Awfully Altered Modest is Not Hottest Wedding Gown Explained

[moodygirl86]

Modesty is more about humility, propriety and deference within ourselves. When apostle Paul talks about women dressing modestly, he meant not to be extravagant, flaunting wealth and he speaks about not not having elaborate hairstyles or elaborate decor with the clothing. Modesty is not to prevent others from responding with arousal or lustful thoughts, it is about being humble and unassuming.

I don't find the Duggar girls, the Bates or other Fundie Girlsto be modest by this definition. They have elaborate hair styles and make up, and their attitude is often one of superiority re: their modesty. They clearly hold the fact that they are more modest than the rest of us heathens in an arrogant way. And arrogance, is not modest.

YESSS. I find this contradictory attitude within a certain minority of people in the rock/punk/goth scene. While most of us have our own individual style, like what music we like and not just respect but positively embrace other people's differences to themselves, I've met one or two with a really snobby attitude to music or fashion. Those people think that you have to listen to certain bands or you're not "truly" alternative. Or that you shouldn't wear Vans trainers if you don't listen to a lot of rock. Who cares? This kind of snobbiness is what punk in particular is supposed to be rebelling against. Worse still, the people I'm thinking of were in their late 20s to early 30s when this is the kind of mentality you'd expect from schoolkids.

[ExCatholic]

The focus on modest clothing drives me nuts, because it misses the point of modesty. Wearing long skirts or high necklines doesn't make a person modest. Modesty is a state of mind. It isn't modest to dress in long denim skirt and shapeless t shirt but yet spend hours upon hours doing your hair and makeup.

This! In one of her Awk/Awe posts she says the neighbors didn't recognize her without makeup. Honey, that means you're wearing too much makeup!

Her swimsuit review highlights the ridiculousness of this false modesty as well. Adding leggings and a halftee to an already modest tankini with skirt just makes you stand out from the crowd. Look, look here, I'm being modest, did you see? Heaven forbid everyone present not notice that I'm more modest than they are!

Modesty is not a physical performance, its an attitude.

[ExCatholic]

I'm surprised she posted a Catholic wedding on her blog, actually. Has anyone ever checked out http://apostolicclothing.com/ ? They have lots of fashionable clothing that covers a bit more. There are some denim skirts I am thinking of ordering. I've always preferred to dress more modestly, not because of religious reasons, just because that is how I am comfortable. Love a skirt just at knee length or below and a top with a three quarter sleeve. Don't mind a deep V-neck though......

They have some cute things! I prefer a bit of coverage as well, though now that I'm nursing my girls are out in the world for all to see. Still love a good knee length skirt though - flattering AND easy to bend over in without giving a show.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The focus on modest clothing drives me nuts, because it misses the point of modesty. Wearing long skirts or high necklines doesn't make a person modest. Modesty is a state of mind. It isn't modest to dress in long denim skirt and shapeless t shirt but yet spend hours upon hours doing your hair and makeup.

Modesty is more about humility, propriety and deference within ourselves. When apostle Paul talks about women dressing modestly, he meant not to be extravagant, flaunting wealth and he speaks about not not having elaborate hairstyles or elaborate decor with the clothing. Modesty is not to prevent others from responding with arousal or lustful thoughts, it is about being humble and unassuming.

I don't find the Duggar girls, the Bates or other Fundie Girlsto be modest by this definition. They have elaborate hair styles and make up, and their attitude is often one of superiority re: their modesty. They clearly hold the fact that they are more modest than the rest of us heathens in an arrogant way. And arrogance, is not modest.

It is just another example of messed up the Gothard Teachings are. They focus on a superficial part of biblical teaching, without really knowing the true meaning.

For better examples of modesty, look at how Apostolic Christian women dress. Or the Mennonite or Amish. They keep their hair long, but it is always tied back or up, not in elaborate buns, but in basic buns, knots or wrapped braids. Most of them do not wear makeup, and shy away from clothing that would call attention to them, such as bright colors, etc.

For a good article that explains this better see this. (Spaces added to break the link)

http:// qideas . org/articles/ modesty-i-dont-think-it-means- what-you-think-it-means/

The definition of modest varies from group to group, and from culture to culture. For example, non-Christians obviously don't care what Paul said.

Plain dressing is a value for some, but not others. I've heard some others talk about putting the emphasis on the face, not other body parts.

[FoxyMoxie]

Yeah I don't think it's immodest to wear makeup or to want to look pretty and modest. I mean most Muslim girls I know wear a ton of makeup but are still modest. Modern Orthodox Jewish women would want to look stylish as well as covered up.

Also, going to have to defend Olivia on the makeup thing - she really does not wear 'too much' makeup, and I think it's pretty unfeminist to say that. I mean my best friend wouldn't get recognised by the neighbours without her makeup - she's ginger and has no eyebrows or eyelashes without it! I love wearing makeup for its own sake, it's fun. I don't see how that makes me 'immodest', it's not for anyone else.

[calimojo]

The definition of modest varies from group to group, and from culture to culture. For example, non-Christians obviously don't care what Paul said.

Plain dressing is a value for some, but not others. I've heard some others talk about putting the emphasis on the face, not other body parts.

The point I am trying to make is that the Duggars and their ilk ascribe to modesty because they feel it has a biblical foundation. So, if they are following the bible, then modesty isn't about wearing skirts, or high necks, it is about the attitude of dress, not being showy with wealth and overly ornate. I would assume that the Duggars read the words of Paul, as I have seen them quote from 1st Timothy etc. Paul speaks out against elaborate hair and ornamentation that flaunts wealth and arrogance.

I am not personally blaming the Duggar Girls, as they were raised this way, but just trying to point out that the Duggars and the other Gothard followers will talk a ton about being modest as ascribed in the bible, but they are clearly missing the point of what the bible actually says about modesty.

I am saying that the source they point to as a guide in their life is being misunderstood and misused by them.

I realize that other cultures and religions will define modesty differently.

[nelliebelle1197]

Yeah I don't think it's immodest to wear makeup or to want to look pretty and modest. I mean most Muslim girls I know wear a ton of makeup but are still modest. Modern Orthodox Jewish women would want to look stylish as well as covered up.

Also, going to have to defend Olivia on the makeup thing - she really does not wear 'too much' makeup, and I think it's pretty unfeminist to say that. I mean my best friend wouldn't get recognised by the neighbours without her makeup - she's ginger and has no eyebrows or eyelashes without it! I love wearing makeup for its own sake, it's fun. I don't see how that makes me 'immodest', it's not for anyone else.

Saying someone wears too much makeup is not an "unfeminist" thing to say and no one is saying makeup is immodest. The whole point is that Olivia is a hypocrite because her bible preaches modesty from a more pure point of view- it's not about YOU wearing makeup. It is about Olivia's immodesty.

Saying something is "unfeminist" and then not backing it up with any sort of reasoning other than your opinion of what is too much is annoying, frankly. Someone's opinion on makeup is not inherently unfeminist just because make up. In the view of many feminists, you are not a feminist at all because you are buying into male beauty standards for women by making up your face, no matter who you say you are doing it for.

[FoxyMoxie]

But other Christians will still define modesty differently too. Your personal interpretation of what the Bible says about modesty is not universal. The Duggars and others are allowed to define it differently.

[FoxyMoxie]

Saying someone wears too much makeup is not an "unfeminist" thing to say and no one is saying makeup is immodest. The whole point is that Olivia is a hypocrite because her bible preaches modesty from a more pure point of view- it's not about YOU wearing makeup. It is about Olivia's immodesty.

Saying something is "unfeminist" and then not backing it up with any sort of reasoning other than your opinion of what is too much is annoying, frankly. Someone's opinion on makeup is not inherently unfeminist just because make up. In the view of many feminists, you are not a feminist at all because you are buying into male beauty standards for women by making up your face, no matter who you say you are doing it for.

Actually calimojo and ExCatholic both implied that wearing 'too much' makeup was immodest. I am happy to take my comment back if they say that it's not immodest.

I didn't think it was necessary to say why saying someone is wearing 'too much' makeup is unfeminist, but apparently it's not obvious to everyone. Saying that someone is wearing 'too much' makeup because the neighbours didn't recognise her without it is saying that women have a duty to be discreet and follow acceptable levels of dress, makeup etc. Women are constantly being told that they are 'too much', from their makeup to how loud their voices are. It's also not up to anyone else to tell someone how to dress - I realise this is what Olivia does, but doing it back to her is just hypocritical. I'm not saying that someone's opinion on makeup is inherently unfeminist because makeup, I'm saying it's inherently unfeminist because it's dictating to women what they are and aren't allowed to wear based on some arbitrary standard of 'too much'. That's pretty much feminism 101, no?

This is why women who say that I'm not a feminist at all because I wear makeup fail - aside from not understanding the definition of feminism (ie it's not based on how much or how little makeup you wear), it's ultimately up to me to choose to wear makeup or not. It's also possible to wear makeup in a way that is not attractive to men - I mean when I wear green lipstick, it's hard to see how that's part of male beauty standards when most men wouldn't find it attractive. Also, wearing makeup is a sign of solidarity and power for lots of different groups of women - the kind of feminism you're describing does not sound like intersectional feminism. So while there is a valid argument for buying into male beauty standards, it depends on how you wear makeup and if you're part of a group that is affected by male beauty standards in the same way. Not all groups of women are affected by them in the same way.

[ExCatholic]

I almost included a paragraph about how I don't think makeup in itself is immodest in my original post, but I decided against it because it's hard to type on my phone. Guess that'll teach me to be lazy!

Makeup is not immodest, makeup is not unfeminist, makeup is not anything but makeup. Just to throw that out there! Likewise there's nothing wrong with wanting to look pretty, or stylish, or feminine, or modest, or whatever. I would argue though that modesty would mean avoiding excess in any capacity,and that's what bothers me about Olivia. Back to the swimsuit example, is it modest to wear something you know will make you stick out like a sore thumb? Wouldn't it be more modest to wear something that won't make you the center of attention?

It just seems to me like Olivia has very strict rules (skirts must be a certain length, tunics must cover her butt, etc) that came from...where? Who decided this was the definition of proper Christian modesty, and why does this young girl think she can lecture about it?

[nelliebelle1197]

Um, no, they are saying in context that women who run around brandishing modesty as if it is the only worthwhile value in a woman then slather on a ton of makeup to draw attention to themselves are not modest. Context, dear. Go back and actually absorb the context. You did need to support your reasoning because your argument had nothing to do with what was actually being stated.

Feminism has nothing to do with being free from criticism, by the way. Calling a woman "unfeminist" because they disagree with your conclusion (which was actually based on taking a statement out of the obvious context of its meaning) is censoring thought, which is likely the most "unfeminist" thing you could do.

If you would like a little education on women, self image, perception and feminism, check out Naomi Wolf and Simone de Beauvoir. I would also advise Sarah Evans' Personal Politics. It is quite an eye opener.

[nelliebelle1197]

But other Christians will still define modesty differently too. Your personal interpretation of what the Bible says about modesty is not universal. The Duggars and others are allowed to define it differently.

There is this pesky little problem with this statement. Words have meaning. Meanings can be interpreted different ways, but there are still basic definitions of words. Paul instructed Timothy on the dress of women using the Greek word kosmioi (orderly, respectable),- women should not be flashy in dress or call attention to themselves with braided hair and golden jewels. It had nothing to do with the legalistic views of people like the Duggars/ATI and IFB folks. I don't know if you have ever been exposed to these people first hand, but I went to an IFB school in which boys' hair was measured and girls' skirts were checked. Apparently, Jesus had a ruler and measured the apostles' hair length every day. :?

These people do nothing but call attention to themselves and make modesty an idol (h/t Steve Maxwell). They reinterpret a simple response by Paul to Timothy in regard to a first century problem with women paying too much attention to their dress in church into a legalistic rule about how long a woman's skirts should be. It is not a matter of personal interpretation; it is what the words actually mean.

[DGayle]

She has this very nice, basic, wardrobe with some good suggestions of where to find things super cheap. The priciest thing is $25. EXCEPT for the denim skirt that she designed, that will sell for $78. :shock: I guess she's not actually selling it yet, but, is it just me, or does it seem like really, really bad marketing to list your one item in a piece about budgeting, and have it cost 3 times what any other item costs?

$78 is a lot of money for a no-name denim skirt. I can buy at least 2 from Old Navy for that much, that look the same. I agree it's strange marketing to talk about budget budget budget, then her own high-priced skirt.

[nelliebelle1197]

$78 is a lot of money for a no-name denim skirt. I can buy at least 2 from Old Navy for that much, that look the same. I agree it's strange marketing to talk about budget budget budget, then her own high-priced skirt.

Yeah, you could actually get a whole wardrobe this week from Old Navy for $100!

[Coco]

If you would like a little education on women, self image, perception and feminism, check out Naomi Wolf and Simone de Beauvoir. I would also advise Sarah Evans' Personal Politics. It is quite an eye opener.

Thank you for those recommendations. That is going to be some interesting reading. :)

[nelliebelle1197]

Thank you for those recommendations. That is going to be some interesting reading. :)

I adore Sara Evans' Personal Politics!

http://www.hist.umn.edu/people/profile.php?UID=s-evan

It totally informed my early 20s.

If you are checking out Simone, start with The Second Sex. It is a foundational work of modern feminism and plays off Heigel's idea of the "other" and posits that gender is a construct divined to feed a patriarchal structure. Make sure you get a later translation of the work; the earlier ones are really poor translations and leave out a whole bunch of good stuff. She was a an obsession of mine for a long time; I even took graduate philosophy courses on her when I should have been working on my historical research for my actual degree!

[Coco]

I adore Sara Evans' Personal Politics!

http://www.hist.umn.edu/people/profile.php?UID=s-evan

It totally informed my early 20s.

If you are checking out Simone, start with The Second Sex. It is a foundational work of modern feminism and plays off Heigel's idea of the "other" and posits that gender is a construct divined to feed a patriarchal structure. Make sure you get a later translation of the work; the earlier ones are really poor translations and leave out a whole bunch of good stuff. She was a an obsession of mine for a long time; I even took graduate philosophy courses on her when I should have been working on my historical research for my actual degree!

That's the one i added to my wishlist. :D i'll make sure i get a more recent version.

[ExCatholic]

Yeah, you could actually get a whole wardrobe this week from Old Navy for $100!

Yeah, it's a nice looking skirt, but wow pricy for a girl from a mega family who likely doesn't have much of a job. I can't fault the girls in these families for trying to make a buck in any way possible - if I was forbidden to work outside the home I'd probably try to start a business too just to have something to do besides read the bible and clean - but I don't know that this particular business is sustainable. But what do I know? Maybe there's really a market for custom order denim skirts. She DID raise an awful lot of money in her kick starter. Maybe I'm biased because I've never found a denim skirt that doesn't look horrible on me, lol.

Now I want to revisit some of my favorite feminisit readings too. Darn it, FJ sucks all the spare time out of my life.

Edited because I have spare time, not spare Tims. Good job phone.

[nelliebelle1197]

Yeah, it's a nice looking skirt, but wow pricy for a girl from a mega family who likely doesn't have much of a job. I can't fault the girls in these families for trying to make a buck in any way possible - if I was forbidden to work outside the home I'd probably try to start a business too just to have something to do besides read the bible and clean - but I don't know that this particular business is sustainable. But what do I know? Maybe there's really a market for custom order denim skirts. She DID raise an awful lot of money in her kick starter. Maybe I'm biased because I've never found a denim skirt that doesn't look horrible on me, lol.

Now I want to revisit some of my favorite feminisit readings too. Darn it, FJ sucks all the spare time out of my life.

Edited because I have spare time, not spare Tims. Good job phone.

But if you had an extra Tim, think of all the time you would have!

[church_of_dog]

But if you had an extra Tim, think of all the time you would have!

I had to look to see if she was perhaps a Canadian, because I thought maybe she was bringing coffee and donuts for everyone! :lol:

[ExCatholic]

I had to look to see if she was perhaps a Canadian, because I thought maybe she was bringing coffee and donuts for everyone! :lol:

Oh the Tim I know manages to make every task take twice as long as of should! Tim the time eater!

Now I want Tim Horton's. Alas I am not Canadian! Very fond memories of my trip there though. At least I have two more Thanksgiving dinners to console me!!

Wonder what Olivia would think of my mother in law? A wonderful, warm, giving woman who either isn't wearing a bra or is wearing one you can see from all angles. Oddly enough she calls herself Christian despite being a brazen hussy!

[catlady]

I had to look to see if she was perhaps a Canadian, because I thought maybe she was bringing coffee and donuts for everyone! :lol:

hahaha! TimBits, anyone?!!!

[August]

YESSS. I find this contradictory attitude within a certain minority of people in the rock/punk/goth scene. While most of us have our own individual style, like what music we like and not just respect but positively embrace other people's differences to themselves, I've met one or two with a really snobby attitude to music or fashion. Those people think that you have to listen to certain bands or you're not "truly" alternative. Or that you shouldn't wear Vans trainers if you don't listen to a lot of rock. Who cares? This kind of snobbiness is what punk in particular is supposed to be rebelling against. Worse still, the people I'm thinking of were in their late 20s to early 30s when this is the kind of mentality you'd expect from schoolkids.

Conformists!

[DGayle]

Yeah, it's a nice looking skirt, but wow pricy for a girl from a mega family who likely doesn't have much of a job. I can't fault the girls in these families for trying to make a buck in any way possible - if I was forbidden to work outside the home I'd probably try to start a business too just to have something to do besides read the bible and clean - but I don't know that this particular business is sustainable. But what do I know? Maybe there's really a market for custom order denim skirts. She DID raise an awful lot of money in her kick starter. Maybe I'm biased because I've never found a denim skirt that doesn't look horrible on me, lol.

Her target audience is going to be religious people into the fundamentalist idea of modest. Let's be real. How many of those mega-families can afford $78 for a skirt? Especially when there are cheaper alternatives? If you don't have a lot of money, it won't matter that her skirts are made in the US (right?), or somewhere else. I think she needs to study her target market, and think about how much money her market will really have, and polling her friends about how much they'd pay doesn't cut it. Even if they buy a skirt each, they aren't going to buy enough to keep the business going.

So I agree. I don't think this is sustainable.

[FoxyMoxie]

There is this pesky little problem with this statement. Words have meaning. Meanings can be interpreted different ways, but there are still basic definitions of words. Paul instructed Timothy on the dress of women using the Greek word kosmioi (orderly, respectable),- women should not be flashy in dress or call attention to themselves with braided hair and golden jewels. It had nothing to do with the legalistic views of people like the Duggars/ATI and IFB folks. I don't know if you have ever been exposed to these people first hand, but I went to an IFB school in which boys' hair was measured and girls' skirts were checked. Apparently, Jesus had a ruler and measured the apostles' hair length every day. :?

These people do nothing but call attention to themselves and make modesty an idol (h/t Steve Maxwell). They reinterpret a simple response by Paul to Timothy in regard to a first century problem with women paying too much attention to their dress in church into a legalistic rule about how long a woman's skirts should be. It is not a matter of personal interpretation; it is what the words actually mean.

Except that personal interpretation is kind of key to Christianity. I don't know if you are a Christian, but words meaning things doesn't prevent personal interpretation. Just from a personal perspective - as an Anglican who would not use the Bible alone but also Experience, Tradition and Reason (ie the Wesleyan Quadrilateral) I would interpret those verses not literally, but as talking about a show-offy manner. I wouldn't say that it literally forbids plaiting your hair. For myself and others from non-Biblical-literalism denominations, personal interpretation is perfectly valid. Even with the Duggars, I may not agree with them but I respect their right to interpret the Bible differently to me. Of course, when it comes to forcing children to dress a certain way that is different.