Neil deGrasse Tyson pisses off conservative Christians

[nelliebelle1197]

Freedom of Speech means that the government does not have the right to suppress what you say. It does not mean you can say whatever you want without consequences or that people can't call you out for saying something. People can make homophobic or anti-(insert religion here) and not be arrested because of freedom of speech, but they can lose their jobs or face other social stigma for those remarks (see: PP's Fire alarm business). So, seeing as I am neither a government worker nor calling for Tyson's arrest, I don't think FoS even applies here.

And what I am saying is that I found the tweet in poor taste. If I (or Josh Duggar) had made similar tweets about Ramadan, I would accept some people would be offended. It's not the meanest thing ever. Its not terrible, but I think it is in poor taste. I don't think mocking other people's beliefs is good behavior. I think it's rude, and it doesn't matter whose beliefs you are mocking.

Not that I don't come close to it here, but I keep it here (a snark site), don't take it to my social media accounts, and I'm not a public figure.

The Duggar/Ramadan analogy is a straw argument. Muslims are a persecuted minority in this country. People are actively seeking to ban them from public life, prevent them from building places of worship and shame them about there beliefs. Jews, Christians and even Hindus don't face the hate and exclusion that communities across the country subject Muslims to. Duggar tweeting that would not be in jest but out of bigotry.

[church_of_dog]

"Merry Christmas to all. A Pagan holiday (BC) becomes a Religious holiday (AD). Which then becomes a Shopping holiday (USA)."

This is PERSECUTION!!!1!1111!!!! to capitalists!

(we need a shopping-cart smiley)

[anniebgood]

I call December 25th Happy Birthday to my paternal grandfather Albert, who was born 12-25-1865 in a little town in Pommerz which is now Poland. And it's also Christmas...... :mrgreen:

[halcionne]

Am I missing some sarcasm? Poking fun at Chanukah is antisemitic but it is good fun to pick on Christians? I am hoping you are joking cause if not...

I'm not joking. In the United States, Judaism is a minority religion. I'm not Jewish, and I will allow Jewish members to speak if they choose to, but in the meantime my position is that it is categorically not the same thing to make fun of Judaism (or any other faith you mentioned in the comment directly below the one I quoted here) as it is to make fun of the default American majority religion, Christianity. Are you an evangelical? Feeling persecuted? Suck it up.

[DGayle]

To be honest, I find evangelical anti-theists as annoying as evangelical theists of any denomination.

It's cool to believe (or not believe) whatever you want. It's cool to engage in respectful discussions about what you do or do not believe.

But it's not ok to mock other people's beliefs/holidays. It's not ok to belligerently force your stances on other people.

I'm a fan of his and not particularly religious, but I felt this was rude. And if you're going to be like this, you need to make very sure you're an equal opportunity asshole and not single out one group. South Park takes PLENTY of worse shots at Christianity, but they do it to EVERYONE. Hannukah was last week, but there were no tweets about that.

What this does is just give more fuel to the conservative Christian "woe is us, we're so persecuted" garbage.

I disagree. It's a-okay for Christians to try to insult every other religion in the world by forcing their beliefs on us, which is NOTHING compared to light-hearted joking. And there's nothing rude about being factual. Why should Isaac Newton's birthday be forced to be overlooked just because it's the date the church (Christianity is so much the dominant religion that saying "the church" doesn't even leave room for the possibility of a different church) decided to co-opt a pagan holiday?

I don't see Jewish people trying to pass laws that enforce their religious beliefs on everyone else. If they start, then I'll have no problem mocking the fucking hell out of them. But right now, they keep their religion to themselves, and so I'll respect them, just as they are respecting others.

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm not joking. In the United States, Judaism is a minority religion. I'm not Jewish, and I will allow Jewish members to speak if they choose to, but in the meantime my position is that it is categorically not the same thing to make fun of Judaism (or any other faith you mentioned in the comment directly below the one I quoted here) as it is to make fun of the default American majority religion, Christianity. Are you an evangelical? Feeling persecuted? Suck it up.

It's a minority religion but it is an accepted religion and it does have a great deal power relative to size, politically and socially. It's also a culture, not just a religion, so the whole thing is much more complex than you make it out to be. Sorry, but not all Christians are like the nutty fringe - evangelicals are NOT the majority, Catholics are by a wide swath - and your position is quite bigoted. I am not Christian at all, by the way, but I truly dislike generalizations. And by the way, one of my very dear friends is a strict, observant Conservative Jew and she think Chanukah is not much of a holiday and rolls her eyes at it. I don't think anyone is off limits - it all depends on the context, just like everything in life. These tweets are not offensive to me at all. This is just a dude expressing his opinion.

By the way, there is no such monolith as "Christianity". There are literally thousands upon thousands of ways that people practice Jesus-centered religions and most of them think they are the only true path to salvation. So what exactly are you choosing to make fun of?

[pineapple450]

I'm not joking. In the United States, Judaism is a minority religion. I'm not Jewish, and I will allow Jewish members to speak if they choose to, but in the meantime my position is that it is categorically not the same thing to make fun of Judaism (or any other faith you mentioned in the comment directly below the one I quoted here) as it is to make fun of the default American majority religion, Christianity. Are you an evangelical? Feeling persecuted? Suck it up.

Judiasm, while a minority, has become accepted as much as Christianity has in the US. But Christianity is still the undisputed majority religion and enjoys a special status of near universal basic understanding. Anything with that large a group is bound to be the target of jokes, simply because more people will get the jokes. Evangelicals to act like they're being persecuted, yet enjoy all the perks of being in the majority. I think they should move to somewhere where Christianity is actually persecuted for a week (preferably during their holidays) to discover the definition of persecution.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm not joking. In the United States, Judaism is a minority religion. I'm not Jewish, and I will allow Jewish members to speak if they choose to, but in the meantime my position is that it is categorically not the same thing to make fun of Judaism (or any other faith you mentioned in the comment directly below the one I quoted here) as it is to make fun of the default American majority religion, Christianity. Are you an evangelical? Feeling persecuted? Suck it up.

I poke fun at Jewish stuff, so I'm not going to object if others do so in a non-hateful way.

I don't think that it's okay to tease the only religion X child in the school yard, but in general, I don't like the idea that some religions can be targets while others can't. One of the reasons that I'm here on FJ is because I believe in the power of comedy. It can be subversive, it can change our perspectives and it can serve as a defense against oppression. There's a reason that both fundies and dictators tend to hate and fear comedians.

ETA: I thought the Newton tweet was pretty good.

BTW, I had a moment of confusion years ago as I noticed some old photos of my dad's whole extended family gathered 'round the table, with a big roast turkey, clearly celebrating something. The date stamped on the photo was Dec. 25, 1960. "Um, dad, what's this all about? Is there something you're not telling us?" Well, they were gathered to celebrate the birth of a great man whose name starts with "J" - my great-uncle Joe.

[nelliebelle1197]

I poke fun at Jewish stuff, so I'm not going to object if others do so in a non-hateful way.

I don't think that it's okay to tease the only religion X child in the school yard, but in general, I don't like the idea that some religions can be targets while others can't. One of the reasons that I'm here on FJ is because I believe in the power of comedy. It can be subversive, it can change our perspectives and it can serve as a defense against oppression. There's a reason that both fundies and dictators tend to hate and fear comedians.

Thanks. That is actually what I was getting at in my word explosion but you totally summed it up in a brief, eloquent way. Great l'il post.

[halcionne]

Judiasm, while a minority, has become accepted as much as Christianity has in the US.

This isn't true. It's more accepted than any other minority religion and more accepted than it has ever been, but as much as Christianity? Not even close.

But Christianity is still the undisputed majority religion and enjoys a special status of near universal basic understanding. Anything with that large a group is bound to be the target of jokes, simply because more people will get the jokes. Evangelicals to act like they're being persecuted, yet enjoy all the perks of being in the majority. I think they should move to somewhere where Christianity is actually persecuted for a week (preferably during their holidays) to discover the definition of persecution.

I agree with all of this.

[halcionne]

It's a minority religion but it is an accepted religion and it does have a great deal power relative to size, politically and socially. It's also a culture, not just a religion, so the whole thing is much more complex than you make it out to be. Sorry, but not all Christians are like the nutty fringe - evangelicals are NOT the majority, Catholics are by a wide swath - and your position is quite bigoted. I am not Christian at all, by the way, but I truly dislike generalizations. And by the way, one of my very dear friends is a strict, observant Conservative Jew and she think Chanukah is not much of a holiday and rolls her eyes at it. I don't think anyone is off limits - it all depends on the context, just like everything in life. These tweets are not offensive to me at all. This is just a dude expressing his opinion.

By the way, there is no such monolith as "Christianity". There are literally thousands upon thousands of ways that people practice Jesus-centered religions and most of them think they are the only true path to salvation. So what exactly are you choosing to make fun of?

Bold 1: My position, that making fun of Christmas is okay while making fun of Chanakuh isn't, is bigoted? Is that like reverse racism or something? Because that's not a real thing.

Bold 2: Are you really using the "I have a ____ friend" argument? Yikes.

Bold 3: No, but there is an American Christmas industrial complex, if you will, which is what we're talking about in this thread.

Bold 4: See bold 3. Or reread NDT's tweets.

[nelliebelle1197]

This isn't true. It's more accepted than any other minority religion and more accepted than it has ever been, but as much as Christianity? Not even close.

I agree with all of this.

Well, at least we agree on something! :dance: I'd really like to start with ZooZoo and PeePee and move them to North Korea.

Hey, look! They even have their own website!

opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution

[nelliebelle1197]

Bold 1: My position, that making fun of Christmas is okay while making fun of Chanakuh isn't, is bigoted? Is that like reverse racism or something? Because that's not a real thing.

Bigotry and racism are different things. Bigotry is intolerance of opinion that is different than yours. Racism is systemic. Anyone can be a bigot. A racial minority cannot be racist. Prejudice has yet a third definition - it is an opinion based on something outside your experience. Anyone can be prejudice. That is why one will often see the three words used together. They don't mean the same thing. Words have meanings.

Bold 2: Are you really using the "I have a ____ friend" argument? Yikes.

Not an argument, a statement/illustration. Again, different things. Yes, people have friends. Lots of people use their friends who have different opinions and experiences from their own in order to understand differences in people, culture, etc. My friend is a 37 year old lawyer originally from California who has an fundie Orthodox sister. She is a beautifully kind and intelligent person whom I often tell makes me want to be Jewish if I could just be as content as she. People on here talk about friends with differing opinions all the time to illustrate points. I am not sure why that would suddenly be verboten.

Bold 3: No, but there is an American Christmas industrial complex, if you will, which is what we're talking about in this thread.

There is, really? Please explain. I think there is a minority of very loud assholes who like to pretend they are in first century Rome, being thrown to lions, but they certainly don't represent the majority. I think that minority is in play in this conversation since they are the ones upset.

Bold 4: See bold 3. Or reread NDT's tweets.

Did you also miss the Jewish woman above who states that she thinks anyone is fair game? You generously stated you would "allow" Jewish members to speak, then you ignored one.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Did you also miss the Jewish woman above who states that she thinks anyone is fair game? You generously stated you would "allow" Jewish members to speak, then you ignored one.

It's possible to use humor in a way that is not hateful or marginalizing. While this often happens with humor that comes from inside a group (inside knowledge tends to make it funnier), it can be funny from outsiders too. Robin Williams, an Episcopalian, was widely loved in the Jewish community and received absolutely glowing obituaries, complete with clips of some of his humor involving Jewish topics.

When it comes to Chanukah specifically, it is absolutely fair game to snark on the fact that in American popular culture, religious inclusion often = token reference to Chanukah during the Christmas season, period. No mention of any other religion, no mention of any holiday that doesn't sometimes fall during December. I appreciate the effort to acknowledge my religion in addition to Christianity - but it's a bizarre focus on a minor festival with a dubious story (it's about a civil war), which happens to fall kinda sorta around Christmas in some years. That's a basic fact, and you don't need to be Jewish to say it. The major holidays are Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Simchat Torah, Passover and Shavuot, all of which get far less attention outside the Jewish community. Buying presents was never a traditional part of Chanukah, although giving small amounts of money to kids was. [Eating greasy foods, though, is an authentic custom. I just snark on anyone who posts recipes for baked low-fat latkes, because the entire point is to eat oily stuff. Once a year, bring on the fried potatoes and jelly doughnuts!] Lots of non-Jewish Americans will recognize the menorah, but won't have a clue about another festival of lights, Diwali, that's celebrated by far more people worldwide.

[nelliebelle1197]

What the hell is a low-fat latke????? That is an abomination to pretty much everything.

I love your attitude. Reminds me of my friend. She has the same POV as you on Chanukah. She mostly does it so her public-schooled children can get treats, too, and not feel left out. She also has interesting views on kosher - her kids (9 and 7) do not have to keep kosher outside the home. She feels that it is simply too hard on little kids, based on her own kosher childhood. That will change after they hit 13, though.

I also talked to her recently about the faux-Jew Jesus lovers. They don't bother her, which surprised me. I think she feels that her rituals are beautiful and if they make people feel closer to their god, then it is a compliment to Jews. I will be offended for her. :lol: .

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, I'll disagree with your friend a bit on the non-kosher out of the home thing. It doesn't get any easier after age 13. In fact, I struggled more with it, as someone who only fully committed to keeping kosher as an adult, than my kids do. I remember loving seafood, while they don't miss what they never had.

If it's just a matter of eating vegetarian stuff out of the house, so that the kids can go on playdates with the kids from school, then her approach makes sense.

I've posted on a bunch of other threads about my feelings on the faux-Jews. Basically, I really only have a problem with them if they insist on calling themselves actual Jews instead of Christians, and if they use Jewish symbols as a way of using deceptive advertising to lure in unsuspecting Jews in order to bring them to Jesus. The worst example I saw was at my grandparents' retirement community. There was a full page ad, which looked to my parents and grandparents to be simply from a local synagogue offering services and transportation to older Jews. There was some small print about how the community also followed the "brit hadasha" and recognized "Yeshua as moshiach", but older English-speaking Jews who never learned anything about the faux-Jewish groups had no idea that this meant that the group followed the New Testament and Jesus. They knew full well that using the recognized English terms would have been an instant turn-off to their targets.

If someone is clear about the fact that they are Christian and simply wants to acknowledge or explore the Jewish roots of their religion, I don't have a problem with it.

[PennySycamore]

I call December 25th Happy Birthday to my paternal grandfather Albert, who was born 12-25-1865 in a little town in Pommerz which is now Poland. And it's also Christmas...... :mrgreen:

December 25 is also the birthday of Jimmy Buffett, Annie Lennox, Sissy Spacek, Humphrey Bogart, and Gary Sandy of WKRP in Cincinatti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_25

[nelliebelle1197]

Well, I'll disagree with your friend a bit on the non-kosher out of the home thing. It doesn't get any easier after age 13. In fact, I struggled more with it, as someone who only fully committed to keeping kosher as an adult, than my kids do. I remember loving seafood, while they don't miss what they never had.

If it's just a matter of eating vegetarian stuff out of the house, so that the kids can go on playdates with the kids from school, then her approach makes sense.

I've posted on a bunch of other threads about my feelings on the faux-Jews. Basically, I really only have a problem with them if they insist on calling themselves actual Jews instead of Christians, and if they use Jewish symbols as a way of using deceptive advertising to lure in unsuspecting Jews in order to bring them to Jesus. The worst example I saw was at my grandparents' retirement community. There was a full page ad, which looked to my parents and grandparents to be simply from a local synagogue offering services and transportation to older Jews. There was some small print about how the community also followed the "brit hadasha" and recognized "Yeshua as moshiach", but older English-speaking Jews who never learned anything about the faux-Jewish groups had no idea that this meant that the group followed the New Testament and Jesus. They knew full well that using the recognized English terms would have been an instant turn-off to their targets.

If someone is clear about the fact that they are Christian and simply wants to acknowledge or explore the Jewish roots of their religion, I don't have a problem with it.

That is AWFUL!!!! Were they taking the seniors to the fauxJew church??

[2xx1xy1JD]

That is AWFUL!!!! Were they taking the seniors to the fauxJew church??

Yes. It was a Messianic group, pretending to be a regular synagogue, offering meals and rides to seniors. The basic theology of the group was Christian (ie. Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God who died for sins etc.), but they through around Hebrew terminology that nobody else really uses and avoided actually saying church, Christian, Jesus or New Testament anywhere.

The ad in question would have appeared in the Century Village Reporter in late 2008.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Speaking of holidays in December... in 2001 after the terrorist attacks in the US, there was a movement (well-inentioned!!) to be more inclusive of other religions, including Islam. Xmas season was coming up, we've got the inclusive multicultural holidays, so okay, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and... hm, what about Islam?

Ah! Ramadan! And the ending feast of Eid-al-Fitr. Big feast, visiting with family, partying, excellent choice. And in 2001, Ramadan started Nov 17, so it was coming to an end (with the big feast!) close to Xmas, so perfect timing!

So there was a sort of "Eid is the Islamic Xmas" thing that went on.

Of course, Ramadan moves fully around the entire year (doesn't even stay roughly in the same season, like Hanukkah) so it in other years it's in the summer or whatever.

...but occasionally you can still see stuff around that's pushing the "Eid! It's the Islamic Xmas!" thing, in the winter in the US. It's just a remnant of a weird coincidence or something.

Personally I always thought it'd be more interesting to mention Jewish New Year as the "hey kids, Jewish holiday!" educational moment. It happens when there's not usually a Christian holiday happening (so the majority kids can be jealous this time!), but it happens at a time when "new beginnings" ARE a thing for mainstream US people because of the new school year. Plus it's got traditional food.

[VelociRapture]

My thoughts about persecution are the same as my thoughts about racism that I was taught by an excellent Professor in college - if you are part of a group that holds the majority of power in your community, you can't be a victim of racism. From my understanding, this is because the Government and people who hold the power will not be actively looking to pass laws or do anything that discriminates against you because you are part of the same group as them.

In the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. There are many types of denominations, but overall Protestant Christianity tends to be dominant. As such, the members of that type of religion can't be persecuted because the majority of people who have power in the country fall into the same religious group. Members of other religious movements (or no religious movement), such as Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, and even Catholicism (to a degree) can be subject to persecution.

If we were to look at a different country, such as Iran, Israel, or India, then Christians would be a minority group and could be the victims of persecution (side note: I'm not saying they do face persecution in all those countries, I just chose three with different majority religions).

That said, I honestly don't see the issue with what NDT said. He didn't say anything that wasn't true and didn't belittle anyone's beliefs. He simply pointed out that Jesus isn't the only one to celebrate a birthday on that day (even if that isn't the actual date of birth) and that other people have different beliefs.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My thoughts about persecution are the same as my thoughts about racism that I was taught by an excellent Professor in college - if you are part of a group that holds the majority of power in your community, you can't be a victim of racism. From my understanding, this is because the Government and people who hold the power will not be actively looking to pass laws or do anything that discriminates against you because you are part of the same group as them.

In the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. There are many types of denominations, but overall Protestant Christianity tends to be dominant. As such, the members of that type of religion can't be persecuted because the majority of people who have power in the country fall into the same religious group. Members of other religious movements (or no religious movement), such as Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, and even Catholicism (to a degree) can be subject to persecution.

If we were to look at a different country, such as Iran, Israel, or India, then Christians would be a minority group and could be the victims of persecution (side note: I'm not saying they do face persecution in all those countries, I just chose three with different majority religions).

That said, I honestly don't see the issue with what NDT said. He didn't say anything that wasn't true and didn't belittle anyone's beliefs. He simply pointed out that Jesus isn't the only one to celebrate a birthday on that day (even if that isn't the actual date of birth) and that other people have different beliefs.

I have mixed feelings about the "people with power can't experience racism" line.

Power is an important part of the racism discussion, no question. Power dynamics can and should be discussed.

On the other hand, it's a deliberate re-definition of the term racism, which feels a bit Orwellian to me.

In the United States, race is seen as a black and white issue, and there is little chance that the power dynamic will ever be completely reversed.

Globally, the situation is quite different. Definitions of race and labelling of various ethnic groups change from country to country. Who is in power also changes. You have ethnic conflicts where yesterday's victim may be tomorrow's oppressor. It becomes complete nonsense to pretend that racism affects some groups, but not others, when it often fuels conflict on all sides.

Quick example: Belgian colonialists had a racist view which favored Tutsis over Hutus in Rwanda. Later, Hutu groups persecuted Tutsis, and 20 years ago, approx. 800,000 Tutsis were killed in the Rwandan genocide. Would anyone claim that they were not the victims of racism? [For anyone who doesn't know about the genocide, there was mass promotion of anti-Tutsi propaganda, calling Tutsis cockroaches on the radio, emphasizing any physical differences, and deliberately targeting women and children as a means of destroying the entire community.]

[twin2]

Personally, I have very few qualms calling out any religion, be it in the majority or minority.

For example, last week I was at Disneyland and saw a group of women in full-on head to toes burkas. To me, the religious justification that requires a women to wear a burka on a hot day at a crowded theme park is as ludicrous the religious justification the Maxwells use that require the women to hike mountains in skirts. I don't care that it is a minority religion, both justifications are based in antiquated, patriarchal bullshit. I would support snarking on either one of these scenarios.

Just my 2 cents.

[nelliebelle1197]

Personally, I have very few qualms calling out any religion, be it in the majority or minority.

For example, last week I was at Disneyland and saw a group of women in full-on head to toes burkas. To me, the religious justification that requires a women to wear a burka on a hot day at a crowded theme park is as ludicrous the religious justification the Maxwells use that require the women to hike mountains in skirts. I don't care that it is a minority religion, both justifications are based in antiquated, patriarchal bullshit. I would support snarking on either one of these scenarios.

Just my 2 cents.

And this is why we love you.

[nelliebelle1197]

I have mixed feelings about the "people with power can't experience racism" line.

Power is an important part of the racism discussion, no question. Power dynamics can and should be discussed.

On the other hand, it's a deliberate re-definition of the term racism, which feels a bit Orwellian to me.

In the United States, race is seen as a black and white issue, and there is little chance that the power dynamic will ever be completely reversed.

Globally, the situation is quite different. Definitions of race and labelling of various ethnic groups change from country to country. Who is in power also changes. You have ethnic conflicts where yesterday's victim may be tomorrow's oppressor. It becomes complete nonsense to pretend that racism affects some groups, but not others, when it often fuels conflict on all sides.

Quick example: Belgian colonialists had a racist view which favored Tutsis over Hutus in Rwanda. Later, Hutu groups persecuted Tutsis, and 20 years ago, approx. 800,000 Tutsis were killed in the Rwandan genocide. Would anyone claim that they were not the victims of racism? [For anyone who doesn't know about the genocide, there was mass promotion of anti-Tutsi propaganda, calling Tutsis cockroaches on the radio, emphasizing any physical differences, and deliberately targeting women and children as a means of destroying the entire community.]

Yeah, that way too simplistic and black & white in my view. Again, things are mutable, changeable and intention and context have so much to do with everything!