistic details which don't fit together. [To give an example that some FJers may understand: imagine someone posting about Lori and Ken holding a faux Jew seder, or the Seven Sisters showing off their Christian Risque outfits. We've snarked on each of those things before, but someone who was really familiar with each would recognize that the details didn't match the people.]

3. People are entitled to their own opinions and feelings, but not their own facts. A good part of my life is spent explaining to people that there may be a version of reality other than the bad things that they assume about others. Again, I say this to both my male and female clients.