Death row inmate thinks god is worried about what he eats.

[FoxyMoxie]

Look up and see what this cretin did to the family he is charged with murdering. I'm not a proponent of the death penalty by any means, but there are things that in my mind merit it. His crimes more than merit it.

I feel like the point kind of went over your head there.

JillyO is pointing out that you and the others who want the prisoner in question to be murdered (since the death penalty is just government-sanctioned murder) are as guilty of fundamentalism as the people you snark on. Nobody is denying that the prisoner in question did an awful, awful thing.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I feel like the point kind of went over your head there.

JillyO is pointing out that you and the others who want the prisoner in question to be murdered (since the death penalty is just government-sanctioned murder) are as guilty of fundamentalism as the people you snark on. Nobody is denying that the prisoner in question did an awful, awful thing.

Speaking just for myself, I will quite happily call myself a legalistic pharisee here.

I don't support the death penalty in the United States or Canada, because I believe that the criminal justice system is far from perfect and prone to racial and economic bias, and we know that people have been wrongly convicted. If it's possible to lock someone away for life and protect the public that way, you are still depriving someone of life, but in a passive way rather than an active way, and it's possible to deal with wrongful convictions.

Morally, I don't think that a murderer can achieve perfect forgiveness, because the victim is no longer around to forgive them. This is one area where my view are in sharp contrast to Christian theology. I find the notion that someone like this man could think that merely adopting a belief in Jesus could wipe clean his past sins deeply offensive.

[latraviata]

The decline of humanity:

It starts with a simple murder and ends with treife meals.

[Black Aliss]

Wow. For a website snarking on religious fundamentalism, lots of people here seem to be taking the biblical "eye for an eye" at face value.

It is human nature to want "an eye for an eye" or to wish some fate worse than death on a person who has committed an unspeakable act against humanity. That is why we are a nation of laws--to prevent us from acting on our basic instincts.

That said, I'd be curious to know if this guy was an Orthodox Jew before he went to prison, or if this is a new belief he picked up.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It is human nature to want "an eye for an eye" or to wish some fate worse than death on a person who has committed an unspeakable act against humanity. That is why we are a nation of laws--to prevent us from acting on our basic instincts.

That said, I'd be curious to know if this guy was an Orthodox Jew before he went to prison, or if this is a new belief he picked up.

No, he wasn't. He "self-converted", so technically he's not Jewish at all. Prisons, however, will accommodate someone if they claim to follow a particular religious belief.

[blisterine]

The prison my mother worked at had the regular meal (usually carb heavy slop) and some limp vegetables. They also had a very skimpy salad bar. Anyone needing a special meal got a peanut butter sandwich, an orange, and onion rings fried in vegetable oil. I have no idea if they considered this kosher, but it met the needs of the Muslim population.

My mother was required to eat her meals at the prison but she usually brought leftovers.

[JillyO]

I feel like the point kind of went over your head there.

JillyO is pointing out that you and the others who want the prisoner in question to be murdered (since the death penalty is just government-sanctioned murder) are as guilty of fundamentalism as the people you snark on. Nobody is denying that the prisoner in question did an awful, awful thing.

Yes, this. And not only are people here defending the death sentence, but several people have actually said that the state should just let the prisoner starve. That is just about as fundamentalist as it gets. Maybe we could stone him? Surely what he did would merit that.

[DGayle]

If you're a convicted felon, then fuck your right to freedom of religion. Want to eat the diet of your choosing? Then don't kill people. Otherwise eat what you're given, or die. I don't see this as cruel and unusual or any violation of rights. You choose to kill, you choose to give up your rights, and cruel and unusual would be getting nothing to eat, not getting food you choose not to eat.

[FloraKitty35]

I don't believe in the death penalty and due to the notoriety of the case and the fact the two of the victims were children, I am going to say he is most likely in a secure unit. He should be released into general prison population and let his fellow inmate take care of him (permanently), since child killers are not the most popular folks in prison.

[Koala]

I would no sooner suffer his bullshit than I would fly to the moon. He doesn't want to eat? Fine. Let his sorry ass starve.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If you're a convicted felon, then fuck your right to freedom of religion. Want to eat the diet of your choosing? Then don't kill people. Otherwise eat what you're given, or die. I don't see this as cruel and unusual or any violation of rights. You choose to kill, you choose to give up your rights, and cruel and unusual would be getting nothing to eat, not getting food you choose not to eat.

Are you talking specifically about this guy, or ANY convicted felon?

The vast majority of felons are not murderers. In the United States, almost half are in jail due to drug offenses.

http://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/sta ... fenses.jsp

Do you really want to deprive all the victims of the misguided war on drugs of basic human rights and connection to their spiritual community? Oh, and despite similar rates of drug use, blacks are 10x more likely to be arrested for drug offenses.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/0 ... 34310.html

[Burris]

And not only are people here defending the death sentence, but several people have actually said that the state should just let the prisoner starve. That is just about as fundamentalist as it gets. Maybe we could stone him? Surely what he did would merit that.

If he won't eat what the prison kitchen serves, even though the food has been certified as kosher, what should the prison do - force-feed him? If they capitulate to every whim he has merely because he threatens to injure himself if they don't, then they should be treating the non-violent offenders in general population as if they're guests at a top shelf hotel.

He isn't asking for humane treatment; he already has that. He wants preferential treatment. For some reason, he believes he's entitled to it.

The death penalty is unevenly applied, and mistakes are impossible to rectify. This man requested the death penalty, however, after admitting his guilt for a god-awful triple murder. When he made his first flat, emotionless confession to police, he still smelled of gssoline. He claimed to have committed rape merely to ‘square away' with his partner's act. He claimed the male victim - the lone survivor - whose head he smashed in with a baseball bat (while the man slept) was a coward for failing to prevent the home invasion and even tried to implicate him as an accomplice - all a mere seven years ago.

This isn't a man who believes he did wrong. This is a man who thinks life itself cheated him because, at no point since his first conviction at age 16 has anyone been able to physically prevent him from a continuous pattern of ruin.

Well, now he's in prison for the rest of his life, with more than a decade of appeals ahead of him (and he will use every single one of them). He has been stopped. Life can no longer cheat him that way - and his reaction is to whine over every tiny imagined injustice done him while in prison.

It's not overzealous in this case to argue that if he won't eat, that is no one else's problem but his own.

[CallmeChaCha]

Wait, this is one of the guys from the Cheshire Murders? HBO had a documentary about it last year. After what he did to those people and now he wants special treatment? Some people :snooty:

[Callipygian]

I'm from CT and Hayes pisses me off so much. After what he and Komisarjevsky did to Jennifer, Hayley and Michaela, as well Bill, he deserves a lot worse than not getting a special diet. I, as a lapsed Catholic/atheist, cannot see how he thinks God would be angry at him for not eating Kosher, but would give him a pass for the heinous acts he committed. Yeah, okay. Thats not the kind of God I would want to put my faith into.

The Petit Family Foundation (petitfamilyfoundation.org) is a great organization. Dr. Petit is the founder/President and has taken the foundation to great heights and does wonderful things for the CT community. He has gotten remarried and has a son that just turned a year old. I wish the best for him as well as his wife and son.

[amydamy]

It is human nature to want "an eye for an eye" or to wish some fate worse than death on a person who has committed an unspeakable act against humanity. That is why we are a nation of laws--to prevent us from acting on our basic instincts.

That said, I'd be curious to know if this guy was an Orthodox Jew before he went to prison, or if this is a new belief he picked up.

Appaerntly he "signed up for Judaism" in prison which is not something I knew you could do.

in January 2013 I signed up for Judaism after I learned that Rabbi Schectman was in fact coming to [Northern Correctional Institution] to perform services. Prior to this I was following the philosophy of Taoism since I was told no rabbi came to Northern. I had last practiced Judaism with Rabbi Schectman at Somers Correctional Institution in the mid to late 90s."

From the article someone linked above.

[salex]

I don't believe in the death penalty and due to the notoriety of the case and the fact the two of the victims were children, I am going to say he is most likely in a secure unit. He should be released into general prison population and let his fellow inmate take care of him (permanently), since child killers are not the most popular folks in prison.

I tend to view the death penalty as a tool that should be available but used rarely and judiciously for people who have forfeited their right to be among us by their horrific actions.

I am, on the other hand, very much against the whole "let the prisoners rape/kill other prisoners for punishment" concept. I know it happens, but I find it horrible that it does and that we not only accept it but sometimes applaud it and joke about it. Having him killed unofficially vs officially does not make him less dead, nor does it absolve the system of his death. It simply makes the whole process more barbaric and anarchic.

[JillyO]

If he won't eat what the prison kitchen serves, even though the food has been certified as kosher, what should the prison do - force-feed him? If they capitulate to every whim he has merely because he threatens to injure himself if they don't, then they should be treating the non-violent offenders in general population as if they're guests at a top shelf hotel.

I am not at all saying that he should get the special treatment he requested. I am actually perfectly fine with the court's decision in this case. What I was saying was that people in this thread said that we should let him starve, or give him one loaf of bread a week. Now someone said he should be put together with the general prison population, as they will take care of him (which can really only mean they will kill him, or rape and then kill him). That is barbaric and not worthy of a Rechtsstaat. And quite frankly, I find it appalling.

[And actually, yes, if he refuses to eat what he is being served (since he is being served kosher food), I believe he should be force-fed. It happens all the time with people on hunger strikes.]

[Boogalou]

I don't really see the problem here. He fake-converted to Judaism and asked for Kosher food. The prison gave him Kosher food that was certified Kosher by a rabbi. Problem solved. He can file all the complaints and lawsuits and whatnot that he wants but he is getting exactly what he asked for. He is obviously doing this because he enjoys it, has nothing better to do, and nothing to lose. I can't imagine anyone taking this complaint seriously.

[stacyf]

I won't say much about how I really feel because I think living a town over from this heinous crime clouds my judgement. I will say that after reading Executioner's Song I have been against the death penalty but I find it difficult to feel that way about Komisarjevsky & Hayes. It is really leaves me conflicted. I do think that the next time he tries to commit suicide that they just let him go and do it.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Who are we to tell someone they aren't "Jewish" enough? Who cares?? Sorry, but I think all religion is a crock. You don't see me carding people for their "Jewish" card before they they buy gefilte fish at the grocery. Jeez. I mean, it sounds like the prison has satisfied the legal requirement for kosher, but this is such an obnoxious argument to me.

I know I'm being idealistic, and if I were close to a case (like, someone I loved was murdered), I would have a really hard time being objective and kind. The court system is, in theory, there to ensure everyone is treated with respect. I think most of us (including me) need it as a buffer so we can at least PRETEND people are getting due process and equal treatment.

Jails ARE cold. They ARE inhumane. They don't adequately treat mental and physical health issues (I really hate hearing about how wonderful healthcare is in the prison system - come on, guys. do you actually believe that??). People don't get their heart, let alone psychiatric medicine. They don't have their corrective eyewear. They are kept in tiny holding cells for days at a time. Women are ROUTINELY not given feminine items. They die from treatable and extremely slow growing cancer (like prostate and ovarian). In many places, the food served is spoiled. They are put in solitary (punitive) for seizures (they aren't getting medication for). Where do we draw the line on who has the ability to ask for better conditions? This guy may be a lost cause, but there are a whole lot of people who are going to be free again after serving significant time in this terrible environment. Want them to have learned how to clandestinely murder someone in prison? To get out with untreated and severe mental health issues? Frankly, I'm a bit shocked at all the comments about letting general populations "take care" of him, or letting him starve to death, or denying him religious freedom.

He's never getting out (for good reason). Let him sue.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Who are we to tell someone they aren't "Jewish" enough? Who cares?? Sorry, but I think all religion is a crock. You don't see me carding people for their "Jewish" card before they they buy gefilte fish at the grocery. Jeez. I mean, it sounds like the prison has satisfied the legal requirement for kosher, but this is such an obnoxious argument to me.

I know I'm being idealistic, and if I were close to a case (like, someone I loved was murdered), I would have a really hard time being objective and kind. The court system is, in theory, there to ensure everyone is treated with respect. I think most of us (including me) need it as a buffer so we can at least PRETEND people are getting due process and equal treatment.

Jails ARE cold. They ARE inhumane. They don't adequately treat mental and physical health issues (I really hate hearing about how wonderful healthcare is in the prison system - come on, guys. do you actually believe that??). People don't get their heart, let alone psychiatric medicine. They don't have their corrective eyewear. They are kept in tiny holding cells for days at a time. Women are ROUTINELY not given feminine items. They die from treatable and extremely slow growing cancer (like prostate and ovarian). In many places, the food served is spoiled. They are put in solitary (punitive) for seizures (they aren't getting medication for). Where do we draw the line on who has the ability to ask for better conditions? This guy may be a lost cause, but there are a whole lot of people who are going to be free again after serving significant time in this terrible environment. Want them to have learned how to clandestinely murder someone in prison? To get out with untreated and severe mental health issues? Frankly, I'm a bit shocked at all the comments about letting general populations "take care" of him, or letting him starve to death, or denying him religious freedom.

He's never getting out (for good reason). Let him sue.

The prison system tends to accept at face value any prisoner's declaration that they follow a particular faith, precisely because they don't want to be deciding religious status.

In regular life, if someone feels like buying kosher, it's not a big deal. In prison, though, kosher meals get requested for reasons that often have nothing to do with religion (in fact, most kosher prison meals are eaten by non-Jews).

I brought up the fake Jew angle because:

1. He's a fake Jew with fake kosher standards. He WAS getting kosher meals, but arbitrarily declared that these weren't good enough.

2. In his particular case, he's an attention-seeking sociopath with a history of bogus claims. It was never about his religious beliefs.

3. I do have concerns about the rights of real Jews being affected if bogus claims are made.

I do agree that in general, prisons need a ton of improvement and non-violent offenders probably shouldn't be there at all.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

XX, I totally understand. I read about the crime, and this guy is a monster. In fact, for all my hippie idealism, I would probably struggle treating him compassionately in person. He is objectively a wretched human being. Regardless of this, I stand by my principles of humane treatment (to the best of our abilities).

I also completely agree that he is using whatever angle he can to manipulate people. The Kosher meal is as Kosher as it's going to get in prison. Sorry (not sorry), dude.

I just figure, we can't be selective in whom we allow their freedoms. So, as much as this dude would rot in hell by just about any religious standard, in this plane of existence he should be able to request his meals and sue to the best of his limited ability. I doubt he gets any satisfaction out of life in any capacity - protective custody is not fun (he doesn't deserve fun, but it's about as bad as it gets without overt torture).

I think of FJ as being pretty liberal and human-centered, so it has been pretty eye-opening to read some of these opinions.

[DGayle]

Are you talking specifically about this guy, or ANY convicted felon?

The vast majority of felons are not murderers. In the United States, almost half are in jail due to drug offenses.

http://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/sta ... fenses.jsp

Do you really want to deprive all the victims of the misguided war on drugs of basic human rights and connection to their spiritual community? Oh, and despite similar rates of drug use, blacks are 10x more likely to be arrested for drug offenses.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/0 ... 34310.html

I was addressing killers.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I was addressing killers.

People who are convicted of murder have various reasons for killing and disparate levels of complicity. So that doesn't really work. Some of the most heinous crimes are not considered first degree, because they weren't premeditated. Drivers who cause car accidents can be convicted of murder. Women who defend themselves against their abusive spouses can be convicted of murder. Children, the mentally ill, and those with an Intellectual Disability have been convicted of murder, whether rightly or not. People have been wrongly executed and sentenced to life (not this guy, but the point stands). So let's not pretend it's okay to decide who should and should not be treated with a basic level of consideration and humanity.

[DGayle]

People who are convicted of murder have various reasons for killing and disparate levels of complicity. So that doesn't really work. Some of the most heinous crimes are not considered first degree, because they weren't premeditated. Drivers who cause car accidents can be convicted of murder. Women who defend themselves against their abusive spouses can be convicted of murder. Children, the mentally ill, and those with an Intellectual Disability have been convicted of murder, whether rightly or not. People have been wrongly executed and sentenced to life (not this guy, but the point stands). So let's not pretend it's okay to decide who should and should not be treated with a basic level of consideration and humanity.

The blanket term for it all isn't murder. It's homicide.

A car accident is manslaughter. Self-defense is, at worst, manslaughter, unless done when the abuser is not an imminent threat. Murder is intentional, whether it's planned, or you shank a guy at a bar over a lost billiards bet.

People who KILL shouldn't expect to keep all their rights. Work them 20 hours a day? No. Worry about special diets that aren't medically necessary? No. If your religious diet is so important, then don't MURDER people. If your kid was raped and killed, would you be out there saying that the rapist-murderer should get a diet he says is because of religion? Or would you say he should have thought about that before torturing your child?