Neil deGrasse Tyson pisses off conservative Christians

[VelociRapture]

I have mixed feelings about the "people with power can't experience racism" line.

Power is an important part of the racism discussion, no question. Power dynamics can and should be discussed.

On the other hand, it's a deliberate re-definition of the term racism, which feels a bit Orwellian to me.

In the United States, race is seen as a black and white issue, and there is little chance that the power dynamic will ever be completely reversed.

Globally, the situation is quite different. Definitions of race and labelling of various ethnic groups change from country to country. Who is in power also changes. You have ethnic conflicts where yesterday's victim may be tomorrow's oppressor. It becomes complete nonsense to pretend that racism affects some groups, but not others, when it often fuels conflict on all sides.

Quick example: Belgian colonialists had a racist view which favored Tutsis over Hutus in Rwanda. Later, Hutu groups persecuted Tutsis, and 20 years ago, approx. 800,000 Tutsis were killed in the Rwandan genocide. Would anyone claim that they were not the victims of racism? [For anyone who doesn't know about the genocide, there was mass promotion of anti-Tutsi propaganda, calling Tutsis cockroaches on the radio, emphasizing any physical differences, and deliberately targeting women and children as a means of destroying the entire community.]

True. I probably should have mentioned that I suck at explaining things sometimes. And that, in the end, I really know nothing about the effect racism can have on a person simply because I have never been the target of racist behavior. I can try and imagine what it must be like for someone to experience that, but I can never really know unless I experience it firsthand.

What I explained before does seem to fit more with American culture than, to use your example, the Rwandan genocide. I can't say whether my prior statement applies to that instance of genocide or not because I honestly don't know which group was in control of the country at the time the genocide began - I want to say that the Hutus already had power or seized power and then turned their anger onto the Tutsi minority.

Maybe what I meant was institutionalized racism. But, at the end of the day, when genocide occurs (at least on a mass scale like Rwanda or the Holocaust) it is usually because the group committing the genocide already holds the majority of the power over the group being subjected to the violence.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Koala:

Sorry, I'm getting confused about the whole point of this discussion.

Is it possible to interpret Biblical verses in some really shitty ways? Obviously. There are groups that take the lines about the rod literally, just as there are groups that take the commandments to kill witches or stone adulterers literally. I never said that bad literal interpretations of some verses didn't exist.

I also realize that you may have been surrounded by the horrible literal interpretations. I know that Lori didn't make this stuff up.

My point was that I suspect that many fundies read the Bible on a superficial level and get used to hearing the same quotes over and over, but don't bother to do any deeper analysis or thinking about what they read.

I know that saying "God doesn't exist and you are just a monster beating your kid" is not an argument that will convince anyone. I think that there are many loving parents who genuinely want the best for their kids, and they are terrified that if they don't use corporal punishment, bad things will happen. There are religious parents who are terrified that their children will sin and go to hell. There are parents who are terrified that their sons will get in trouble with the law and may even die as a result. There are parents who are terrified that their children need to get a top education to get a chance at a job that will pay enough to keep them from starving.

What will convince these parents to abandon corporal punishment, and to replace it with positive parenting?

From all of my personal and professional experience, minimizing their concerns will not work.

I have gotten some positive results from taking their concerns seriously, and convincing them that it is indeed possible to have disciplined, successful and moral children without using corporal punishment. This is a bit more effective in person than online, although I have recommended some religious online resources to people. My argument is pretty simple: if they have always heard that not spanking is a sign of godless liberals being undisciplined and bringing the country to ruin, I'll give them examples of ultra-religious folks living super-disciplined lives who manage to raise kids without spanking.

I have also used this argument about Proverbs successfully with fundies. Like I said, attacking the Bible as a whole will not work. Encouraging someone to read the entire Book of Proverbs and think about it in a different way might. Back in my Babycenter days, a few fundie moms who were staunch spankers did an about-face. They were still religious, but they read passages like the beginning of Proverbs 23 and became convinced that the language wasn't intended to be taken 100% literally.

[halcionne]

Did you also miss the Jewish woman above who states that she thinks anyone is fair game? You generously stated you would "allow" Jewish members to speak, then you ignored one.

I didn't miss her comment; when I said I would allow Jewish members to speak, I meant that I would step back, listen, and not talk over them. Which is what I have done. :)

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Personally, I have very few qualms calling out any religion, be it in the majority or minority.

For example, last week I was at Disneyland and saw a group of women in full-on head to toes burkas. To me, the religious justification that requires a women to wear a burka on a hot day at a crowded theme park is as ludicrous the religious justification the Maxwells use that require the women to hike mountains in skirts. I don't care that it is a minority religion, both justifications are based in antiquated, patriarchal bullshit. I would support snarking on either one of these scenarios.

Just my 2 cents.

Ditto that.

And hey, Scientology is a minority religion. I've not seen anyone here ever let that stop them from snarking away.

[nelliebelle1197]

Ditto that.

And hey, Scientology is a minority religion. I've not seen anyone here ever let that stop them from snarking away.

Wait, what on earth could be snarkable about Scientology? Have you never seen the greatness of Battlefield Earth?? Or emetered yourself? It is all very serious and very religiousness.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Oh yes, very serious. If only we all could be super speshul cadets of the crazy. :lol:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Wait, what on earth could be snarkable about Scientology? Have you never seen the greatness of Battlefield Earth?? Or emetered yourself? It is all very serious and very religiousness.

Emetered myself? No.

However... ages and ages ago, while very not used to being in the US, I was on vacation in Seattle and by myself in the University District when someone asked me if I wanted to take a personality test. Me being completely horribly introverted and shy, a complete wuss, and just lacking any sense of how to blow people off, agreed. Or should I say, I didn't say "no" strongly enough and so got escorted to a room over a storefront.

...that was a bad move.

It was some long questionnaire about habits and whatever else and you get graded on it and yeah, I failed hard. I remember part of it was about if you make eye contact or not, I didn't, but that finally put me over the edge to think "you know, this is BS because half this stuff is cultural" and somehow I refused all the offers for "classes" and whatever else and got the heck out of there.

But yeah, not long after, I realized it was Scientology, and found the WTFery of it all. I still see their "personality test" flyers around places from time to time.

Speaking of which though this weekend at the market I glanced at the tabloid headlines (a.k.a. "getting my news the Maxwell Way") and saw something about the musician Beck being a Scientologist? I had no idea!

[happy atheist]

Emetered myself? No.

However... ages and ages ago, while very not used to being in the US, I was on vacation in Seattle and by myself in the University District when someone asked me if I wanted to take a personality test. Me being completely horribly introverted and shy, a complete wuss, and just lacking any sense of how to blow people off, agreed. Or should I say, I didn't say "no" strongly enough and so got escorted to a room over a storefront.

...that was a bad move.

It was some long questionnaire about habits and whatever else and you get graded on it and yeah, I failed hard. I remember part of it was about if you make eye contact or not, I didn't, but that finally put me over the edge to think "you know, this is BS because half this stuff is cultural" and somehow I refused all the offers for "classes" and whatever else and got the heck out of there.

But yeah, not long after, I realized it was Scientology, and found the WTFery of it all. I still see their "personality test" flyers around places from time to time.

Speaking of which though this weekend at the market I glanced at the tabloid headlines (a.k.a. "getting my news the Maxwell Way") and saw something about the musician Beck being a Scientologist? I had no idea!

Sadly yes, Beck is a scientologist. He was raised in it.