Did I lose it or did I never have it to begin with.

[Knight of Ni]

Brief history to explain what I mean:

When I was a kid my family always had us go to church every Sunday. Sunday school was fun but I always found the sermons boring. During I school I continued going to church and participated in the social aspect with the youth groups. During that time during a marching band trip to a football game I sat in a group of people that included a preachers son. I honestly don't know how the subject came up but he started "witnessing" to us. He was a typical preachers son, eloquent and charismatic. Eventually I decided to join the several other students in the prayer to accept Jesus as my savior. So according to many churches I was "saved". I never got around to getting baptized. Now fast forward several years later and I've left all that behind. I now consider myself agnostic. I know many churches do not believe that you can lose your salvation.

My question is would they say I never had it to begin with or do I still have it but am just lost at the moment. Why, in some cases, can you not lose your salvation? Can people not genuinely change their mind?

ETA: This question can also apply to fundies. Do the fundies consider those that have left the fundamental lifestyle as losing their salvation or were they always lost.

[browncoatslytherin]

it depends, as christian theology varies wildly on this. growing up ifb, my automatic answer would have been that you can never lose your salvation, so if you have a "reprobate mind" i.e. you don't follow the bible and lord's commands, then you were never a true christian anyway as a true christian becomes a new creature upon salvation.

edited for clarity.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

My husband answered an alter call when he was 7. He isn't sure what moved him to do so but he was "saved" from that time on. He is now in his 40's and has told his parents flat out that he doesn't believe in god or the Bible but they assure him that his still saved and will join them in heaven. They are Southern Baptists.

[salsa]

Under the Baptist theology (and, if I'm not mistaken, other conservative and/or fundamentalist denominations), it's "once saved, always saved."

Others, including some of the more Arminian-thinking folks would say that yes, you can choose not to pursue your salvation and, not really "lose" it so much as ignore it to the point where it's no longer a part of your life. There's a little less emphasis on the afterlife in this scenario, but many would say that yes, a person can backslide to the point where they are no longer "saved."

Theologically-speaking, "saved" means, in the former scenario, that God has saved you and God's act is permanent, and thus seals your fate in the afterlife. Even if you change your mind and don't want it. In the latter scenario, salvation is seen as a human response to God's invitation and thus relies more on the "response" and subsequent living. It's not to be confused with works righteousness, where one somehow "earns" a right to God's favor, but it at least allows a person the free will to change his/her mind.

[polecat]

If you don't believe in "it," then there is no "it" to have.

As a Christian, I believe God's gift is eternal. But my beliefs are not necessarily applicable to you. Just as I think Mormons are wrong for baptizing Holocaust victims into their religion, so do I believe that I would be wrong for insisting that you are saved even when you no longer believe in salvation.

[Black Aliss]

In the Assembly of God, at least the one I was raised in, you were always in danger of losing your salvation. It was called backsliding, and the least little slip-up on your part could send you to hell. It was one area where AoG parted ways with Baptists, who believed that once you were saved you were golden. I believe we had some closet Baptists in our church because there certainly were people, especially businessmen, who seemed to think they could lie, cheat, and steal with impunity.

[formergothardite]

I was raised once saved always saved. Since I spent decades being a pretty devout Christian most people from that belief set view me as backslidden, but still saved.

[RosyDaisy]

What polecat said. I grew up in the Church of Christ. It's definitely not not a once saved always saved denomination. Even though I left the CoC, I still don't believe in once saved always saved.

Baptism only washes away past sins, not future ones. I also don't believe that accepting Christ alone guarantees salvation. This is just my personal belief. The answers you seek can only be answered by reading the Bible and deciding for yourself.

[August]

The bible says the one and only unforgivable sin is denying holy spirit, so by that token you're hellbound from now on no matter what.

[Black Aliss]

The bible says the one and only unforgivable sin is denying holy spirit, so by that token you're hellbound from now on no matter what.

Hell for me would be an eternity spent with all the relatives and others who were always telling me I was going to hell. So if they are going to heaven I guess that's where I'll end up as well.

[MissA]

I am not 100% sure about this, so people should feel absolutely free to correct me, but I think that in the Roman Catholic church you can absolutely lose your salvation.

I was a cradle Catholic, baptized, confirmed, etc but as I aged now consider and openly declare myself to be an atheist. I am thus both a heretic and an apostate and am therefore automatically excommunicated from the church. I was at various points free from sin, but now I ain't. So AFAIK, in their minds, I am still a Catholic, but one who is going to hell. And should I change my mind and wish to be brought back into communion I believe I could not be absolved by a regular priest but would have to talk to my bishop. Though since I've not been especially pesky about my atheism and haven't gone around ordaining bishops or anything I believe the return to faith is fairly pro forma.

No idea of how this works in the Protestant denominations, but I'm fairly sure it's true for Catholics.

[feministxtian]

I am not 100% sure about this, so people should feel absolutely free to correct me, but I think that in the Roman Catholic church you can absolutely lose your salvation.

I was a cradle Catholic, baptized, confirmed, etc but as I aged now consider and openly declare myself to be an atheist. I am thus both a heretic and an apostate and am therefore automatically excommunicated from the church. I was at various points free from sin, but now I ain't. So AFAIK, in their minds, I am still a Catholic, but one who is going to hell. And should I change my mind and wish to be brought back into communion I believe I could not be absolved by a regular priest but would have to talk to my bishop. Though since I've not been especially pesky about my atheism and haven't gone around ordaining bishops or anything I believe the return to faith is fairly pro forma.

No idea of how this works in the Protestant denominations, but I'm fairly sure it's true for Catholics.

I left the Catholic church for another Christian denomination...however, from what I understand (from my daughter who went through the process), you have to go to confession and they prefer you go through a form of the RCIA classes called "Welcome Home"...She's now back in the good graces of the church. Her boyfriend's family is all Catholic (RABID Mexican Catholic) and she chose to go back...they're planning to get married sometime in 2015 and it will be a church wedding.

[Geechee Girl]

My Baptist family would say as long as one accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, salvation is everlasting, even after backsliding. However, my Pentecostal relatives believe salvation is conditional upon how one lives. I can't recall the SDA stance on salvation.

[uber frau]

Under Calvinist theology you've always been damned. Except that humans aren't allowed to make that call since God, in his infinite wisdom, may have numbered you among the elect and earmarked you for a miraculous conversion between now and your death.

[Arete]

In Eastern Orthodoxy, not only is salvation conditional on how you lived your life, no one, not even the holiest nun, can assume they are saved until they actually stand before God on the day of judgement.

The EOs see salvation as a continuum, not a polarity. You can be a Christian from birth or have a singular revelation at a later point in life and grow from there. Only God can judge our sincerity, man is not allowed to make judgements on another person's salvation in this theological system.

[Dandruff]

Among the various Christian denominations, how binding are salvation decisions made by children? Is there any difference between the choice of a precocious 4-year-old vs. a teenager or older adult to get saved? Would the subsequent renouncement of the person saved at age 4 be treated or considered any differently than the ones who were saved later - by the church and/or by Heaven? Also, how much does ceremony matter? If someone makes a firm decision to be saved at church next Sunday, then dies on Saturday, what is their status?

[browncoatslytherin]

Among the various Christian denominations, how binding are salvation decisions made by children? Is there any difference between the choice of a precocious 4-year-old vs. a teenager or older adult to get saved? Would the subsequent renouncement of the person saved at age 4 be treated or considered any differently than the ones who were saved later - by the church and/or by Heaven? Also, how much does ceremony matter? If someone makes a firm decision to be saved at church next Sunday, then dies on Saturday, what is their status?

from what i was taught growing up in ifb...

- there's no difference in age, if a person gets saved, they're saved

- no difference

- in ifb, there is no real "ceremony"...no specific prayer to say or thing to do. just pray, acknowledge you're a sinner, acknowledge that jesus is the son of god and provides us salvation from eternal damnation, and ask him into your heart. badabing, badaboom, you're saved.

- again, in ifb, if you don't say the sinner's prayer, you're doomed. so even if you've decided to do it, if you haven't done it when you die, you're not saved. this is often used as a scare tactic..."what if you die in a car crash on the way home?! what if you get hit by a bus crossing the street?! what if there's some other freak accident and you're doomed to eternal hellfire because you didn't want to get saved just yet?!" chick tracks also play this up, too.

[Dandruff]

Thanks browncoatslytherin. Sounds very scary. Is it really a person's free will to be saved if they're being threatened by eternal damnation otherwise?

[browncoatslytherin]

Thanks browncoatslytherin. Sounds very scary. Is it really a person's free will to be saved if they're being threatened by eternal damnation otherwise?

lol that is something i had to consider when i got out of christianity, myself ;)

[shedemei]

I was also raised Southern Baptist. Once saved, always saved. They believe in grace, not works, so unlike that totally blasphemous religion of Mary- worshippers, you can't lose your ticket to salvation.

If you live a life of sin, however, the explanation is that you were never truly saved to begin with.

[Black Aliss]

I was also raised Southern Baptist. Once saved, always saved. They believe in grace, not works, so unlike that totally blasphemous religion of Mary- worshippers, you can't lose your ticket to salvation.

If you live a life of sin, however, the explanation is that you were never truly saved to begin with.

Aha! The "no true Scotsman" play.

[uber frau]

In Calvinism there is no age of accountability and no decisions to be saved. It's all God's decision. Some souls are damned and some are saved. It makes no difference how old or young the body is (it's the soul that is judged because it is human and, therefore,a little lower than a dog turd on the bottom of God's shoe by definition ) or how 'good or 'bad'(goodness or otherwise is judged to a completely different standard by the Calvin is God-even the best works are crap so don't even bother trying) a person's actions are.

Some ppl never undergo any kind of obvious conversion, some have a full on road to Damascus experience. Both are equally valid.

[Maggie Mae]

I've never really grasped the whole southern baptist "thing" about works not leading to salvation. A long time ago, I was a weird teenager in catholic school, who was raised to care about other people and volunteer and give to charity. I did these things because I liked to do things for others. And I met this guy whose mom chased me off because I was about "works" and not "salvation" (which still makes no sense to me) and I "worshiped Mary" and "prayed to pedophiles." At the time, I was confused and hurt that someone could hate me just because of where I went to school. Then I started to be confused about the doctrine and ask questions. Seems to me that it's just a selfish way to live. "Oh, I'm going to heaven because I said a prayer once when I was 5. You aren't because you seem to think that volunteering at a children's home is a good use of time. You should pray this prayer with me instead, and then we can go out to eat." NO thank you.

And once I had someone tell me that the problems in my state, that I deal with in my career, are "a spiritual problem" and "can only be solved when they accept Jesus." Tell me how saying a prayer one time when they are 5, but not doing anything else, will help erase the problems of extreme poverty?

Even if they are correct in that "good works won't get you to heaven" there is no reason why anyone shouldn't want to be a good person. There doesn't have to be an either/or. But apparently it's either "be saved" and sit around praying, or volunteer and go to hell. At least that's the general way it's been explained to me.

[samurai_sarah]

Knight of Ni: What, precisely, do you want? Do you want to be "saved"? Do you want to believe? Do you want comfort? Do you want someone to take you by the hand? Do you want someone to tell you what to do?

Sorry for being harsh. I could tell you all about my Catholic upbringing, or my voyage towards atheism, and it will make no difference. You are the only one who knows. My truth isn't your truth. So, what do you really want? What are you hoping for?

When it comes to faith, only YOU can answer your own questions. The rest of us can interpret, give our own answers, and tell you whatever we believe. However, the Christian deity gave you agency, and said deity - if my Catholic religious education classes are anything to go by- won't punish you, for exercising what said deity has given you, to your best knowledge and ability.

The gospels are supposed to be "good news". So, if there is a Christian deity, the good news is that we're all saved. Jesus redeemed the world. If you truly believe and doubt, then the Christian deity is like your (non-abusive, loving) parents: "We're disappointed, but we love you".

However, at the end of the day, you get to to decide. Or don't. You don't have to have to label yourself. You don't have to do anything. You can choose, or not...

(I hope this makes some sort of sense. The mulled wine was stronger than I thought. <--- spelled "thought" as "taught" 3x in a row. If it doesn't make sense4, ask me about the mulled wine recipe! :mrgreen: )

[Knight of Ni]

Knight of Ni: What, precisely, do you want? Do you want to be "saved"? Do you want to believe? Do you want comfort? Do you want someone to take you by the hand? Do you want someone to tell you what to do?

Sorry for being harsh. I could tell you all about my Catholic upbringing, or my voyage towards atheism, and it will make no difference. You are the only one who knows. My truth isn't your truth. So, what do you really want? What are you hoping for?

When it comes to faith, only YOU can answer your own questions. The rest of us can interpret, give our own answers, and tell you whatever we believe. However, the Christian deity gave you agency, and said deity - if my Catholic religious education classes are anything to go by- won't punish you, for exercising what said deity has given you, to your best knowledge and ability.

The gospels are supposed to be "good news". So, if there is a Christian deity, the good news is that we're all saved. Jesus redeemed the world. If you truly believe and doubt, then the Christian deity is like your (non-abusive, loving) parents: "We're disappointed, but we love you".

However, at the end of the day, you get to to decide. Or don't. You don't have to have to label yourself. You don't have to do anything. You can choose, or not...

(I hope this makes some sort of sense. The mulled wine was stronger than I thought. <--- spelled "thought" as "taught" 3x in a row. If it doesn't make sense4, ask me about the mulled wine recipe! :mrgreen: )

Good questions. Mainly it was just curiosity. I find religions interesting and was wondering how the situation would be interpreted based on different versions of Christianity.

Another is a little bit of indignation. The guy who did the talking when I was in high school would probably say that I am just going through a phase and will eventually see the light. My reaction would be "No damn it, I am able make my own decisions about this.

And, honestly, I have been undergoing a massive change in my faith and what I believe. It's been gradual starting from a few years ago. But, I've only recently been able to admit to a few of my closest friends that I'm not religious. It's tough to leave behind a part of your childhood like that. I know most of my family wouldn't be ok with it. Some of my friends might not be either. Sometimes I feel like I'm alone with making these decisions. So many of my friends still believe and find their faith extremely fulfilling. I have spent a long time wondering what the differences between them and me are. Did I not believe hard enough?

Then I tell myself that my life is fulfilling enough without religion. I don't need it to be happy or content.